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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:31 am
by rustyblade
My thoughts: Keep H.S. hockey the way it is. Great season, 24 games plus playoffs. State Tourney for those who make it. Two divisions(personally I like one class). So called "elite" players can stay home, play for their team with their friends, or leave and pursue their dream of D-1 or higher. <br><br>If all "elite" players leave, so be it. The State Tourney will go on. Top talent may not be there, but if some do stay in school, they will become "stars" of the State Tourney and have memories of a life time. Some will even go on to play D-1 or higher.(wow)<br><br>Bottom line, don't mess with the State Tourney! Those that want to leave H.S. hockey - good luck! Those that want to stay, I look forward to watching youu play at "THE SHOW"! <p></p><i></i>

Re: HS/Ushl??

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:07 am
by every name i wanted was u
rusty. great post. yours is not alone however, i have enjoyed several on this subject. <br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF= ... used>every name i wanted was used</A> at: 11/13/03 11:08 am<br></i>


Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:20 am
by GB12
I agree with rusty completely. Those that want to leave...go for it. In my mind, if I was trying to get noticed I would rather be a big fish in a small pond versus a small fish in a big pond. Look at like B. Gordon for ex. everyone thought he was the secong coming of God last year but this year in juniors he has like 5 points and is a -7 in 16 games. Where would he get better attention based on what we see now?? In high school where he was a very good player with state wide recognition or muddling in juniors playing out of his element? <br><br>Yes, I do know that he didn't leave early by the way.<br><br>Just an example.<br><br>$275 is a tiny amount to pay compared to the $1000's to play Midgets. <br><br><br>Last many fans watch Shattuck regularily? about 50 at the most. I have been to lots of their games and the only time they get a draw is when they play high school teams. <p></p><i></i>

High School AGED hockey

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:49 am
by rams1981
People your missing the point, someone said midget hockey is crappy, yes it is right now but as was said earlier if hs hockey was taken out of the high schools, midgets would be fantastic because it would be the only avenue, like i said earlier you would have an A, B or C level. Stupid idea, not!! the kids would still be playing high school AGED hockey only under a different banner. GB12 you could still scout these kids, right??? No ones talking about an elite league but more flexibility than the high school league allows concerning scheduling and length of season. Most of the time it is not inter-school rivalries but inter-city rivalries. Roseau and Warroad are rivals at Squirts, Pee-wees and Bantams would it change at the Midget level I think not. People say no one would show up; wrong again, it would actually be promoted like it is now with the schedules that are printed and posted all over town and in the media. People say it would be more expensive I don't think so why? Either service organizations such as the JC's, the Eagles, the VFW, the Elks, the Moose, the Legion and whoever else is out there or even corporations would or could step to the plate because they would WANT to not because they HAVE to like our fellow taxpayers- it is done all the way up until high school why wouldn't that continue??. If you know the history of high school AGED hockey it was this way prior to the formation of the High School league. Looking back twenty years the only equipment that players had to supply was skates, jockey and mouth piece(if they wanted one from a dentist): sticks even used to be provided. It used to be free to play as a student not anymore. The player would still be a student-athlete because he/she is going to school, not because of playing FOR a school. High School hockey is great but people open your minds don't be so damn shallow, it's High School AGED hockey. Yes there would be problem with transfers, recruiting and leaving for different leagues what's the difference we have that now. Remember once you register with a team in USA Hockey it darn near takes an act of God to transfer that season so you have to make your mind up plenty early. I know alot of taxpayers would be grateful to not subsidize hockey, why should they, for any sport or activity for that matter. Am I convinced it is the right thing to do, no, but I can see where joe lulic is coming from. It's just an alternative for cryin' out loud; for a bunch of intelligent people here; there isn't much thinking out of the box. <p></p><i></i>

