Last Year High School Kids in the USHL

tarpaper
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:23 pm

Last Year High School Kids in the USHL

Post by tarpaper » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:30 pm

Current stats of last year's Minnesota kids playing in the USHL per Poinstreak website.<br><br>PLAYER TEAM POS GP G A PTS +/-<br>Borgen, Brent LIN F 14 5 6 11 4<br>Carroll, Andrew SF F 11 6 2 8 -6<br>May, Tom DM F 11 4 3 7 -3<br>Kilpatrick, Jimmy GB F 10 3 4 7 5<br>Kaufmann, Evan RC F 10 3 3 6 -7<br>Winter, Travis DAN F 12 3 2 5 3<br>Carlson, Corey RC F 10 1 4 5 0<br>Gordon, Ben LIN F 14 2 3 5 -7<br>Marshall, David CHI F 10 3 2 5 7<br>Obermeyer, Jake TRI D 12 1 3 4 1<br>Raboin, Garrett LIN D 13 0 4 4 -8<br>Swanson, John LIN F 7 3 1 4 0<br>Dey, Nate GB F 10 1 2 3 2<br>Ford, Matthew SF F 11 0 3 3 -6<br>Hillen, Jack TRI D 12 2 1 3 -3<br>Watters, Dave DM F 9 0 3 3 0<br>Menozzi, Bill SF D 10 1 2 3 -5<br>Hawkins, Ryan CHI F 4 2 0 2 0<br>Taylor, Mike GB F 8 0 2 2 1<br>Vadnais, John WTR D 7 1 1 2 1<br>Guyer, Andrew LIN D 11 1 1 2 -2<br>Anderson, Chris DAN D 11 0 1 1 0<br>Duncan, Josh WTR D 3 0 1 1 -3<br>Fox, Phil DM F 8 0 1 1 -3<br>Harrington, Brandon SF F 11 1 0 1 -9<br>Hoehn, Ryan DAN F 10 0 1 1 -1<br>Panchenko, A.J. DAN D 5 1 0 1 3<br>Petersen, Ryan GB F 3 1 0 1 -2<br>Regan, Garrett WTR F 10 0 1 1 -5<br>Stone, Jeff SF D 11 0 1 1 -9<br>Vesel, Jesse WTR F 8 0 1 1 0<br>Vossburg, Brandon SF F 4 0 1 1 1<br>Bostrom, Justin SC F 1 0 0 0 0<br>Dahlberg, Eric STL D 5 0 0 0 +4<br>Garrity, Sean GB F 5 0 0 0 -1<br>Hendrick, Ben F 1 0 0 0 0<br>Huck, Kevin CHI F 2 0 0 0 0<br>Malark, Lance RC F 4 0 0 0 -4<br> <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:04 pm

Re: Last Year High School Kids in the USHL

Post by bdabbt75 » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:32 pm

>>Harrington, Brandon SF F 11 1 0 1 -9<br><br>is it a good thing to be the 'most minus' in +- as a forward?<br>-9 has gotta hurt. I hope Brandon can weather thru it.<br><br>but ben gordon is -7... so it may not be so bad;-)<br><br>And Kevin Huck as reported here... he's now in Youngstown playing.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

eagle73
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:33 pm

Re: Last Year High School Kids in the USHL

Post by eagle73 » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:33 pm

Don't forget Troy Davenport, goalie who played for Simley, doing a fine job for Green Bay<br> GP MIN W L OTL SO GAA SV SV%<br> Davenport, Troy GB 10 570:42 5 4 1 1 26 2.73 290 .918 <p></p><i></i>

digity
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:17 pm

Harrington

Post by digity » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:30 pm

You got remember it's hard to be a plus when you team loses about every game. His team has lost the most games in the USHL and are off to a slow start. He's dressing in about every game and he's only a senior in high school. I guranttee that the expierence he is gaining losing games in the USHL is greater then what he would gain by scoring 75 points against class A competition. <p></p><i></i>

