Class A = B Bantam

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Re: Warroad

Post by PuckRanger » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:16 am

Heads up, Lee! <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> I'm going to air my opinion on PageStat2. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> Forgive me in advance, and don't take this the wrong way because I simply have never been a big fan of any computer generated rankings in general at all. That being said, I do enjoy looking at them, analyzing them (in case many of you haven't figured out by the contents of many of my posts, I am a stat freak), and they are a great conversation topic, so they do have their place. As a matter of fact, I had a pretty good time tearing apart PageStat2's final rankings. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>For those of you who refer to the PageStat2 rankings to compare A vs AA teams, you should know that the PageStat2 system has a built-in advantage (I understand this is done intentionally) for AA schools. A win over an average - or even in some cases - above average "A" team will actually hurt your team's ranking when compared to a close loss against a quality "AA" team. <br><br>When you take into consideration that some teams have to play traditional conference schedules that include some cream-puff teams or teams going through a down period, this built-in advantage actually forces teams like some of the section 1A, 7A and 8A teams down in the rankings by the mere fact that those games were scheduled.<br><br>A few examples:<br><br>First, Warroad is not the #4 team in the state as the final PageStat2 rankings have them, period. I cannot find any agreeable logic that will change my mind on that. The numbers speak for themselves in my opinion.<br><br>I'm going to use Hibbing as another example. Hibbing is ranked at #27 and lost games to lower ranked Grand Rapids (#31), Virginia (#45), Lakeville (#35), Two Harbors (#89), Chaska (#46), and Hermantown (#30), while also losing ALL 6 games it played against AA teams ranked ahead of them. All-in-all, Hibbing was 3-11-1 vs. teams ranked in the top 50 by PageStat2. The fact that the majority of the losses came to AA powerhouses gave Hibbing way too much credit in my opinion because they were only winning games against the weaker teams. I could see justifying that ranking if they had at least a .500 record against those top 50, but a .200 winning percentage is unjustifiable. Their losses counted for more than their wins, which just isn't right.<br><br>Lastly, how does an 8-win team who were outscored by their opponents for the season get ranked ahead of a 20-win team? Let's look at #36 Stillwater (8-13-5 =.308 win%) and #41 Minnetonka (8-15-2 =.320 win%); both won 8 games, both were outscored by their opponents, and both are ranked ahead of #45 Virginia (20-6-4) and #55 St. Cloud Cathedral (21-4-2). It almost appears as if 2/3 of Virginia's and Cathedral's games were thrown out of the equation. I know that Cathedral's schedule wasn't "Grade A", but I also know the quality of hockey here in Minnesota isn't that bad, at any level, to justify a team with only 4 losses being ranked 55th.<br><br>To me, while it probably is the best unbiased measuring stick we have, PageStat2 isn't the tell-all ranking system many users on this board make it out to be. It is programmed by humans, tweaked by humans, and it also cannot account for injuries, nor calculate the intangibles. I'll take a 158 member state-wide head-coach poll (which I know will never happen) over the PageStat2 system any day. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>I hope the words I chose didn't come off too harsh, because I really have nothing against Lee or the PageStat2 system itself. As a matter of fact, I have nothing but the utmost respect for Lee, and I think he does a very fine job with PageStat2 and his website along with all those responsible for maintaining this board -- I wish there were more people around like that. I do, however, take issue with those who use PageStat2 as a tool in a discussion by making the rankings out to be an indisputable fact just because it came from PageStat2. Hopefully, I proved that it is indeed just as disputable and open for discussion as any other poll.<br><br>Alright, down from the soap box.... end of rant. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/grin.gif ALT=" >D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

Neutron 14
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Re: Warroad

Post by Neutron 14 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:41 am

So it seems every agrees that at the youth level you play to the highest level that you can compete at. For the sake of argument, lets say "competing" means winning 50 % of your games. Bantams is only one year removed from high school. Why the mentality shift from one year to the next?<br><br>There's no doubt that the top 10 A teams could "compete" at the AA level. The top 5 could excel at it. But they choose not to opt up. Do trips to the Class A tournament mean so much? <p></p><i></i>

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puckswerestones

Post by Neutron 14 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:00 am

puckswerestones,<br><br>I think your math is a little fuzzy. After about 45 kids at a level you get severely diminishing returns. Only 15 will play A, another 15 will play B. Once they are peewees, there isn't that much movement into the A slots. Due to competition and commitment at the A level, those 15 will widen the gap between A and B.<br><br>Another myth is that city associations have unlimited ice. Girls teams in the cities have exploded in the last 5 years, and arena's hardly have kept up. We often have to drive 25 miles one way to get ice starting at 9:40PM on a school night. And thats for an 7th-8th graders. I don't consider that a luxury, maybe some do. <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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Puckranger

