Duluth East's Coach Randolph fired

diskman
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wreath sales

Post by diskman » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:25 am

No kid should have to sell a wreath before he has made the team. Wreath sales should happen AFTER tryouts or should be done by returning varsity players only. I think that is what most schools do. If there is summer fundraising going on, it should be done by returning players and there should be a buyout option for families that want one. <p></p><i></i>

brotheristhecoach
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Re: Duluth East's Coach Randolph fired

Post by brotheristhecoach » Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:01 pm

Okay, smart guys. How would you cut a player? post a list? call home? give them secret envelopes? meet individually? meet as a team? the fact is, there is no easy way to cut players from a program. No matter how you do it, the kid and family are hurt. They have invested time, energy, and lots of money to get to this point and it is now over. If you know a good way of informing a player, please with all of your expertise, enlighten us. Do you honestly believe a coach enjoys cutting players. Then you are truly ignorant. The two most stressful times in a coaches season are the cut to make the final roster and the decision on the tournament team. Do you think that is easy. You try informing players. <br><br>As far as the garbage about communication. What is good communication. Tell them everything? then what happens when a kid is struggling? parents take offense, kid takes offense, friends take offense. Should a coach have weekly strategy meetings with the parents to discuss game plans? How about line combinations and why. Do I get to go to your workplace and secondguess all of your decisions. How long would you last? <br><br>Randolph was a coach that did what all high school hockey coaches are asked to do: win games and don't abuse kids. As far as the gun in the head references. Where are the parents?? If a kid is putting that much stock into hockey, that is a parental problem not a coach problem. If Randolph doesn't win but has great communication and doesn't sell wreaths. He gets fired.<br><br>Good luck starting wreath sales after teams are picked. That's a great idea.<br><br>Most of you will never have the opportunity to wrestle with all of the above decisions, you should count yourself as lucky. <p></p><i></i>

jc
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Re: another view

Post by jc » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:35 pm

I was sure impressed with the posting by tx hockey. As a former player, a brother to a player and a coach it is quite a perspective. <br><br>As a coach of a AA team in minnesota, my dream job, I wanted to respond to his posting. It made me think about why I coach. I used to think that the state tourney was it for me, the main reason to coach. The young men I coach need so much more then that hockey part of it. If the story of tx's brother is on target, what a sad way to try and motivate a player. It's outdated and unnecessary-there are so many different ways to get the best out of a player. Don't get me wrong-there are times when any coach gets on a player. Would a coach want this type of treatment for their own son?That is what I ask myself, how would I want my son to be treated. I would want a person like txhockey to coach my son, if I had one, any day over a coach that used "mind games" like the ones mentioned to intimidate and embarrass these young men. I'm not saying that coach randolph repeatedly did that, but if that is his style does it belong in high school athletics? Was that the reason they have been so successful? I highly doubt it. <br><br>We need coaches like txhockey to stick with the coaching profession. You are the kind of coach that would get the best out of your players, but also teach them about life too.<br>There are more headaches then I could ever imagine, but if you don't do it, who will? That is a quote my dad told me when I thought about calling it quits last year. Thanks for the post. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

ChrisK
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brotheristhecoach

Post by ChrisK » Thu May 01, 2003 8:25 am

brotheristhecoach, you raise some valid points. As purely a spectator with no ties at all to the Duluth East program, I can only view things from the outside. I realize that coaching is a very difficult job and that cutting players is one of the hardest parts of that job. There is no easy way to do it. Ideally, I would think you'd want to do it in a way that does not humiliate the player and also, if possible, explain why he was cut and if there are things he can do to improve and have a better shot at making the team next year. A parallel example would be firing someone from a job, it shouldn't come out of the blue unless the offense is egregious and that person should know that he's on a thin line and what he needs to improve or fix to keep his job. Things are not always ideal so it's not always possible to handle cuts as well as one would like, but because of the emotions already involved in the situation it should be done as professionally and unemotionally as possible. Cutting a player on the bus before a long bus ride home, to use an incident that someone has alleged, does not strike me as the best way to do it.<br><br>Since I was the person harping on communication let me respond. I'm not advocating weekly strategy sessions with parents or anything like that. By communication I mean that the players should know their roles and what the coach's expectations are. I'm not opposed to playing mind games with players to motivate them (see Herb Brooks circa 1980), but I don't think most 16-18 year olds are emotionally mature enough to handle them. Communication also involves figuring out how best to motivate a kid. In Vince Lombardi's day a coach could be a complete hardass but today's coach is required to use more finesse to motivate his players. Clearly Mike Randolph knew how to motivate players judging by his record but did it come at the expense of kids like txhockey's brother? I don't know, but it sounds like it might have. Maybe he's in a Catch-22 situation, but he won, he sold wreaths and he got fired anyway. <p></p><i></i>