Brett11
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:01 am

Re: Harrington

Post by Brett11 » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:57 pm

<br>I agree with Digity. <br><br>The level of play in the USHL is light years ahead of MN Class A HS hockey. High school seniors in that league are 1-3 years younger than most of the players in the league.<br><br>Making a USHL team and getting playing time is much harder than making the first line on a MN Class A team. <p></p><i></i>

suomi27
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:55 pm

Harrington

Post by suomi27 » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:04 pm

I don't think the Ushl is light years ahead of Mn. high school hockey,The play is much more physical and faster though.Now that the Ushl is Teir I there are many more highschool aged kids. Harrington is a 1985 birth year , Here are the numbers from the teams 1987=16,1986=55,1985=96,1984=86,1983=31,so Harrington is really right in the middle age wise, not 1-3 years younger. He is a good player and his quick shot will get him goals. <p></p><i></i>

digity
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:17 pm

harrington

Post by digity » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:19 pm

I saw a lot of those players who are on that list and Ben Borgen is the highest on the points list with 11 which puts him in 21 place. If you look at the points list you'll see that Tom Pohl and Danny Charleston who played Minnesota hockey but, also have a few years of USHL expierence have been much more productive. The whole point that I was trying to make is if Brandon Harrington plays another year of juniors next year he'll be so much farther ahead then if he would be playing at Lourdes this season. These Minnesota kids who had so much success in high school are finding how difficult this league is and that will only help them develop into the best player they can be. And it is sad to say but, some will not have success in the league and not move on while others will. <p></p><i></i>

Sioux Fan
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:56 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: harrington

Post by Sioux Fan » Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:28 pm

<br>those numbers show the preparation that the current MN HS player has when moving to the next level. We need to make things more competitive for the better players. Learning how to make plays in tight quarters learning strategies that work in competitive environment. making the right decisions become 2nd nature. I think practice and not showcasing is what is required. Our top players need to be challenged. I think we have lost the ability to use the players in the 19 to 21 year pre-college jr age players to help develop our younger players is lost in our current Jr A program with players being located so far away from the "state of hockey"<br><br>I call for MN Hockey to develop a program where we can get the best of the best HS players to get access to a good Midget program in the fall and spring and then add 5 regional JR programs to keep our top players close to home. I know a lot of learning can come from practice sessions with the older jr players practicing with the younger HS players. This cannot be done with all the best older players being 500 miles away.<br><br>I think there is a reason the Slovaks and Czechs are doing so well the good younger players get to train and learn from the older players. This phenomana was apparent in places like Roseau, Warroad, were the younger players could stay and practice and learn the tricks of the trade from the older senior players. This could be regained by having 5 regional Midget and junior A teams in MN...<br><br>I think that the numbers above are very clear that the MN player struggles initially against the players that have experience with the tighter team oriented play of the USHL..<br><br>I think we can do better I think we should do it sooner instead of later.<br><br>I would like to be a part of it.<br><br>I also think we should have a program in each area for the HS Underclassmen freshman sophmores and juniors that could work with the midget team you could have a minor and a major midget team in each area and a junior A team.<br><br>I think it could be very good...<br><br>Brandon is strong and smart he will do fine. The adjustment period is to harsh from Section 1A to Junior A. I think players have a lot to do with their own + - numbers. I think it is hard for our elite guys to figure out that D is first and then the Offense is more frequent.<br><br>Oh well I think we could do better. I also think we should do the best for our kids.<br><br>Any one else think we can do better and have other ideas or know why my idea cannot be put together. I think it can and it should be done. I know if Shattuck gets 7 or 8 scholarships and their kids are ready to go straight to college that we can do it for the kids in the MN High Schools if we decide it is important.<br><br>Our kids need to be taught how hard to work how hard to compete and I don't think being told they are elite is a good way to get em there. <p>Hockey Nut in So. MN</p><i></i>

inthecorners
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:21 am

Sioux Fan

Post by inthecorners » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:21 am

