Get rid of sections

newkidonblock · Post by **newkidonblock** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:37 pm

I'm sick of hearing people here complaining about how this team doesn't belong. Here is a simple solution. Eliminate sections along with A and AA. I'm sick of hearing about how we need to move so and so to this section because it isn't fair that they have to go through these teams. Let's create a system like Mitch and Lee where we just go by pairwise rankings, as they do for NCAA. The top 16 make it to the tourney. No complaints. This will take care of the 27-0 first round match-ups. I bet Moorhead would have wished they could have saved two of those goals for the state final. I pulled a Bertuzzi (cheap-shot from behind). Sorry Slapshooter. It isn't in my character (I'm choking up now) and I didn't mean to say it. Please forgive me. Oh, private schools will not be included in this tournament and open enrollment will be banned, they way it was long ago. Private schools, go have your own state tourney as you did once before. You could include some kind of knowledge bowl aspect because you are in a private school for the education. Yeah, Wheeler would stay at Breck if he couldn't be in the real state tourney. The section system will never guarantee the best teams make it to state. Look at how much programs vary over time. When I played, Burnsville, Hill-Murray and Edina seemed to make it to state every year. Where are they now? This way takes care of the constant moving of teams from section to section.

HBK 15 · Post by **HBK 15** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:47 pm

dumb idea, too much weight is put on the regular season. A coach then has to coach every game like a playoff game. How would a coach know whether to put a sophomore or freshman in the game to give him some varsity experience or whether to sit them all year knowing that losing one regular season game could be the difference between making or missing the tournament.

IJasonI · Post by **IJasonI** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:54 pm

That would be the worst thing ever to happen to public schools. The private school tourne would turn into a type of elite tourney and all the public school talent would go into these "elite" programs.

NUEagles · Post by **NUEagles** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:00 pm

Rankings are just someone's opinion. Having the top 16 teams would create problems. You have win-lose triangles all the time. ie. Team a beats team b, team b beats team c and team c beats team a. How would you rank them?

newkidonblock · Post by **newkidonblock** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:01 pm

They why are so many of the enlightened people here complaining about the current system? I don't hear any of you Einsteins coming up with a better way. I guess it is easier for you to complain than to come up with some original thought. Go ahead and keep with your career of flipping burgers. Once again, go talk to the NCAA about March Madness and of blessed NCAA hockey tourney, where pairwise mean life. Oh, the regular season does have an impact on the post-season. Almost all teams play the post-season how they play the regular season. If you win most of the time, you tend to do so in the playoffs. If you lose most of the time, you do so too. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub33.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUser ... onblock</A> at: 3/14/04 11:05 pm

hshockeyfan · Post by **hshockeyfan** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:06 pm

i agree with you on some points. I also think that A and AA should be one class and that sections as they are now should be eliminated. I dont think that a pairwise type system is very reliable though. Look at all the controversy of the BCS. This is not what high school hockey should be about. Then alot more teams would be trying to replicate the centennial/ moorhead/etc. scores of this year. I would propose this: Since the A and AA tourney has 16 teams comibned I would have a 16 team one class state tourney. Each team should qualify for regions, yes this does mean a possibility for a blow-out, but I think it still is fair to the players to have every team get a shot at state. Then you have 12 region/section type tourneys: 1 South MN 3 Northern MN 1 St.Cloud/Duluth 7 Metro That gives 12 teams berths in state. Then have a region finals type tourney in St.Cloud the weekend before state (st.cloud just cause it is different enough from the xcel to distinguish region finals from state and the national hockey center is a good facility.) At this region finals, the 12 region runner-ups would play off for the final 4 spots , completing the 16 team field. There are clear advantages to this system 1-it allows more of teh top teams to get into state because regions with more several great teams could get 2 teams into state. 2-it eliminates the A/AA who should be where debate 3-although we basically have one now, it is more exciting to have just one state champion 4-it still allows the hs league to mantain a "statewide" type feel with 5 or more outstate teams. 5-"cinderella" stories would still exist, imagine a orono or st.louis park making a run through regions against wayzata , centennial, white bear, etc. obviously improbable, but so are all cinderella stories. 6-It would possibly have a little more travel for outstate teams but not too much more than it is now, the regions are still divided by location. Obviously there are many logistical things that would need to be worked out, and there are draw-backs (state tourney would have to be one week later, has a much bigger reliance on teh metro teams than now -thats for the outstate people), but no system (includung the current one) is or will be without flaws. Im pretty sure the high school league will never adopt a system such as this but im my opinion that would be a decent approach, or at least a start, to improving the state tourney. I would like to see the disagreements with this, Im not saying my system is flawless or the best approach, but its what i thought of. what do you think?