High school forever

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:55 am
by joe lulic
I am as interested in keeping "high school" hockey as anyone, just in a slightly different form which may include more of the good players, which is better for everybody. <br>"Dont mess with high school hockey". Its already been messed with. <p></p><i></i>

high on high school

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:35 pm
by joe lulic
rams1981 summariszes it well. The "only" material diffierence would be the elimination of the private school teams. For example, instead of a kid living in Bloomington and going to school and playing for AHA, he would play for either West(Jefferson) or East(Kennedy)Bloomington.<br><br> In most areas outstate, no one would even know the difference. <br><br>There actually would be no issues with transfers and recruiting if we followed the MN Hockey policy of everyone plays in their own assigned association. Boundries of the association are the same as the school district.<br>There would be better state tournament. It wouldnt be Anoka vs Holy Angels but it would still be Anoka vs Roseville etc <br><br>I have the same found memeories of high school hockey as everybody else and would like to have some more. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Re: high on high school

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:01 pm
by every name i wanted was u
aaa midget hockey the answer. we're asking the wrong questions. by the way what is the question anyway.<br>to make high school age hockey more desirable to the better player? to make high school age hockey more enjoyable for the fans? to make high school age hockey the best experience it can be for those who wish to participate? <br><br>can't follow how aaa midget could even get close to being an answer to any of these questions. ask michigan, wisconsin, illinios, new york hockey leaders if they would trade places with us and they would in a heart beat. minnesota high school hockey has the best of both worlds, individual development as well as the benefits of family, education, friends. some chose to leave this atmosphere but that does not prove that the product needs improvement, because improvement or not those individuals will leave regardless. if anything aaa would have the opposite affect. look at canada, aaa midget is looked at as a wasteland with the better players all aspiring to play juniors. many leave midget hockey to play junior b. bringing midget hockey in to replace high school and you'll start losing 16 year old players to junior b hockey.<br><br>further more high school hockey has a built in fan base, the student body and their parents. larger crowds than any aaa midget team could ever hope to draw. aaa midget teams in canada draw 300-500 tops and that is in small communities where there is nothing else going on. crowds in minnesota for midget hockey would be parents and other parents.<br><br>i wholeheartily agree with rusty. the product is excellent. the elite fall league isn't perfect (kids from the far north and south have more difficulty participating), but the elite league i believe does allow for kids to play more and be less tempted to leave high school, which is great in my opinion. when a kid does decide to leave and play junior i say good luck and we'll watch you down the road in college when your playing with and against the same guys you are know in high school. <p></p><i></i>

High on high school

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:36 pm
by joe lulic
There is nothing new under the sun. The proposal to abandon the high school system is really a propsal to return it to the way it was years ago. People want to preserve high school hockey. Which version of it? It is a lot different today than it was 40 years ago when I first remember watching it. <br><br>There was no open enrollment. Private schools werent allowed to participate. It was community based. <br><br>Now we have kids going from one end of the metro area to another to play for a private high school they have no connection with for maybe a year and then leaving for juniors and then maybe coming back to another high school that they left originally. What a great tradition. Is that what the people in Michigan wish they had? <br><br>People cling to the Elite league like it is some kind of life raft for the good player. Why? Why not upgrade the whole thing for everybody. Why are we convinced that the Elite league is good and keeps players here but that an upgraded high school age program wouldnt? <br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Re: High on high school

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:42 pm
by every name i wanted was u
"upgrade the whole thing for everybody". what does this mean?<br><br>to answer the final question. aaa midget hockey would lead to even more kids leaving communites to play elsewhere. trust me. <p></p><i></i>

High school high

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:41 pm
by joe lulic
It means make it better for everyone. We start on Monday. MSHSL rules say you cant start earlier.<br><br>The community programs have been going for 5-6 weeks and of course so has the Elite league.<br><br>The list of benefits of getting out from under the MSHSL has been discussed but the main ones are a longer season, more games, and longer games. Why do 14 year old Bantams (all of them) have a longer season with more games than an 18 yr old high school kid? <br>I think that is why people leave. <p></p><i></i>

Joe L is right

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:21 pm
by dumpitin
aaa midget hockey would be a good thing. all this talk about the elite league keeping minnesota's best in high school is bunk. most of minnesota's top high school players are not going anywhere except maybe to junior b if they want more games. Jr A hockey is loaded with talent from all over the US and the world. These kids are older, stronger and hungry. Hockey is not just a minnesota sport anymore and MN high school high is mediore at best when you look at the big picture. <p></p><i></i>

what a long strange thread this has been...

