Top boys' hockey talent from small schools often ignored

newkidonblock
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:32 am

Top boys' hockey talent from small schools often ignored

Post by newkidonblock » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:15 pm

Just read this at the tribune:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/526/ ... <!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br> <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Cupcake schedules

Post by petey1321 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:37 pm

It's tough to tell who the top players are when so many teams either play pathetic non-conference schedules or are simply in terrible confrences. Como Park beat Washburn 14-2 this year. 14 goals in a game. I can't remember the last time Jefferson did that to anybody, and they have had some teams who were considerably better than Como Park is this year. How do you properly judge points for players when their teams get 14 goals in a game against a terrible team? One way is to look at how they do against less terrible teams. Woodbury and Eagan, who aren't much to talk about, held Como to 2 and 3 goals respectively. If Kramer got every point in those games, then yeah, he's got something to talk about. He can talk about his 27 points in the Elite League...that's impressive. But, don't expect many people to care about getting 7 or 8 points against the little sisters of the poor, padding stats when guys in the Classic Lake or the Lake have no chance of EVER getting that many points in a game, as they simply play better teams. <br><br>The only way for kids on these teams and who play against these teams is to use something like the Elite League stats or performance in the Selects to compare them. <p></p><i></i>

hocke101
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:32 pm

Points

Post by hocke101 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:16 pm

I think that points can deceive somewhat but not completely due to schedules. A lot of these players mentioned play some easier games but also lack the talent to help them on their teams. I think the best way to judge talent is to go and watch them especially when they are playing in the tough games. Kramer is very impressive against good competition even though his team might not be. He might not get six points in those games but he will show why he is a top end player in the state. I think that with juniors and the elite league less of these small school players will fall through the cracks. <p></p><i></i>

minnhockfan22
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:25 pm

Re: Points

Post by minnhockfan22 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:25 pm

It may be true that some players not given the respect they deserve because they play for non powerhouses. But many of these kids are also overrated because of the competition like ambroz. Sure he is a good hockey player but not as good as he is made out to be. So I think it goes both ways a bit. <p></p><i></i>

hockey2AA
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:50 pm

Petey

Post by hockey2AA » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:50 pm

I don't understand what you have against the Kramer's. You were saying the same crap about his older brother last year. Another thing, Mike Kramer clearly posted numbers up in the National Select 16 tournament, regardless of playing on the horrible Dakota team. And you said yourself that it is impressive to put up numbers in the Elite league. I watched Como Park play Woodbury and Eagan. I believe he had 2 goals and 2 assists in the games? He was a complete standout and it was clearly obvious he did not get much help from his teammates.<br><br>These players should get the same recognition because they find ways to use what little talent is around them to succeed.<br><br>If you want to complain about running the score up in games, where is your comment about the Blaine vs. Centennial game? I think Gorowsky had 7 points? Correct me if i am wrong. But let's not be so quick to judge and criticize these players until we have the opportunity to see them play. <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Kramer

Post by petey1321 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:08 am

If that was taken as a criticism of Kramer, that was not how I intended it. What I'm saying is that him getting 80 points or whatever he's going to get is not what people should be using to judge him vs. other players. What people should be using is his Elite League stats to compare him with other players of that caliber. He put up some great numbers there, and he deserves credit for that. That was my only point on Kramer specifically.<br><br>It's great that the elite league gives us a chance to see guys against the same kind of competition to give us a better idea of individual talent, because everybody plays against different competition (and with different teammates), so it's impossible to compare across conferences and throughout the state.<br><br>As for what I said last year, I can't believe anybody remembers what I said last year. Surely nothing I said was that important. At any rate, looking back, Jon had 9 points in the last Elite League and Mike had 5. When Hawkins has 35 points, that's a pretty huge disparity. Thus, I feel my comments (as they surely must have been) that their points totals from the regular season were misleading were entirely on the mark. What Mike's huge increase in production tells me is that he really improved over the course of a year, and he's got a very bright future ahead of him.<br><br>Again, I don't see how my last comments were construed as critical of him, but if they were, I apologize, that was not the intention at all. I was merely saying that there are better measures of the top players across the state than regular season scoring, and it's good that people are recognizing that. <p></p><i></i>