Dons · Post by **Dons** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07 pm

Its not a bad idea at all. Look at all the cinderella teams in the NCAA's... i really dont think its a bad call... you get teams that slip through a section, and leave wat could be a potentially better representative at home. it would be a little tougher to organize than the current system...but i say keep some of your ideas..LET privates play..its not a big deal..and keep the A and AA>.ya gotta. but yea..give more teams a shot at gettin down and upsetting teams.

newkidonblock · Post by **newkidonblock** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:09 pm

Here we go! Now were getting some great thoughts!!!

hshockeyfan · Post by **hshockeyfan** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:00 am

i think we should let privates play if there is only one class. i do think that it should go back to one class, but if there is no way, then privates should have to play AA. it simply isnt fair to the small schools to let them play in the A tourney

nolookpassguy · Post by **nolookpassguy** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:32 am

Nice to speculate, but I seriously don't see any changes in the current format. Reason why is the ultimate bottom line-money. This year's Tourney produced record crowds which means more revenue for the MSHSL. In their eyes, the current format works. One of the reason they swithced the basketball Tourney was because of poor attendance and they wanted to create more interest (I think it has failed in my opinion). It is not the main interest of the MSHSL to get the "best" teams to the Tourney, but rather, a nice representation of the entire state which they feel creates excitement for everyone. As fans, we would prefer a system which would produce the best teams playing each other at the end of the year to decide who is best. Well, this year that came true with the Spuds/Cougars playing for the title. I agree it would have been nice to see other teams in the "final 8" but teams like Tartan & Lakeville did what they had to do & because of it, created excitment for their communities (no fault of theirs). Sure it would be nice to spread out some of the "loaded" sections, but that won't always guarentee that certain teams will get in. The best we can hope for is that the MSHSL will tweak the sections a little to balance off the traditional hockey powers to afford equal chances of participating in the Tournament.

MNPuckster27 · Post by **MNPuckster27** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:13 am

Sections is the only way to go.... Without sections, and using a format like the NCAA or a sweet 16 tournament would mean that in a year like this one.... We wouldnt have seen the Walters brothers of Hibbing carry their team through the playoffs and all the way to the third place trophy in class A. We wouldnt have seen SSP almost pull a huge comeback upset of Breck with goalie Alex Stalock stealing the show all tournament. Lakeville and their hot goalie B.J. OBrien wouldnt have won their first tournament game in years (maybe ever) over Elk River (a team that WOULD be in this sweet 16) And we wouldnt have seen the team I know everyone loves having at the tournament, the Duluth East Greyhounds winning 3rd place in the AA field. Stick with sections...who cares if maybe one "weaker" team squeaks in each year.