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Puckranger,<br><br>How many top notch AA teams did Warroad play? Answer is 1 for sure which was a tie and two more possibly against Osseo which is was a win and tie. So in three games they accomplished 1 win and 2 ties. Hardly the type of criteria to compare them to the top of AA. Play solid AA schedule and come back and talk. They are in A for a reason because they realize if they even made it out of 8AA they would have incredible trouble competing with 2 lines for 3 straight days against AA competition. Nice squad but simply A champs.<br><br>With that impressive tie with Moorhead I would say Eagan is better than the rest since they beat Woodbury who beat Stillwater who beat WBL who beat Moorhead. It's silly to use one game to say that they should be compared to AA. If you want to be compared to AA then come aboard the ship. <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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For arguments sake

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:17 am

Puckranger,<br><br>Since you don't like people using PagStat I can come back and say I don't like people trying to compare A to AA. They are in different classifications for a reason.<br><br>Chaminade should have been #1 in the NCAA basketball polls many years ago since they beat Division 1 #1 Virginia. That was a joke of course like it is to compare an A team to a AA team. The simple solution is to play AA otherwise be satisfied with the A title. I'm not bashing Warroad but it' hilarious that they never won the big tourney and now that they have had success in the lower class they want to be compared to the class they CHOSE not to compete with. Play a schedule like WBL, Centennial, Duluth East or Jefferson and then come back and talk to me. <p></p><i></i>

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Re: For arguments sake

Post by PuckRanger » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:39 am

OK, carpenterguy, I'll bite... for argument's sake... <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... /happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>If you don't like comparing A to AA, so be it. But, that is the topic of this thread and you did it yourself earlier in the thread. I wasn't trying to make a point that class A as a whole is equal to AA by any means. I don't, however, think the top teams in either class are better than one another. I was only pointing out what I see as flaws in the PageStat2 rankings, this is just MY opinion, nothing more, nothing less.<br><br>That being said, I will make a case for Warroad, who by the way, did not just become a hockey power when they went into class A. As a matter of fact Warroad has a rich hockey tradition which included 9 state tourney appearances in the one class system (8 more in class A), just one less than Moorhead's 10 (many of which have come in the 2 class system). I don't think I need to point out that Moorhead has never won the big tournament either. You aren't going to argue that Moorhead isn't one of the best teams in the state based on that, are you? Would you discount other traditional hockey powers such as International Falls, Eveleth-Gilbert, Greenway, or Hibbing that now play in class A the same way?<br><br>Anyway, on to the issue of Warroad's schedule. Warroad plays in the Mariucci conference, the same conference as Moorhead and Roseau. They have to play the conference schedule just like everybody else, as did Roseau and Moorhead. Other than that, Warroad had ZERO, count 'em again, ZERO games against unranked class A teams. The only games they played against non-conference class A schools were against Hibbing, Orono, Benilde-St. Margaret's, Richfield, Lake of the Woods, and Duluth Marshall--All quality programs. The remaining 12 games on their regular season schedule were against AA teams. There are many AA teams in the state that played much weaker schedules than this.<br><br>As far as opting up goes...<br>It is impractical for teams from that part of the state to play a metro-team loaded schedule, especially for financial reasons. You never will see them or Roseau play a schedule like a Duluth East or White Bear Lake because of the traveling involved and the fact that they don't have anywhere near the financial resources as the larger schools and many private schools have. Just not enough tax dollars to work with. Why do you think so many of the traditional northern hockey schools are either in class A or will be soon. I think its only a matter of time before we see the likes of Grand Rapids and Roseau among others trickle down a class because it is becoming increasingly more difficult to compete consistently at the AA level, especially when nearly all the teams in the immediate geographical areas are class A teams.<br><br>It all breaks down to this:<br>Warroad vs. AA (Conference games): 4-0-1<br>Warroad vs. AA (Non-conference): 6-0-1<br>Warroad vs. A (Conference games): 6-0-0<br>Warroad vs. A (Non-conference): 7-0-0<br>Warroad post season: 6-0-0<br>Total: 29-0-2<br><br>That really is about as good as it can get given their location and conference. Just for the fun, add in the fact that they played 20 games against top-20-ranked competition without a loss (18-0-2), and I cannot see how some people cannot give Warroad the credit they deserve just because they didn't play the teams that those very same people <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>think</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> are the best in the state -- teams that actually LOST games this year. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

crosscheck
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Re: For arguments sake