PureTrick
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:02 pm

Ylitalo and points

Post by PureTrick » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:11 am

I agree with Petey. I wish you could pull the points up from Model Camp and last years playoffs for Ylitalo. That article is pure propaganda, he has been interviewed in the paper two of the last three days. Is someone pushing him for recognition? Look at this years Elite League points, and then subtract two goals because they were empty netters. He has almost never played well in big games or against competition, I also don't think he scored a goal when Orono Bantams went to state. When he was at Edina did he score one varsity goal? Kramer did post big numbers in the Elite league and as an alternate in Selects, so he can brag a little. Ambrose and Ylitalo score against teams that would be challenged by good bantams. Has either one put big numbers consistently against good teams or in big games? That article couldn't have been researched well, or the writer would have to have asked, why didn't these guys ever make a run at least one year as a Select, or rack up big points in Model Camp or the Elite League. Or how many years were they invited to either event? The article had a good premise but could have chosen better examples. Will Smith scored more goals than him from Orono last year as an example. <p></p><i></i>

shutout
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:25 pm

Tribune

Post by shutout » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:34 am

I think that article shows how little the star & trib knows about H.S. hockey. The kid from New Prague that they talk about that is second in the state in scoring put up all of his numbers against teams that are at the bottom in the state. Then when his team plays a decent team ( Orono ) what did he do then " NOTHING " meanwhile the better players that are facing top notch goaltending have to work twice as hard to get one point a night.<br>I support Petey's stand and I use this example:<br><br> The lake conference has 3 goalies from the Elite League, how many does the Missota, and St. Paul City have ?<br><br>Then they whine because scouts do not come and watch<br> DO YOU BLAME THEM !<br><br>You will not see articles like this in the Pioneer Press, their knowledge of High School Hockey is tremendously better then the tribs.<br> <p></p><i></i>

quickwhistle
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:59 am

Re: Top boys' hockey talent from small schools often ignored

Post by quickwhistle » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:41 am

I have seen all three players mentioned in the Star Tribune article play. Mike Kramer, Glenn Yalitalo are good players and most likely will have D1 opportunties later in the year as most D1 schools will wait till after the season to make a move on a player. When a small school plays a more advanced hockey program they have the numbers to shut down the individual talent at a smaller school. Doesn't mean the kid is a bad player.<br><br>Both of these guys may even have to prove themselves in juniors at a later date as have countless players in the past. I watched Mike and Glenn in the Elite League, what caught my eye is Mike and Glenn are stronger and smarter than the year before and play with a lot of heart. Scoring goals is important but what they do without the puck is equally important and thats what scouts miss when they can't get to there games. <br><br>The problem with hockey is exposure and the tight schedule scouts have when they attend games on the road. Given the choice they will see games such as Blake vs. Breck, WBL vs Centennial or Edina vs AHA. Often they will attend 4-5 games a weekend chosing the best games. Hockey is a small world when it comes to scouting and coaching, most of these guys know each other and have played together, they talk about guys everyday. I know both players are well known in the hockey world and they are on the radar screen of several junior and college scouts. They just might not have the options a big school kid will get.<br><br>Unfortunately where a kid attends school is important and who they compete against. This is not their fault but the elite league really helped both of them and I won't be suprised that either player will end up in D1 program. <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Re: Cupcake schedules

Post by JLS 81 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:19 am

petey1321,<br>Good points all on the padded schedule of some mshsl teams. In fact there is one that comes to mind of which resides in the Richfield area. A team which cherry picks the best talent from the Jaguar program and has been known to outshoot teams by totals of 47-7. Padded stats are just that...good point you must consider the opposition. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

ignored?

Post by joe lulic » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:07 pm

Can any one name a player who was ignored? The list of players from small or "unknown" programs that have gone on to play at the next level and beyond is just too long. We all know who they are. <br><br>Is there a list of players who were ignored , by scouts, in high school? I ask because my experience is the opposite. I see kids who wind up in D1 who I have never heard of because they are from non metro , outstate 'unknown promgrams'.<br><br>I would think that most scouts are able to spot talent and "adjust" stats so that they can make a meanigful comparison.<br><br> On the other hand a goal is a goal. Johnny Pohl gave us a <br>lesson there. Some of the players on that mystery squad mentioned by JLS 81 will do the same thing. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

birdmister
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 pm

one

Post by birdmister » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:36 pm

one name.....gordon <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: one

Post by joe lulic » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 pm

Ignored or looked at closely and evaluated incorrectly? They make mistakes. Players get labeled 'too small' , 'not fast enough' , 'not strong enough' all the time and prove them wrong. <p></p><i></i>