BigFishLittlePond
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Coaching

Post by BigFishLittlePond » Thu May 01, 2003 9:55 am

To me it looks like coaches would be better off by keeping 20 kids and playing each of them equally regardless of ability or outcome. If Mike Randolph never cuts a senior, never benches anybody, and wins about 50% of his games he probably still has a job... but nobody would know who he is and nobody would care about Duluth East hockey. Is that what people want? Because that is where society is heading... <p></p><i></i>

txhockey
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great point, chrisk

Post by txhockey » Thu May 01, 2003 10:26 am

i kind of feel like maybe we should be starting another thread about coaching education. <br><br>i just read that chrisk thread, and i was thinking of posting almost the exact thing yesterday. we call those exit interviews, and we do alot of them with the hs team that i coach. we dont hold cut interviews, because i am in a neat position that we dont cut anyone. i am allowed to roster 30, and most likely only 20 - 24 kids come out. so instead of cutting kids and taking only the kids who we feel will help the team, i take them all because i feel our staff can develop them for the future. we sit down with parent and player to discuss this situation. because these kids can always play mg or ba and get more playing time. we lay it on the line and let them decide if they want to stay. in the 5 years that i have been coaching our hs team, only 1 player has opted to leave. and that player came back and played the following season.<br><br>and, we do hold exit interviews at the end of the year with every player. if a parent asks to sit in, we usually permit it. in these meetings we tell the underclassmen where they began and where they ended, what they need to work on in the summer and so on. to the seniors, we do alot of the same, except we ask them what if anything do they want from the game in the future. do they want to play at the next level, do we think they can (and most of our guys go jr b, or club hockey in texas - but it is still the next level for us), do they want to get into coaching, etc. and then we try to help them with this. any player who wants to try, we help. i dont want a kid to look in the mirror and say "i wonder" or "could i have" or "coach didnt let me try". they wont know until they try. <br><br>when i was a ba coach a couple of years ago (alot of coaches take 2 teams a season down here), we held meetings with the kids we cut. i felt this did 2 things, 1) it gave a kid a reason why, it gave them what we felt they needed to work on and 2) it gave the kid and parent a feeling that we did watch their kid and we gave them a chance to make the team. alot of parents i would talk to after cuts, always said - they never gave him a chance. there was too many players out there, they did not look at my kid or they watched him once and decided. <br><br>alot of people have said is there a right way, i dont know. we feel our way is pretty good because we are letting the players know why we cut them. do they always agree with it, no. do parents always agree with no. and brother is right - it is the most difficult thing for a coach to do. but, why not try to to make it worth something. cutting a kid with no reason or communication does not help the kid or your program. dont you want kids that are cut, walking away and working on things that will help the program in the future. maybe the kid gets it, and comes back the next year and makes the team. now you have developed the program.<br><br>and chris k put another neat thing in there about talking to players. we talk to players about potential line combos. who would they like to play with, etc. we dont always follow their requests, and we explain why. but they do feel like they have had a little input. we talk about systems, we ask during the game - what are they doing - what are you seeing. we talk to our goalies, what warmup do you want, etc. we give them a little piece of the action.<br><br>i took alot of x's and o's from coach. and at first i was a carbon copy of coach, everything from dealing with players, teaching systems, dealing with parents. but mistakes were made and i was not sure if i had his way in me (well, i did until i saw the effects from a personal view), and i moved to texas to start a hockey program at a new rink. if you really want to relearn the game or fine tune your philosophy, go to a new program. i have learned more about the game and myself by doing this. when you have to teach offsides, and basic puck control, you find creative ways of teaching. and sometimes when all you get is the best, you dont realize how to communicate the little things. when i first moved here, i held a clinic and told the guys - on the whistle pick it up. and you know what they did. they stopped and picked the puck up and held it up for me to see. talk about relearning how to communicate. and i still learn everyday when i step on the ice with the guys. <br><br>anyway another long post. sorry.<br><br>go hounds. <p></p><i></i>

romie10
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What a mess....