ROYALELK · Post by **ROYALELK** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:41 am

First off , congrats to Breck and Centennial,job well done.Is'nt section playoffs actually the start of the state tourney?I think some of the best HS hockey games I have ever seen have been in sections, granted you might have to drive across the state to actually see one but still...it's worth it...now,this would cost a fortune,what if sections were set up as double elimination brackets ,the same as youth regions,that would allow "the best" teams that were upset earlier a chance to redeem themselves,Hill , Edina , etc would have another crack at the big show

skipper · Post by **skipper** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:47 am

i like the ncaa basketball tournament idea, but instead of having the top 16 teams playoff why not have the top 64 teams play off. there would be regional sites for the first couple of rounds then the last 4 rounds would be played at excel. the top 64 teams regargless of class are put into this tournament. also make it so ever conference winner gets an automatic bid just like the NCAA tournament.

minnesotahshockeyfan · Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:57 am

These are all good ideas but heres my take on it: why don't they just bring back the back door system? Think about it, the sections wouldn't have to be jumbled around, and there would be better teams in the tourny--thus producing more revenue. there still would be the cinderella story, in fact thats how the 69 Warroad team lead by Henry Boucha got to the tourny, and the championship game. I'm not exactly sure how this could be put in for the future but I'm sure there is a way to do it that would be fair. Any thoughts???

Davesamess · Post by **Davesamess** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:24 pm

Everyone is either lookin for a way to slide into the tournament via a weak section (1A-1AA) or they are trying to make it a best-of tournament (All Metro-NoMN). Good luck. MHSL is only interested in the kids, not the sport. They want to give as many kids a chance to make it as possible, as it should be.This topic gets so old and boring. If you want to get your kid in the Tournament, fork out the bucks and send him to private school or transfer to a better public. It's the American way. Daves a killer, Daves a mess

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:43 pm

Yeah but, Who were the best 2 teams? Where were they on Saturday night? On the ice playing For all of the imperfections in the system, we seem to have a pretty good tournamant year after year. I still think an agressive approach to class assignment and then section assignmnet will keep it on track. Whatever sysytem we come up with will not be perfect. Look at the NCAA footbal deal. Big scientific system and all that effort and still....Ive never heard so much whining.

minnesotahshockeyfan · Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:51 pm

I agree with joe lulic in that there are always going to be imperfections in the system and no matter what some people are going to be angry, however, there has to be a better way. I mean come on, Tartan and Lakeville? I respect both teams but there are not state tournament caliber. And in the years to come we can't have two teams in the tourny that will never get past the first round.

oldschool · Post by **oldschool** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:53 pm

I like some but not others, I don't have a final solution to the "problem" but some pointers to integrate into the already mintioned systems: There are already very definite Regions in Minnesota hockey: Iron Range (includes IFalls and Ely), DuLuth area includes Silver Bay, Two Harbors.(Maybe these two gel together) NorthWest Bemidji to Hallock, Baudette. West Central, Central: Moorhead to Brainerd, West of Metro: Hutch, LDC, WIllmar, Southern, Marshal to Red Wing, St. Paul, Minneapolis, (Norths and Souths including suburbs) and Private schools.........now that is about 8 huh?? going by these guidlines, maybe the current system could be fixed( could eliminate Pirvate seciton too)or add another west of metro region.............or it could help tweak some of your systems....the reasoning is geographical also in these geographical regions, the teams play similar styles.... Private schools are fine to be in the mshsl, and recruiting is a part of life. Another point to ponder is: this is the State tournement. I will relate to football and basketball to make my point: in the old days, the NIT in college basketball was considered the best tournement, the NCAA's were junk, the best team in the country was considered the NIT champ, not the NCAA winner. In football there is what? 3 prespective champs? BCS, ESPN, AP?? now i know that one poll has a contract to mirror the BCS, but USC and Ltech took home national championship trophies last year. The point is, this is the State of Minnesota's way of determining their champion, by all means, Lee could give out his champion, LPH could give out their's...see my point, just because Breck won doesn't mean they were #1, just because Centennial won, doesn't mean they are the best, they won the State run hockey tournement.................my nickel's worth........