hockey10
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:21 pm

Players

Post by hockey10 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:21 pm

You guys all make good points and it has been a topic for discussion for quite some time. Lets just not be negative and criticize players. Not that any of the posts were, but just keep it in mind for future reference.<br><br>Ambroz is a good player as are Kramer and Ylitalo. I would say Kramer did improve from the previous year, but it is very hard to judge by Elite League stats. I heard a rumor that he sat out half the games because of a bad hamstring and played the other half with it still being very tender. I definately would like to see Ambroz in the league next season. He has always found ways to score and I assume the league wouldnt be much different. Ylitalo is a big kid and works hard. He's got some talent. Let's just see how the season turns out<br> <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

Gordon ignored?

Post by petey1321 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:11 pm

I hope you weren't suggesting that Ben Gordon was ignored, birdmister. He got tons of looks from all sorts of D-1 teams and was eventually snatched up by the defending national champions. If you don't think he got enough press or something in the metro, keep in mind that almost all the Star Trib and the Pioneer Press coverage is metro regardless of sport or player. They gear it toward the audience, just like the Duluth Paper and the I Falls paper and everywhere else. Gordon got the looks from the scouts, and that's what mattered. I hope you're not referring to his not getting Mr. Hockey. Plenty of kids never got Mr. Hockey from the metro too. Dey was a deserving winner.<br><br>JLS, one small point: AHA has not taken the "best" talent from Jefferson, though they have taken good talent. The best Jaguar players in the past few years have been Kranz, Bernhagen, and now my brother. I can understand if somebody throws Rollwagen out there, and yes, Rollwagen was a better player for the early years, but Brad caught up and passed him by the end. Jefferson did a good job keeping their best players from going there. The only guy who could be said to be better than those 3 was Matt Kaiser, and that kid had NTDP written all over him anyway, so it was only a loss for one year. Unfortunately, however, JHS lost a number of very good players (Rollwagen, both Kaisers, both LaMeres, both Garvens, Logan, etc.) to AHA and now has lost its best younger players (Mueller in particular) to other places. <p></p><i></i>

JLS 81
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 3:08 pm

JAGS Dilemma?

Post by JLS 81 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:50 pm

Petey1321,<br>Please elaborate for me why you think so much talent is leaving the Jefferson program? I for one cannot fathom why a kid would choose to leave one of the best feeder programs in the State of Minnesota. I have to figure it has much to do with the "it is all about me" mentality that permeates our instant gratification culture. I do not know if you were a Saterdalen guy or not but this stufff did not occur under his watch. Jefferson history is full of great players the numbers are still there. It is not like St. Paul Johnson, the Range, South St. Paul where numbers have dwindled. What gives petey1321? Give us your best "101" on this very important question. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... =jls81>JLS 81</A> at: 12/20/03 10:10 am<br></i>

atthepoint
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:04 pm

Petey . . .

Post by atthepoint » Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:49 pm

Why do you include Mueller in players lost. He and his brothers never attended Jefferson. <p></p><i></i>

petey1321
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 2:10 am

None of them did

Post by petey1321 » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:10 am

I'm not sure what your point about Mueller was. None of those kids that have left the Jefferson program ever left Jefferson high school. If you want to say then that "technically" they never left Jefferson High, I'm not going to continue in the argument, because I don't care. They left the program. Period.<br><br>Why? Lots of reasons. The first round of guys left because they wanted to play for Trebil instead of Saterdalen. Simple as that. Rollwagen left because his brother went to Holy Angels too, and I imagine that's why Kaiser left. This latest round of younger guys I suppose did so for a variety of reasons. The rumor (reasonably well corroborated) is that Mueller wanted to be assured of varsity time as an 8th grader, didn't get it, and left. I can only guess that him leaving had some effect on the other guys too, but there was always talk that a bunch of those guys had designs on private schools. Maybe they figured Jefferson would fall apart post-Sats (which thankfully hasn't happened so far), I can't say. There really is no overriding reason for everybody; they all have their own specific reasons. <p></p><i></i>

