Star Tribune Article

Zamman
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Location: Edina

Re: All for open enrollment

Post by Zamman » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:50 pm

I think you may be surprised by what AD's and School officials really say but they will never tell you. The schools do not develop the youth, the association is and they pull kids from other areas when they do not have enough kids. Some associations do not have enough kids and need to take some kids from nearby associations or have so many they send some to another area..... <p>________________________________<br>Academy of Holy Angels<br>2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS!<br>2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!!<br>GO STARS!!</p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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Re: All for open enrollment

Post by carpenter guy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:47 am

I never said that schools develop the youth players. However most varsity coaches have some role in the youth program and many former varsity players help out with the youth teams. Youth programs have always been the feeder program for the local high school and they should be.<br><br>I have spoken with numerous coaches and a handful of AD's and not one likes the way open enrollment is used for sports. I'm sure you will find a few that like it for obvious reasons. <p></p><i></i>

packerboy
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Re: All for open enrollment

Post by packerboy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:57 am

Carpenter guy , what is improper use or abuse of open enrollment? The legislators didnt distinguish between sports and academics. <br><br>Why should anyone else?<br><br>Why is it OK to use open enrollment for a language class but not for sports?<br><br>It is absolutely a fact that kids who are involved in extracurriculars do better academically. <br><br>My point is: Either you have it for whatever people want to use it for or you dump it. Its difficult if not impossible to fairly limit its use. <br><br>That may be a reason not to have it.<br><br> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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good point

Post by carpenter guy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:44 am

packerboy you bring up a good point. <br><br>It's obvious though that those that use it simply for sports are many times hurting the game on numerous fronts. I know I'm not alone on this. In fact I would venture to guess 90% or more of people associated with hockey and schools would agree with me. <p></p><i></i>

packerboy
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Re: good point

Post by packerboy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:06 pm

I agree with that. <br><br>It seems that hardly anybody thinks that we have open enrollment so that ,for example, little Johnny who lives in the Chaska school district should be able to go to Wayzata because he likes the football and hockey programs better.<br><br>Heck, if we want that, why even make Johnny change schools? Go to whatever school you want and play for whatever team you want. ..why should they have to be the same?<br><br>But its really hard to start making restrictions that are nothing more than an imposition of our priorties on some one else.<br><br>Maybe we have to accept the bad with the good and not "throw out the baby with the bath water" as it relates to open enrollment.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

PAMESH
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Re: good point

Post by PAMESH » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:32 pm

Carpenter <br>I agree it does affect others but only if they choose to let it affect them. Not making the varsity team is not the end of the world ask the hundreds of kids who don't make it every year. <br><br>In all my experience, as a high school referee, with ADs and coaches it seems that the biggest issue is. Parents soliciting their players and putting pressure on coaches and ADs to play their children. Is this in direct correlation to open enrollment, or is it just a sign of the times? <br> <br>Is open enrollment the reason we spend thousands of dollars on camps for our 9 year olds. Is it the reason kids specialize in one sport. I would say no. If we could eliminate intruding parents I don't think open enrollment would be an issue. ADs and coaches would not feel any pressure to win other then the pressure they put on themselves. It is not open enrollment that has coaches and ADS hating the system. It is intruding parents and they are not going to go away with open enrollment.<br><br>Open enrollment is an easy target because we can find examples of kids changing schools and "abusing the system" for reasons we never completely understand. Which usually comes down to the parents getting to involved. <br> <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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parents

Post by carpenter guy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:48 pm

PAMESH I agree with the parent issue you brought up. The parent problems are actually much worse at the youth levels then at the high school level.<br><br>Sure open enrollment isn't a huge problem but it does send a message to win at all costs. Also more people are affected then just a kid that is cut. I guess if all people used some common sense and had their priorities in line this wouldn't be an issue. <p></p><i></i>

hattrick91
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Re: parents

Post by hattrick91 » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:14 pm

Open enrollment is the only recourse that public school parents have against school districts that run crummy athletic programs and have less than mediocre academics. Without open enrollment, school districts would not have to compete for students both academically and athletically and would do even a poorer job meeting the public need. Competition is absolutely necessary or else school district's would be even more complacent then they are now- just accept the good and bad of open enrollment and move on. Sports will always be a matter of controversy- there is no perfect system. <p></p><i></i>

juniorhockey
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carpenter

Post by juniorhockey » Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:21 am