"I think there is a reason the Slovaks and Czechs are doing so well the good younger players get to train and learn from the older players. This phenomana was apparent in places like Roseau, Warroad, where the younger players could stay and practice and learn the tricks of the trade from the older senior players."<br><br>Wouldn't it be cool if the seniors or "the best" players from each school or community "really" wanted to help other potential teammates instead of being more concerned with themselves? Maybe they are too worried about losing their own spot on the team! <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... corners</A> at: 11/6/03 12:24 am<br></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Doing better

Post by joe lulic » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:17 pm

Sioux Fan, I read your post ( it only took about an hour).<br>I agree with you except I would take it one step farther. Get rid of high school hockey. By that I mean take the schools out of it. Have a midget program start after bantams. Have it run by the community hockey programs. No private school phobia; everybody plays in their community as assigned by MN Hockey,no transfers or waivers; no 25 game restrictions; no begging for two more minutes per period; start the season in October, go till March; have a state tournament that would be better than we have now. <br>After they graduate from high school have a "senior "midget league for 19 and up. If you want to do better...well there it is. Every time I suggest this people make fun of me so go ahead. <p></p><i></i>

hockeytape
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:06 pm

sounds like coldwar Russia

Post by hockeytape » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:06 pm

Why the consternation over the top players.<br>Who determines "the top player". Once a top player always a top player? Socialism at its finest.<br><br>High school hockey is more about high school than hockey. Lets be realistic where most of our top<br>kids are going to end up. Getting an education in<br>high school and experiencing high school hockey<br>for the ~3000 varsity players seem to me more important than providing opportunities for 40 kids, of which probably only 4 will make it to the show.<br><br>I don't know, of the cuff it seems like its an elite suggestion.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

rams1981
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:10 am

Thinking out of the Box

Post by rams1981 » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:20 pm

Going back 60 years prior to the MSHSL I believe the Midget (HS) team in Roseau was sponsored by the American Legion Club. My point is joe makes an excellent suggestion. Let's look at it; with school budgets getting tighter and the expense of hockey in most school, there are a tiny few that actually operate in the black in the sport, most lose money. We operate the minor youth hockey system up until high school, is there anyone that really believes that clubs or local corporations wouldn't step to the plate to help sponsor a midget team? We would use the USA rulebook actually less confusion in rules for everyone: referees, players and coaches using one rulebook all the way up. One governing body. A coaching screening and education process already in place. Call it whatever; Midget or High School Hockey its all the same: High School aged kids playing organized hockey. We already have an A & AA system in place in Midget hockey meaning an A, B or even C level, take your pick. Maybe lulic isn't so far off base. <p></p><i></i>

Sioux Fan
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:56 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: sounds like coldwar Russia

Post by Sioux Fan » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:31 pm

I think that we have the resources in MN to finish our top end players and we can make the program broad and area driven by non-biased independent coaches and managers that have all the players best interests. I do like the broad HS participation I am talking about enhancing it to enable the players who have the drive ability and work ethic to make it at Junior A level and possibly college and pro level if we get them ready for the jump from HS to junior. I am saying we are not doing a good enough job of education regarding technique, competition skills and <br>general physical and mental preparation. I know we can do a better job so that our players who have the ability to make these regional teams will be given the ammunition. Also if a player didn't make it we could still give them the information and encourage them to go for it. I am in favor of having 30 man rosters on both a major and minor team. We can work together and have many high intensity practices. I also think it doesn't hurt to teach players to practice well. This will help them with the adjustment to juniors and college hockey too.<br><br>I am for inclusion not exclusion. I think a lot more guys with ability get excluded because they are not as far along regarding team skills and physical preparation as the AAA Midget kids from Michigan out east and even Texas and California..<br>Face it there are a lot of kids preparing for juniors and college and professional hockey than ever before. If we keep doing it like we always have guys will get eliminated before they even get a chance. That is all I am saying. I know that by enhancing our current HS programs we can get the message across in 16 weeks 8 in the fall and 8 in the spring. Also, players who play baseball and football and are great athletes should be given the information and told how to prepare and what is going to be the expectations. It is as simple as making the easy consistant steady plays with the puck and competing hard without the puck to get it back.<br><br>I love HS hockey and the tourney I want to enhance and by making a stronger program for the players who want to move on to juniors we will be able to keep our better players closer to home to enjoy more good games here in MN... <p>Hockey Nut in So. MN</p><i></i>