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:59 pm
by bdabbt75
rereading this thread...<br><br>starts with list of USHL with MN roots<br><br>a comment on one player's lack of production<br><br>a statement of how poorly his MN Class A HS life prepared him for Juniors, inferring a better pre and post season regimen could have prevented this. the author is misunderstood about several items relating to his suggested solution<br><br>then lots of breast beating and heel digging in on various statements.<br><br>Then we are running down the path of should we scrap the 'current' HS model with a 'midget model' run by the community hockey association. lots of issues for and against that.<br><br>and now the current model is so bad that our best skaters leave prior to graduation.<br><br>It's interesting to to see the conversation move from : "the current model leaves kids unprepared for leaving to the next level" <br><br>to : "the current model is driving kids to the next level early"<br><br>I think it's a little of both.<br><br>Me personally, I believe no model is perfect. As long as every high school gets to play no matter how bad, there will be some kids who feel that MN HS hockey is not competitive enough for them. If you lengthen the season, you'll just play more weak competition. The 'elite' and 'great 8' programs are more showcases than developmental camps. Project Prep was a 'better' model IMO but somehow the powers that be in MN Hockey don't think so. With the migration of Tier I JnrA to the dusty prairies, exacerbates the problem... it was nice to watch the 'moved to the next level' HSers play with the Mustangs... but now they play in Fargo, Topeka, and other places. We as youth hockey fans feel violated... our youth taken away in their prime.<br><br>My bottom line is that we have 2 problems... *participation* ('the state of hockey'... every high school child should have a chance to play HS hockey), and *excellence* (every year, the crop of MN players moving to the next level should be larger and more talented... all the way up the chain to the NHL, and then the Olympics... [I think those of us old enough want to know that 50% of the kids on the US Olympic team played either MN HS hockey or for the Gophers... preferably both;-)])<br><br>Can you serve both of these problems with one solution?<br>Or is the 'rest of the hockey world' driving us to their model, of midget AAA, junior B, Junior A, Tier 1 Junior A, major juniors, international recruitment, 21yo college freshman, 'hockey isn't fun... it's a business... 99% of the kids are grist for the process'<br><br>-bud <p></p><i></i>

was it worth it?

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:00 am
by inthecorners
1) Left High School after 11th grade for Juniors missing everything that goes with it.<br>2)After 1 year gets cut/traded/team folds<br>3)Year 2- hopes to get picked up by another team USHL, WHL, somewhere/anywhere (not mentally prepared to go to school...too worried about hockey), catches on with a team/settles in...for awhile...plays/doesn't play...excited/bumbed...gets traded/cut...settling in again/plays/excited or just left wondering...why didn't I just stay at home and...!<br><br>It happens!<br><br>Is it worth the risk? <br><br> <p></p><i></i>


Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:55 am
by m4hockey
<br>How interesting - has anybody asked the kids what they want to do?<br><br>I don't think my son would give up his high school hockey team for anybody. He loves playing for his high school. Why should hockey be different than football, basketball, etc.? <br><br>As for kids leaving - life is full of choices. Kids leave home during high school for many other reasons also, and it's not just hockey. <br><br>The top players that could play D1 or beyond will get noticed. Believe it or not, recruiters come to the high school games. <br><br>The Elite League has started a great program to help some of the top players get more/earlier attention. Not one person has mentioned how well the two Minnesota teams did in the last weekend of play against the out-of-state teams. Remember, these are all players coming out of our high school system - and they played great. <br><br>If Shattuck's claim to fame is beating the teams that were up here for the tournament, then Shattuck should be ashamed if they don't win national titles. Notice that Shattuck did not make it to the championship game, and I think either Minnesota team would have beat them. <br><br>There is no perfect system, but I don't know what you would accomplish by pulling it from the schools. Maybe before you waste all this energy discussing what should be, you should ask the kids. Isn't that what high school sports is all about?<br> <p></p><i></i>

hs hockey

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 am
by Mucker
i couldn't agree with you more m4hockey. Let's support and attempt to improve what we have here in minnesota. Society is pressuring kids to grow up too fast. Let the kids enjoy their friends, family and the whole high school experience. Don't take that away from them. <p></p><i></i>

paying for it.