I think it's ironic that Carpenter guy wrote that he just wanted people's views on the subject (as indicated by his post earlier in this thread), when this is the single most talked about subject in this message board. And he could easily read people's views by scrolling back in the archieves.<br><br>I love hoe everyone gets so worked up over this. <br><br>Personally, I love the debate. I could probably argue it either way and make good arguements. <br><br>My final opinion is that I WISH everyone wanted to play with the kids they grew up with and stayed local with the youth programs. But it's impossible and very unreasonible to MAKE kids go to school at a particular place. <br><br>This issue is for ever debatable and never ending. I'll stick to enjoying Junior Hockey instead. <p></p><i></i>

packerboy
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Re: parents

Post by packerboy » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:17 am

The " It will foster competition and make us all better" rational for open enerollmnet sounds good but in my opinion is just rhetoric. <br><br>Anybody been out to Wayzata high school? Tell me how Mpls North, St Paul Johnson or South St Paul competes with that.<br><br>The tax base out in the big suburbs can provide facilities, education and opportunities that other districts cant.<br><br>What do you guys think..the people in north Mpls or east St Paul can just get together and decide to be like Wayzata? <br><br>Do you think that sports programs with small numbers that are underfunded can just decide to get better so they wont lose their kids to suburban high schools that look like college campuses?<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

Zamman
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Re: parents

Post by Zamman » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:49 am

Valid points here packerboy, except one. The facilities has nothing to do with it. You can have a simple arena and have a great team. This is not the best example but look at SSM, their arena is a dump but they are one of the best hockey programs in the country. Edison has a small simple arena, and if they had a larger number of kids and could get a quality coach, then they too would be great. But the fact is there are not enough kids, who play hockey, or can afford hockey in nordeast to compete with the larger district. Richfield is another good example: We have by far one of the nicest rinks in the Twin Cities, it is old school, but we cannot support two bantam programs and more than one other youth team. I have not seen any PeeWees at the rink, but I am not there all the time. If we had 1000's of kids like they did in the 70's and 80's, people would fear the mighty Spartans. We just do not have the number of kids. When the numbers are down, who are you going to get coach these kids? Some drunk? My youth coaches were always drunks, when I played in MPLS. <p>________________________________<br>Academy of Holy Angels<br>2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS!<br>2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!!<br>GO STARS!!</p><i></i>

packerboy
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Re: parents

Post by packerboy » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:01 am

Maybe facilities arent as important but the first time I went to a football game at Wayzata, my jaw dropped. <br><br>What a fabulous place...I wanna go to school there. <br><br>Cudos to those people out there who did that.<br><br>Not everbody just plays hockey as the Wayzata runnng back will tell you. <p></p><i></i>

hattrick91
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Re: parents

Post by hattrick91 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:45 am

Since this started out using Richfield as the example, I will continue this chain of thought. I work with alot of Richfield people and they are pretty high on what is going on at their high school- some are even considering transferring their kids from Holy Angels to Richfield because they say Richfield has alot of school spirit- Holy Angels, not much (their opinion only). Look at the examples the last year or so- Richfield at the state basketball tournament last year, boy's soccer- conference title over teams like Hill-Murray- money isn't everything, coaching and team dynamics are huge factors in success. Last year they had a pretty good hockey team I understand but didn't go as far as expected. My co-workers have said that this year the hockey team will have lots of seniors and a new coach so let's see how it turns out for them. The people I work with from Richfield are not too concerned about open enrollment issues. <p></p><i></i>

packerboy
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Re: parents

Post by packerboy » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:16 am

People in Richfield should be proud. Its a fine community as are many others like it. <br><br>But ,as Zamman pointed out, Richfield cant compete with other programs that are better funded and have more numbers no matter how hard they try. <br><br>Richfield and other communities do very well. But the current trend is to get little Johnny the best. <br><br>If Richfield isnt the best available, even if its doing the best it can, little Johnny may pack up and go elswhere. Thats the rub. <br><br> <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
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Re: parents