Dons
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:35 pm

Re: Doing better

Post by Dons » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:36 pm

joe-<br><br>I read the first couple lines and disagreed instantly, but then i took the time to actually look at your reasoning. i think that its too bad that it has come to this wehre the best solution is MAKING players play for one team, and putting an end to the private school issue, and transferring. to my dismay (and others) the state education system is not based around making a good hockey season and tournament. people go to private schools other than good hockey programs. i hate them just as much as the next guy, but let kids these days make their own decision to jump ship on their home town teams. your idea would set up it up to be as fair as it can be.....but how fun would it be to hate another team when you have no legit reason??? <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

No more high school

Post by joe lulic » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:15 pm

Dons, We could still hate each other. The rivalries would be intense. There wouldnt be a Cretin vs StThomas nor Hill vs White Bear but it would be community vs community (Roseau /Warroad) instead of school vs school.<br><br>I dont have anything against private or parochial schools. I have 3 kids that are in Catholic schools but they are there for reasons other than sports. It would be great, in my opinion , if they could go to school at Cretin and play sports for their community. But that would be just a side benefit. The best reason is for development. The MSHSL is concerned about education, not developing hockey players and rightfully so. So, lets' develop hockey players and let the schools educate. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

No more pencils, no more books...

Post by joe lulic » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:34 pm

I appreciate the intentions of those who want to enhance the high school experience. I just think the success in that regard will be very limited. We cling to our high school programs like a baby to his blankey while at the same time we talk tough about development and we have our elite leagues and we send kids off to God knows where to play hockey because we think high school hockey isnt good enough. <br><br>Maybe if we eliminated the schools from the equation, we could have better and broader based development. Maybe if we started in October and played 50 games we wouldnt need the elite league. Maybe after a midget season, kids would feel they have had enough hockey to be as good as they can be.<br> <br>The perception that high school hockey isnt good enough has created a culture and an industry that I dont like. Maybe its time to rethink the utility of high schools as to athletic development. Maybe its time for me to have a beer. <p></p><i></i>

Dons
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:35 pm

Re: No more high school

Post by Dons » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:35 pm

ya know you are right, to a degree. taht system has been implicated already with co-op teams. I just dont get how this would stop kids from jumpin teams? or wasnt that the original intent? would this system put an end to the A ,AA debate and turn it into one class? to tell ya the truth..i dont HATE private schools..its just..they are soo fun and easy to dislike, as are lots of stereotypical rich people. ive always said that the way hockey should be is kids growing up and idolizing the high school players all the way up until they were the local heroes. but doesnt look like it can happen with the politics in hockey these days...Good post JLulic <p></p><i></i>

hocke101
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:32 pm

High school

Post by hocke101 » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:13 pm

I think that High School hockey is the best experience in a persons life. Juniors College and even the Pros becomes too much of a buisiness and well it is great it is missing what high school is all about. As far as one set of rules as said above, I think the high school rules for off sides and two line passing are way better and make the games more fun to watch. There would not be the same rivalries the other way no matter how much you hyped the games up. I do like the before and after idea and I think that the Elite League, which is a great opportunity for the top players, should extend to after the season as well as it gets better every year. I plan on watching my kids play high school hockey some day and not for some midget team that was created so they could get to the pros. Many minnesota pro's have said that high school was the best hockey they ever played even better than the pros and college. <p></p><i></i>