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:26 am
by rams1981
now we're talking aaa midget NO just plain old USA hockey midgets or junior gold-for high school aged players. read the damn posts. doesn't matter football, baseball, volleyball, hockey and god-forbid basketball; why should the public have to subsidize these. does some 60 year old farmer in a school district that has a sports program and getting socked with massive taxes want to pay for it probably not. should he have to probably not, it kids playing games, is that the education he is paying for, yes a large chunk. education is about learning to read and write and cipher, it really isn't about scoring or playing with your buddies(the so-called bonding), the high school experience. just because it's been that way for 50 years does it mean it's right?? budgets all over the state are being cut, teachers are being laid-off and taxes are being raised. music and the arts are already being zapped all over why are sports a sacred cow, isn't phy-ed enough? is it time to zap activities than to zap an awesome young english or math teacher-probably. would I trade my high school sports experience, if there was another avenue available to play the sports i loved at the time absolutely. i still would have played games with my buddies I keep saying it-open your minds people. we have legion baseball, JO volleyball, pop warner football and USA hockey all of which are very successful. is it the schools job to provide sports for young people ABSOLUTELY NOT, it's their job to prepare a young person for real life, to be prepared to go out and go to college or get a job and provide for a family. do scoring goals or touchdowns prepare you for that-NO. talk about growing up too fast remember a hundred years ago people were married, working a ten-twleve hour day and raising a family usually by age 18. I believe we are coddling youngster today. maybe we wouldn't have so much crap going on with young people-drugs,sex, violence if they were forced to actually grow up and take responsibility....enough of a rant!! <p></p><i></i>

paying for it?

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:03 am
by m4hockey
<br>You want to pull sports out of high school. I am a public high school teacher - I know what keeps many of those students in school, and it's generally not the young English or math teacher! It's the sports. Many of the athletes stay in school because they can participate in the sports. The sports help keep them focused and on-task. <br><br>Pulling sports out of the high schools is going to create problems. The very students we want to stay in school may not be able to afford to participate anymore. You can talk about funding these sports, but it won't happen. You will just lose more kids and have something else to complain about.<br><br>Statistics show that students involved in extra-curricular activities <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><span style="text-decoration:underline">at school</span><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> perform better at school. We want these kids to graduate, get jobs, and then pay their taxes to support those good old farmers when they retire. <br><br>My dad was a dairy farmer, no one in my family played sports, and I never once heard him complain about paying taxes for schools. <p></p><i></i>

stayin in school

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:29 am
by joe lulic
m4hockey, Should we cater to the few kids who supposedly stay in school because of sports? Thats part of our problem , I think. Are sports a loss leader to education? We are in big trouble if that is the case.<br><br>Your point about students doing better if they are involved in extra curriculars is well taken. However, what study has been done to determine if kids who play in their community sports programs also do better? I bet you would find that kids who participate in sports do better no matter who they are playing for. <br> <p></p><i></i>

Re: stayin in school

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:46 pm
by every name i wanted was u
no more tax use for any extra school activities including sports, music, art, creative writing. why should i pay for sally to go on a choir trip to texas. <br><br>because i want each individual to explore their own interests.<br><br>i have never met an individual, in my community, which feels that all extra curricular activities should not be funded by the community. <br><br>please talk to a d1 or d3 coach sometime and ask them. is high school hockey in minnesota the envy of michigan etc.? <p></p><i></i>

Re: stayin in school

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:49 pm
by inthecorners
To try to continue support of this point read some of the posts on this thread: "Last Year's Best AA Seniors: Where Are They?"<br><br>Stayin in school will never be regretted!<br><br>If it is meant to be. It will happen.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src= ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>