Post by bdabbt75 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:31 am

yawn. <br><br>Open Enrollment is not the root of the problem, and open enrollment was not created for athletics. It was created for academics and school budgets, and providing greater access to niche curricular and extracurricular activities to all students, even though not all schools may offer them.<br><br>As a taxpayer, I certainly don't want to build a state of the art automotive shop class in my district if only one kid wants to take shop. However, I certianly don't want to tell some kid that 'sorry, you live here, deal with it,' when a public school next door to mine has a great shop facility. As a taxpayer, I feel perfectly fine to let that kid attend the other school to get his education both basic and vocational. That's open enrollment.<br><br>The problem is the evolution of HS sports from being 'participatory' to 'competitive' to being 'pre-vocational' [preparation and competition for scholarships and eyeballs of pro scouts]. Open Enrollment didn't cause that. nor will repealing OE stop it (1: privates and charters will become sports schools, and 2: there is this thing called 'moving,' that allows people to change school districts, and 3: Legal system. Personal liberties are something not to be taken lightly... it may be the most expensive, but my guess no high school league will want to make a rule that says that you must play in the school district you were born in, played youth hockey in, or even started HS in... I know that George Restovich, Attorney at Law in Rochester would be drooling for a chance to attack that rule). <br><br>I think from a purely economic view, open enrollment is right balance of local control, and personal freedom. As for the impact on sports, You want to fix this... my suggestion is that you can't. The 'do anything [legal] to win' attitude will find the grey area, or the legal system that will allow it as a personal freedom.<br><br>I'm starting to align myself with the whole concept of removing athletics (ALL athletics) from the school system, and moving it to the Park and Rec system with a different governance. Decoupling competitive sports from schools separates the right of a quality education from the privilege of pre-vocational athletics. I don't like the concept, but I see no other way address the concerns of this board, and still have some semblance of a minnesota state hockey tournament. <p></p><i></i>

Zamman
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Location: Edina

Re: parents

Post by Zamman » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:03 pm

Removing sports form the schools is a bad idea. They are extra-curricular. School comes first, only first. The sports side is second. The hockey tournament is called "Minnesota State High School" Hockey tournament. If we take out the high school part it is nothing... <p>________________________________<br>Academy of Holy Angels<br>2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS!<br>2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!!<br>GO STARS!!</p><i></i>

PAMESH
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Re: Remove sprts form the schools

Post by PAMESH » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:45 pm

bdabbt75: <br>I have been saying take the sports out of schools for years. Ever since I watched young decent athletes have to stop playing because they were not good enough to make the varsity. It is not a crime to have a better player open enroll into a school and bump a kid out. The crime is that the kid has no were to play afterwards. With youth sports they provide opportunity to all players at all levels high school sports do not. Hockey is the only sport I know of that does with Jr gold. Why not continue the youth programs all the way up until they are 19. If school spirit is the reason for keeping sports in the schools I don't think it is worth the cost. Also making sure kids maintain grades is not even an issue. A single governing body that monitors grades. If you tell me that the teacher/coach being on site helps with monitoring grades. I tell you it works both ways. some Teacher/coaches will do what it takes to keep their best players on the team and some will monitor their players to make sure they are doing thier work. Talk about bringing the cost of eduation down. Participating in extracurricular activities foster better students but it doesn't mean it has to be at the school. <p></p><i></i>

goofygirlinva
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Re: parents

Post by goofygirlinva » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:52 pm

While facilities themselves may not make a direct difference in the quality of a school's program, the quality of a school's facilities are often symptomatic of the type and amount of resources a district has & is able to pour into their athletic (and other) programs. SSM may have a "dump" of an arena, but one of the things that makes that program so great is that it is able to hire top-flight coaches and provide other resources, such as various off-ice training programs, to its student-athletes that other programs may not have, or at least to the extent that they have at SSM. SSM (and many of the wealthier suburban schools) also has the resources that enable its teams to travel extensively, which in turn impacts the quality of the competition the teams face, which in turn impacts the quality of the program, which in turn impacts the quality of players that are on their teams. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... irlinva</A> at: 10/21/05 3:52 pm<br></i>

hattrick91
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Re: parents

Post by hattrick91 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:24 pm

Before we assume that Richfield cannot compete, let's see how the season pans out- they will play Hill-Murray in their conference and St. Thomas so let's see if they can compete or not based on results and not on supposition. Let's remember that many of these schools are playing single A not double A. I agree that they would not be able to compete with double AA schools. <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
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Re: parents