wej
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:47 pm

talked to peterson

Post by wej » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:47 pm

yesterday i talked to brad peterson and now he's going back to the ushl. hes going to a practice this weekend or next weekend in des moines. congrats to him and hopefully he makes it.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

digity
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:17 pm

juniors

Post by digity » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:14 pm

"I think that High School hockey is the best experience in a persons life. Juniors College and even the Pros becomes too much of a buisiness and well it is great it is missing what high school is all about."<br><br>There are two different types of high school hockey players I think. There's the type who are playing hockey as something to do in the winter and hockey is not there life and they are involved in other sports and other activites in high school. There is nothing wrong with this and these kids should be allowed to expierence the other activties of high school.<br><br>So many Minnesotans have a dream of playing at the next level just as you see in every other sport(not playing at the next level unfortunatley is more of missing out then missing out from the high school expierence to some of them). The aurgment that Sioux Fan is making is how much is high school hockey(even the elite league) helping these individuals. Looking at the kids on this list there first year out of high school they are having a tough time adjusting. So many of the kids on that list who I have seen play in the past seasons have been dominating players at the high school level and they have been able to skate around oppents and score easily(once from talking to a kid in the USHL he said that 95% of the goals he scored in high school are not goals in this league). I'm a fan of high school hockey and I see the aurgment of hockey becoming too much of these kids lives. However, I'm also a fan of juniors, college and professional hockey and there is nothing better for me then to see a Minnesota kids exceed in all three of those levels. I just hope that these kids can get the prepartion and can accomphlish there goals and dreams and hopefully it can come from there local high schools. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
Posts: 3227
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

High school

Post by goldy313 » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:21 pm

Most every community already has a midget program and basically without exception these programs are inferior to there high school counterparts. Basically your trying to reinvent the wheel here, it (midgets) already exists, it is not popular here. The goal of programs should not be to produce better and better hockey players, the goal should be to provide opportunity for as many kids as possible to play. Kids will determine if and how they want to progress, some do some don't, but by making everything revolve around making better hockey players, the costs have skyrocketed, driving way to many families away. Has anyone noticed that to play high school hockey is $500 - $1000 cheaper than Bantams? Do any of you realize what the costs would be to change to a midget program? Sure drive more families out for the elite few who won't play past college anyway, and most past high school/midget. Ast is you can have your son leave and go play Juniors, heck even jr. B teams get more ice time and games than high school, but to try further a broken system that already favors wealth over talent is wrong and will further harm the status of Minnesota hockey. <br><br>We produce less talent because we have fewer kids playing hockey it is that simple, we have every advantage already built in, good weather, cheap ice, we can and should use these things to raise the level of the game, not by further making it an elitest sport. I would like to think most kids who stay with hockey past the PeeWee level stay because they want to play for their high school, not because they here the Lincoln Stars, or St. Thomas calling them. I think that is way to many parents dream. <p></p><i></i>

Sioux Fan
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:56 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: High school

Post by Sioux Fan » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:30 pm

I am talking about teaching players how to battle and play in traffic and win jobs at the next level.<br><br>I am talking about 5 regional teams to play pre and post HS season. <br><br>I am talking about a minor and major midget team and a possible junior A team for each region. I am talking about developing our players closer to home and without the large salaries and profits of the current Junior programs.. <br><br>Far too many teams for the output in regards to college scholarships. Also in junior hockey in USHL players that have injuries get nothing. I propose we get the teams to put money away for scholarships to boys who have career ending injuries.<br><br>I think we can do better right here in the State of Hockey I am not talking about the local Midget programs I am talking about players trying out for and earning spots on 5 regional teams run by people in each area that care about getting their area kids where they need to go.<br><br>I think it can be done better and cheaper and with more players benefiting if MN Hockey takes on the challenge and sets it up and doesn't blink. I think that if we could compete for the National Midget Tourney like Team Wisconsin and Shattuck we could get kids good scholarships right out of HS.. and we could further develop the players right here and we could all enjoy seeing them develop at games in the Cities Rochester Duluth and Grand Forks...<br><br>Wouldn't that be fun!!! <p>Hockey Nut in So. MN</p><i></i>

inthecorners
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:21 am

Sioux Fan

Post by inthecorners » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:23 am