Post by romie10 » Thu May 01, 2003 11:56 am

As some of you may know who I am, I am one of the 5 coaches on the East High School staff. I ran the forwards on the JV program. As this past week's events have certainly shocked all of us, I am confident that the program at Duluth East will prevail despite what may occur in the future, at least that's my only hope. As another former player at East (in addition to the many that have been writing on this forum), I have found all of your ideas, opinions, and suggestions very interseting to be generic. <p></p><i></i>

Raiderhockeyisgreat
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Re: Duluth East's Coach Randolph fired

Post by Raiderhockeyisgreat » Thu May 01, 2003 12:07 pm

If you don't have the guts to look a player in the eye and tell them why you aren't going to take them, you aren't much of a coach. There are many types of communication styles out there, ranging from real open and personal coaches to the old school of take it or leave it, but any coach who can't do that is a coward and will always have problems eventually. <p></p><i></i>

doeislandguy
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Romie10

Post by doeislandguy » Thu May 01, 2003 12:27 pm

Does your AD have any kind of evaluation system that he sits down with coaches and go over it with them? It seems these concerns could have been ironed out along the way if the AD was being proactive. Or is Miernicki another fat-cat, collecting the big money, not trying to rock the boat (DECC), which-ever way the wind blows kind of guy, on his way out himself and is letting his coaching staff fend for themselves? Has he taken a stand and lost or just lined up behind Knapp in this mess? It seems like the school was hoping to give Mike enough rope to hang himself. We'll see who has the last laugh. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

Eddie Shore
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Re: Romie10

Post by Eddie Shore » Thu May 01, 2003 12:43 pm

Perhaps Romie10 could confirm or deny, but it is my understanding the the AD at East has never coached a sport and is in his position as more of an "activities" director rather than an "athletic" director. Either way, I have not seen any comments from him regarding Randolph's dismissal. <p></p><i></i>

romie10
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Re: Romie10

Post by romie10 » Thu May 01, 2003 1:33 pm

As much as I'd like to confirm or disconfirm some of these questions that we all have, I refuse to make any speculative comments at this point on the basis that I found out the same way everybody else did - through the news. I can honestly say that I see good points in what everybody has said on this forum, as an influence to the program I have noted your opinions. Contrary to some ideas however, I wouldn't endorse the idea that Laurie Knapp necessarily has "it in" for anybody. I respect both Principal Knapp and Coach Randolph, they are both good people aside from how the media may taint either of them. It is clear that many issues have and will be addressed as a result of this happening, but I trust that all parties will find a mature, fair, and reasonable solution. The important thing to keep in mind over all is what's in the best interest for the kids. <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
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Re: Romie10

Post by goldy313 » Sun May 04, 2003 6:03 pm

I 've follwed this discussion fairly closely, reading the newspaper articles and such (thanks for the links). It seems to me as soon as you mix kids and money whether it be fund raising, shopping or using a coaches place of business, etc., it smacks of trouble. It's really easy to see where anyone could charge a coach with a conflict of interest charge. The school, as an entity unto itself, really has no knowledge of the cutting player process any coach has to do, but it can easily see where there could be a conflict of interest. I'm not defending the school by any means, obviously they allowed the wreath system to be put in place and should be subject to examination themselves. Randolph appears to be the fall guy for a system of fund raising gone awry. <br><br>It's not easy to pay for all the expenses, but kids should never be part of the fund raising duties. It justs stinks like a conflict of interest. <p></p><i></i>

Puckguy
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Board Meeting

Post by Puckguy » Tue May 20, 2003 3:14 pm

Should be a big night. Interested in hearing any feedback. <p></p><i></i>

east hockey
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Re: Board Meeting