Post by bdabbt75 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:41 pm

and we let private schools participate in the tournament.<br><br>and we made it a two class tournament.<br><br>and now we have players move around from school to school like mercenaries.<br><br>Some people would say it's not much more than an allstar game now.<br><br>you said<br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Removing sports form the schools is a bad idea. They are extra-curricular. School comes first, only first. The sports side is second.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>If people think open enrollment is a bad thing because of the impact on sports... then the logical solution is not to remove open enrollment... but to remove sports from the equation... you said it yourself... they're 'extra'.<br><br>I love hockey. I love high school hockey. But for the life of me, is it more important than education? Open Enrollment is about education. If sports screws up our educational values (kids can't go to a school of their choice because it's causes unfair sports competition), then eliminate that issue.<br><br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

goldy313
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Re: parents

Post by goldy313 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:54 pm

We allow open enrollment so kids can go get the "best" education, it's about choice. It's about education. But the same proponenets of open enrollment don't allow vouchers. If the public schools can compete for the same student no matter where they live it seems hypocritical to me to limit it to certain schools. If I am a taxpayer in Burnsville and our school district loses kids what the heck difference does it make if they go to Apple Valley or Holy Angels? The money is gone either way. <br><br>Allow open enrollment but only to certain places, others are off limits. Only government could come up with this idea. <p></p><i></i>

BELOW 0 ZERO
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a-phlem

Post by BELOW 0 ZERO » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:01 pm

Foreign students should be able to play sports<br>I'm writing in sympathy for the Brainerd boys' soccer program which must forfeit the games they won this year due to an ineligible player. There may have been occasions in the past when schools or coaches have recruited foreign students for certain sports. However, I think it is unfair that the MSHSL paint all exchange students who ask to come to a particular state or city with the same brush. Five years ago a foreign student came to my home, attended Pequot High School, participated in no sports, and had an enjoyable year. Upon his return to Brazil, he related his experience to his neighbor. Two years later the neighbor boy joined an exchange program asking to come to my house and attend the Pequot school. He decided to tryout for football. The MSHSL immediately notified the school he was ineligible to play varsity ball because he could have been recruited. Imagine the Pequot coach going to Brazil and recruiting a boy 5'3" tall, weighing 135 pounds, and had never had a football in his hands. When I contacted the MSHSL, I was told they didn't have time to review the case.<br><br>Instead of agreeing with the MSHSL, the schools and coaches should be pressing them to review this rule. Minnesota has open enrollment with students attending out of district schools for various reasons, perhaps even for athletic reasons. The double standard should be questioned. It's a lousy image to project to these foreign students and their families and unfair to the schools which want the students to enjoy all the benefits of attending a Minnesota school.<br><br>David Steffen<br><br>(town removed)<br>from brd daily dispatch <p></p><i></i>

bdabbt75
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Re: a-phlem

Post by bdabbt75 » Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:03 am

foreign students can play MSHSL competition, as long as the MSHSL certifies that the placement programs are 'blind' (school doesn't know who is coming until they show up). <br><br>Lourdes has had several players come and play soccer and (american) football, and track. None of them have caused any problems.<br><br>The Brainerd foreign exchange program is not certified, and therefore they can't play.<br><br>End of discussion. Ask the MSHSL to certify the program for next year.<br>The rule is fine.... Every school knows the rules, if they don't, your Athletic Director is failing you. <p></p><i></i>

puckhead89
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Re: impact of facilities

Post by puckhead89 » Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:56 am

Apparently none of you have been to SSM lately. They have added an additional sheet of ice and the new rink is a beauty. The old rink, as some of you call a "dump", is very much a part of tradition down there, just like the old barn in Duluth is loved...just to set the record straight.<br><br>However, this is an example of a progam that according to you all didn't have crap for a facility, but was able to create this awesome program....hmmm...now they not only have a great program but a fabulous facility....so what comes first...the chicken or the egg? Forget it....it is a never ending debate. <p></p><i></i>

Zamman
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Location: Edina

Re: impact of facilities

Post by Zamman » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:52 pm

I am glad to hear that they have a new facility. they should have a nice facility for an excellant program. I iwll be down there when AHA plays them, I cannot wait... <p>________________________________<br>Academy of Holy Angels<br>2005 GIRLS STATE CHAMPS!<br>2002 & 2005 BOYS STATE CHAMPS!!<br>GO STARS!!</p><i></i>

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