For some reason it seems like you want your cake an eat it to. Sometimes you want better for all, then you want the best for the best. Could you clarify your point of view for all concerned?<br><br>I'm for giving all the kids the best opportunity possible without the "stuff" getting in their way. MENTORING in hockey could be just as educational as MENTORING in Math, Language, Biology....get it? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

High school confidential

Post by joe lulic » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:31 am

Goldy, the current midget or Jr Gold or whatever its called these days is inferior because every body is playing high school. If we shut down the high school system and channeled all of these kids into the community midget (or whatever you want to call it)programs, it would be anything but inferior.<br><br>The cost issue would have to be addressed. In most schools hockey is subsidized but not free. CDH had a $250 fee last year which I am sure will increase. We also have to consider revenue. How much does the MSHSL make on the State Tourney? Where does that money go? We could use it to reduce costs. Cost are an issue but goldy people come up with the money. They sacrifice so their kids can play, the same way a lot of people sacrifice to send their kids to private schools.<br><br> You say that we can raise the level and not make it an elitist sport. Thats where we are at now. I think taking it out of school would help reduce the elitism. It would give everybody a more developmental hockey experience not just the chosen few who make the team and can afford the off season stuff which is always more expensive. Sure kids want to play for their high school and of course people are going to say their high school hockey years were the best. Thats all we know. <br><br>My 7th grader plays for his association's peewee A team. He has a great time playing hockey and a great time at school, experiencing all the things a 7th grader does. He doesn't have to play for his school to have a good time being a kid. The kids on that team will go to 3 ,maybe 4 different high schools. I would like to see them stay together and play for their community regardless of where they end up.<br><br>I think it would be better developmentally and in time have all and more of the tradition and community involvement then the current system. <p></p><i></i>

hockeytape
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:06 pm

elitism

Post by hockeytape » Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:28 am

This an interesting thread with a lot of spinoffs<br><br>Joe, I would disagree that such a program would<br>reduce elitism. I think it would do the opposite "eg<br>The Elite Fall league". There are always the "choosen few" that make a team. I am not aware of any team at any age in any sport where in someones opinion<br>that has not been the case.<br><br>HS hockey is about friendship and opportunity.<br>It is about academics, hard work and teamwork. <br>I hope every kid fulfills their dreams and I think there<br>are more than ample opportunities to pursue it. <br>There are more colleges offering skating opportunities<br>and I imagine unfornuately in the coming years there will be less pro opportunities (collective bargining, cost of operation, escalating salaries) <br><br>Any subsequent program is about profitbility. Juniors is about businesses operating a business for a profit. New independent rinks are about profits. Any subsequent <br>effort is about profit. Does the Elite League make money? I expect someone is getting paid and attempting to collect profits. <br>High School hockey is about recreation and opportunity.<br>Changing that model in my opinion reduces opportunity and substantially increases cost. <br><br>I believe Michigan operates a club system. All i ever hear from Michigan is honeybaked and compuware.<br>I am sure there are comparable numbers of skaters in Michigan. How are their opportunites better than the high school system in Minnesota.<br><br>I don't know of any kids making house payments <br>from playing junior hockey. <br><br>Keep the participation in high school. For those so inclined let them go to the USHL, WHL OSHL etc.<br>Whenever anyone leaves, it simply provides an opportunity for another to develop. <br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

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