IJasonI · Post by **IJasonI** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:05 pm

I think the main reason people whine about the BCS is that there is no playoffs. A computer-generated system picks the top 2 teams and they battle it out. Sometimes the title is shared because of a difference of opinion in the human polls. The difference between that and this idea is that a computer would generate the top 16 teams and they would have the turney to decide the champion. There is not a great case that the 17th best team in the state should have been there so they could have won it all. Maybe they would be mad that they did not participate, however, they would not have much of a case for being champion. I guarantee there would not be so much complaining about the BCS this year if there had been a playoff. For example, USC vs. Michigan and LSU vs. Oklahoma in the first round and the two winners play. The only thing this system would take away is the cinderella story. I do, however, like the regional idea with double elimination as they do in peewees.

oldschool · Post by **oldschool** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:25 pm

Another thought to ponder, the tournement system is put into place so less of a question is there by playing the teams off, however, how can anyone say that Hibbing wouln't have beaten Breck??? or that Warroad wouldn't have beaten Breck and won??? or that USC wouldn't have been beaten by OU???? To me, the only TRUE way to determine the best team in the state or country is for every team to play everyone else and the best record wins (very impossible), also along those lines, every team would have to be the same for every game (same experience, etc.....) all of this is very immpossible wich is we have the current system that is agreed on by whoever made it up in the mshsl............THEIR "champion".....

benc14 · Post by **benc14** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:00 pm

I say we leave the sections but have one big 16 team stete tournament with private schools ex-cluded. That would be best.

Th0r2412 · Post by **Th0r2412** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:38 pm

I noticed many of the teams at state (ok all the teams) with players on their rosters who were not even D1 caliber. This isn't fair! That leaves a ton of talented players home watching the tourney, while some D3 kid gets to go simply because he's on team with a bunch of D1 kids. Since everyone wants only the best vs. the best and it doesn't seem to matter how the teams are 'assembled' let's cut the real bs. Play the regular season out as a means for the kids to audition for the scouts. Then at the end of the regular season split the state up into 12 pie slices originating from the center of the TC. You'd have NE, NC, North, NW EC , East etc. Then put all the top players on those teams as close to their geographic area as possible. You'd get only the top 240 kids, which is really what it should be about anyway. For the sentimental hockey fans you could label the teams with traditional city names like ssp, warroad,edina etc. or have the champions of the top 11 conferences recieve the labels for each team, saving 1 spot for a noname city and then pretend that's the 'cinderella' team. You could rotate that one every year or hold a lottery for it. This would keep the interest of the 150 or so cities that would be cut out of this system, at least until after the lottery. The tournament set an attendence record and the top team in the state won it. Give it a rest and enjoy the games.

MNPuckster27 · Post by **MNPuckster27** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:58 pm

Thor- I almost missed your sarcasm.... Good post... The best team will win and there is always a packed house to watch it so what are we complaining about??? You want to watch the true "best players".... The select festivals are coming up... that is why they have them! Congrats all State Participants... KEEP SECTIONS!

Th0r2412 · Post by **Th0r2412** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:41 pm

unfortunately there's more than a few people reading that post that were thinking some form of playoff like that would be a good thing.

Eagles93 · Post by **Eagles93** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:57 pm

I think a great idea would be to skip any playoff system and just make every team 13-13 at the end of the season. That way everyone's a winner! That's the best lesson to teach kids - no matter how hard (or how little) you try in life you'll always come out OK. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> Seriously... it's a shame that the best ideas are the most radical. In all reality, nothing anywhere near what people have proposed will happen. If anything, we'll see a class B tourney before we see 1 state champion. The only thing I could see happening, and I support it, is making all private schools play AA regardless of enrollment. This, in turn, would force the dominant A teams (Warroad) to move up due to lack of competition. This, of course, would create a crappy tourney where (no offense to the schools) Hibbing and Albert Lea are playing for the state "championship".

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Get rid of sections

Get rid of sections

dumb idea

Re: dumb idea

Re: dumb idea

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possible alternative

not a bad idea

Re: not a bad idea

A/AA/one class

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newkidonblock

double elim

ncaa

Backdoor

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Yeah but

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sections

BCS

Best

sections

sections

OH man...

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