shutout
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:25 pm

blabbering

Post by shutout » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:52 pm

It disturbs me to hear things overly exagerated: ( Petey included )<br><br>first of all Jefferson has lost 2 players to Holy Angels in 7 years that have any chance of playing D1 hockey. People do not realize that Jefferson has always had kids play in their program and choose to go there in High School ( long before Trebil came along ). The location of the school makes it logical if they choose a catholic education, and you are always going to have some parents thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.<br><br>One thing that kids give up when they leave their community high school is the experience and memories of their High School experience with their longtome buddies. This Thanksgiving my son and all of his High School friends met up the night before Thanksgiving at a local establishment and re-hashed old times and bonded, I do not think you will find that comradorie at a private school because most of them never become that close of friends because of the distant loacation between them and there is no history involving their friendships. <br><br>For some people this is not an important value in their lives, getting their kid in a high profile sports situation is more important to them, and that is fine it is their job to raise their kids, but coming from a parent whose kid is in college now the sports are memories and the friendships are still real.<br><br>* if you want to see what I mean the former Jags will be hooking up again after their alumni game on Christmas Eve again. FRIENDSHIPS ARE FOREVER ! <p></p><i></i>

atthepoint
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:04 pm

Mueller

Post by atthepoint » Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:55 pm

Petey,<br>Peter Mueller's older brother Alan was already playing for Breck before Peter was accepted as an 8th grader. His younger brother is also at Breck. I was simply asking the question, why include a player as one lost to a school team if they never played for it and never intended to. I don't hear you crying about either of his brothers being recruited away.<br><br>shutout,<br>You are either just trying to be provocative, or you don't know anyone who has gone through private schools.<br><br>For anyone actually this uninformed; most kids in private schools attend their school for their entire education as do most public school kids. Those who don't usually enter later for the same reasons they would change public schools - parents job transfers, etc. Some will change as soon as they finally find an opening in one of the top schools usually after sitting on a waiting list for several years.<br><br>Ask an adult who attended a private school and you will find that they have just as tight friendships with the kids they grew up with as anyone. <br><br>Their alumni associations are quite active an usually well funded. A lot of careers and Business deals benefit from these relationships, and you would be surprised how many marriages come out of these groups many years later, because these smaller groups of kids know everyone they attended school with (and I mean for several grades ahead and behind them) and most of the kids their siblings attended with.<br><br>These schools require lots of involvement by the parents, this forces them to become part of a very tight knit community.<br><br>etc. etc etc.<br><br>Hope that helps.<br><br>Maybe if i had attended a private school I could spell. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... hepoint</A> at: 12/21/03 10:02 pm<br></i>

shutout
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:25 pm

Moron

Post by shutout » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:13 pm

Atthepoint:<br><br>Have someone read my post to you that can read and retain information. It clearly states that "WHEN KIDS LEAVE THEIR HIGH SCHOOL AND GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL " I was not referring to kids that went to privates their whole life. I was referring to kids that went there for sports and the longtime relationships that they leave behind.<br><br>Have a nice holiday !<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

gordo13
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:10 am

talent

Post by gordo13 » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:35 pm

I think ifalls goalie jared baldwin was ignored last year he won a lot of games for the broncos he was the mvp of that team <p></p><i></i>

czech hockey
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:47 pm

Re: talent

Post by czech hockey » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:47 pm

<br>I think after watching Mike Kramer play over 38 minutes in the games i watched against eagan, woodbury, and detroit lakes I find it hard for people to criticize him because of his teams strength of schedule. One thing to add is that como park's first line is pretty good...I would say they can compete with any line in the state. <p></p><i></i>

joe lulic
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Re: talent

Post by joe lulic » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:16 pm

I agree with czech hockey. all any of these kids can do is play the schedule that is handed to them. Even if you play for a large metro school,there are soft spots on the schedule. Sure, someones 38 goal season may need to be adjusted based on the competition but a good player is a good player. <p></p><i></i>

pierre96
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:27 pm

orono is a joke

Post by pierre96 » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:27 pm

glenn yiltalo is garbage. it is a joke that he keeps getting mentioned in the star trib and as someone said before, this illustrates the papers lack of knowledge about high school hockey. as people said before, the only way to judge the smaller school kids is by the elite league or selects and ylitalo was brutal in both these. he can score some goals against the likes of Chisago Lakes, hutchinson, new prague and new ulm, but for the few games orono plays teams with kids that can skate backwards he disappears. the scoring leaders list means absolutely nothing because of the horrible competition yiltalo, kramer, and many others like them play against. a pewee could have four points against chisago lakes with some decent linemates. <p></p><i></i>

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