Post by east hockey » Tue May 20, 2003 5:57 pm

If you have cable and live in Duluth, it's on channel 22 right now (Mike is speaking as I type this)<br><br>More later.<br><br>Lee <p></p><i></i>

east hockey
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A done deal

Post by east hockey » Tue May 20, 2003 8:23 pm

So, after nearly two and a half hours of speakers sidling up to the podium in support of Mike Randolph, Bob Mars of the Duluth School Board said, in effect, "thanks for coming, tough fecal matter, we acted according to state law"<br><br>BTW, did anybody understand a single word Doug Happy said?? He was the next-to-last speaker. Wow.<br><br>Congrats, Laurie Knapp. You should be proud tonight. <br><br>Good luck to whomever takes over the reins. Luck? Try a miracle. Marshall and other programs will be a huge benefactor of tonight's charade.<br><br>Lee <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
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Re: A done deal

Post by JLS 81 » Wed May 21, 2003 12:29 pm

The Coach Randolph story has been very interesting to follow for many reasons. I am certain all that have quipped on this matter have followed the story with great interest as well. We have now come full circle (at least in my view). We are now on a new playing field where parents (small percentage, mind you) and "do gooder" administrators have carte blanche when it comes to ousting coaches. Never mind winning tradition, success, the value of teaching life lessons. Sport is/was the last vestige in the public school system to mirror and train kids for life lessons. Ups and downs, work ethic, competition, striving to be the best, many great attributes. Life is tough, work is tough we all face great chllanges and many decisions once we leave the halls of high school. Was Mike Randolph fair? Probably not. Is life fair? Not always.<br>For every kid that feels wronged by Mike Randolph, you ought to research Kevin Gordons life story, a kid who was not allowed to play for Larry Ross. The Randoplh and Ross types believe it or not teach us great lessons of life. They are the types which push us to the limit and help us see what we are made of. I can look back on my 40 years of living and know well today that I thank God for the "S.O.B.'s he has placed in my way in life. <br>Can the same be said when it comes to Ms. Knapp and a few do gooder parents who work behind "privacy laws" and hidden agenda's? I seriously doubt it. <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
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Re: A done deal

Post by goldy313 » Wed May 21, 2003 3:17 pm

The news today said he lost is teaching posistion as well, is this true? Did it have anything to do with his alleged problems as hockey coach? Usually teachers are laid off strictly by seniority, and one would think 11 years would be enough to keep your job.<br> <p></p><i></i>

CanAm28
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Coach Randolph

Post by CanAm28 » Wed May 21, 2003 3:50 pm

I had not heard that his teaching job was ever in question, in fact the opposite has always been reported. The developments of the last four weeks were interesting to say the least. It seems that like in all great problems, it boils down to a lack of communication. I think there were issues with Coach Randolph, but I also think this whole deal could have been prevented with a regular "checks and balances" system. Like any breakdown in communications, both sides play a role. I hope something good comes out of this ordeal. I'm sure hockey at East will survive, and I'm also sure Coach Randolph will land on his feet and coach again. <br>And by the way, who is Doug Happy? <p></p><i></i>

east hockey
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Doug Happy?

Post by east hockey » Wed May 21, 2003 7:11 pm

I have <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> no </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> idea who Doug Happy is; I don't know what, if any, his connection is or was to East hockey. The guy had some serious issue with the school board on something which didn't appear related to Randolph. It appeared he was using the meeting as a forum for some other complaint. <br><br>That name is familiar to me, but I've racked my brain and can't remember where I've seen or heard the name before.<br><br>An, um...."interesting" individual.<br><br>Lee <p></p><i></i>

returnrandolph03
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Re: randolph not just a coach to his players

Post by returnrandolph03 » Thu May 22, 2003 6:31 pm

its enough to make my stomach turn 15 winning seasons and hes let go because of parents complaints. Complaints dont fire anyone but coaches, NOONE can please EVERYONE I bet there are a handfull of hockey fans out there who hate Wayne Gretazky, frankily Wayne is not "the great one" to me noone is born to play hockey or to be a good coach it takes hard work and dedication to become a star to me Mike Randolph is " the great one" not only did he teach his players about hockey but he also taught his players mautruty and to get good grades in school. me being a senior at East have seen a senior go from a 10th grade class clown to a senior whos matured a lot, totally different person somene youd never think of as a class clown. Also a sophmore ive known for the past few years whom ive had classes with also a class clown at the moment and his grades werent too swift but rand knew what he was doing and moved him down to JV Rand knew what he was doing he was more concerend in the kids grades than keeping him on varsity where he was hands down a great and skilled player and so Randolph was not only a great coach but also a great role model, teacher,and hero to those boys and another question in the paper on the 21st it said that they had not yet made a decision and im sure if rand lost his teaching job it'd be in the paper and i havent seen anything i could very well be wrong another thing you guys are all older than me so your probably wiser what could randolph have done illegal that would have lost him his coaching job but not his teaching job???????????? someones hiding something its either randolph or the school board COMEON GUY(S) FESS UP ALREADY!!!!!!!!! <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
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Hey Lee

Post by petey1321 » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:09 pm

Lee,<br><br>What's that stuff on the front page of your website about? Did somebody just print out this thread and send it to Randolph or something? If you're willing to share (and I'd wager you are, given it's on your website), I'd be much obliged. Or, you can just e-mail me if you want. Thanks. <p></p><i></i>

east hockey
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Re: Hey Lee

Post by east hockey » Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:10 pm

Petey, there was a story in the Duluth News-Tribune the morning of Mike's hearing before the school board where they said that a transcript of a "chat session" taken from minnhock.com was in Mike's file. Mike also made a comment about this when he spoke to the School Board that evening.<br><br>I remember the topic that probably was being referred to, and it had to do with the East-Greenway 7AA semifinal game. It "regressed" into a fairly heated debate pro/con Mike Randolph. I deleted a few posts which appeared in that thread which were out of bounds; whether the person who printed it out and sent it to whomever they sent it to caught those posts before I could delete them is in question.<br><br>The topic has since disappeared off the bottom of the pages in this Board.<br><br>Not so humble that I don't like my website being a topic of conversation, but what they (the School Board and Mike Randolph) said had no basis in truth. I thought I'd reply to it on my site in the hopes of avoiding having to reply to numerous emails.<br><br>Lee <p></p><i></i>

EastHky2006
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randolf

Post by EastHky2006 » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:45 am

been the best hockey coach in northern minnesota for the last 10-15 years. hopefully they'll give him another chance. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
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Re: randolf

Post by joe lulic » Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:43 pm

I dont know anything about East hockey nor the atmosphere in Duluth. But I do know that anytime anyone is around as a coach for 15 years, you are going to have enemies. If it isnt some one you cut, it will be someone you never used on the powerplay. Or maybe it will be some one you said something too who took it the wrong way. <br><br>For every player you take a piece out of to get him to play to his potential and who will appreciate the butt kicking for the rest of his life, there will be another one who calls you abusive. <br><br>For every kid who was able to play hockey because of the fundraising efforts you get involved in there will be another one who claims fundraising or contributions by others was the reason he was excluded. <br><br>For every kid who you give a chance to play, there is another one who had to sit or be cut.<br><br>For every kid you showed a special interst in and helped along the way, there is another kid who will cry favoritism. <br><br>Multiply that by 15 years and the odds are that some day somebody who you pissed off will be in a postion to burn you. I dont know much about all of this but that's what it sounds like to me. <p></p><i></i>

ChrisK
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Re: randolf

Post by ChrisK » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:21 pm

Joe makes the good point that a coach in a highly competitive and successful program like East's is going to find himself having to disappoint people which can lead to anger and resentment. The point that I've tried to make is that a coach should do all he can to minimize those feelings by being as fair and communicative as possible. txhockey did a really good job a few pages ago of explaining things a coach can do like exit interviews and allowing kids to share their ideas on line combinations. True some kids won't listen to any explanation when they're cut and will harbor resentment but there's no question that a coach that at least tries to explain himself will get more respect and less resentment. Even the hardnosed coach from Massachusetts (or Connecticut?) that someone posted about awhile ago had office hours when kids could come in and talk to him about the reasons why he cut them.<br><br>One other point that I'd like to make is that while I've pointed out the potential irony of a coach who allegedly didn't communicate well with his players when cutting them being fired with little warning or communication, that doesn't make the way the school board handled this right. <p></p><i></i>

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