Post by crosscheck » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:53 pm

I think we all agree Warroad is as good as any AA team in the state based on their record. What will always remain a question is could they win the AA title. <br><br> I believe we can all agree it is more difficult to win 3 in a row at the AA than it is in the A. Warroad has never done it and either has Moorhead. It just isn't a cake walk type of tournament. <br><br>Based on that alone, the AA tournament simply gets more respect form the hockey crowd than does single A. <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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They won Class A

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:56 pm

PuckRanger they won Class A so if thats not enough recognition then move up. It's complete crap to say it's economics. Blue Line Clubs and businesses like Marvin Windows could easily make up the difference.<br><br>Warroad's team this year could beat anybody on a given night but so could 40 other teams. The fact remains they choose to play A because they have had more success there in a little over ten years then they did in 50 years in the one class system.<br><br>Warroad had a nice tradition before Class A but hardly rich. In 48 and 49 they took second and third. How many teams were in the state then?? They also took second in 53 and second in 69 most likely their best team. In 70, 88, and 89 they didn't place and in the last 2 they were 0-2. They have produced some nice individuals and a few solid teams over the years. Since Class A (1994) Warroad has nine appearances and three titles. Why the difference in success??<br><br>Eveleth and International Falls will always be considered much more rich in hockey tradition because of the championships and many more years of top notch hockey especially International Falls. In fact in this years program they are still listed as the program with the most state titles.<br><br>In my mind Moorhead has built more hockey tradition in the past 15 years than Warroad simply because of the consistent level of their program and playing in the top class. Did Moorhead even have hockey back in the 40's and 50's??<br><br>Again, Warroad played 3 solid AA teams and both of their blemishes came from those games. If they wished to be compared to AA then they need to opt up. Furthermore, Warroad would get much more respect if they won with all Warroad kids!! <p></p><i></i>

Salol Hockey
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Re: For arguments sake

Post by Salol Hockey » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:07 pm

Crosscheck and Carpenter guy...Whats makes you think that AHA could have won the Class A title this year, I guess we will never know, now will we. <p></p><i></i>

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?????

Post by Neutron 14 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:13 pm

umm.... Salol Hockey,<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Why would they want to?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i></i>

BIAFP
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For arguments sake?

Post by BIAFP » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:16 pm

Salol- Why in the world would AHA want to try to win the class A tourney? They are a small private school with the sack to play AA unlike Warroad who never has and never will win the big show! <p></p><i></i>

elliott70
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Re: For arguments sake?

Post by elliott70 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:08 pm

In 12 years of AA hockey the tournament has been won 5* times by a single A school. <br>By definition a single A school is one that falls within a certain range of school population. In those years those schools have mad the choice to play in the AA tournament.<br><br>* I am not entirely certain of Dultuh East in 1995 and 1998.<br>But Roseau in 1999 and AHA in 2002 and 2005 definetly fit in the single A classification (although AHA is a private school but that topic has probalby been discussed already).<br><br>Point is - if you want more recognition play in the more difficult class. You cannot compare the two. AA has a stronger field but single A teams definitely can compete at that level. Which team is better, the AA or A champion? Without a game to determine the 'overall' champion how do you know. We don't, but it is fun to discuss.<br><br>My choice, AHA. <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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right on!

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:16 pm

In 12 years of AA hockey the tournament has been won 5* times by a single A school. <br>By definition a single A school is one that falls within a certain range of school population. In those years those schools have mad the choice to play in the AA tournament.<br><br>* I am not entirely certain of Dultuh East in 1995 and 1998.<br>But Roseau in 1999 and AHA in 2002 and 2005 definetly fit in the single A classification (although AHA is a private school but that topic has probalby been discussed already).<br><br>Point is - if you want more recognition play in the more difficult class. You cannot compare the two. AA has a stronger field but single A teams definitely can compete at that level. Which team is better, the AA or A champion? Without a game to determine the 'overall' champion how do you know. We don't, but it is fun to discuss.<br><br>My choice, AHA. <br><br><br>Elliott, you hit it right on the head. Since the start of hockey small schools have been able to compete like Roseau. They choose to play up while Warroad doesn't. Every year the Warroad fans want to compare themselves to AA and cry for respect. There is one simple solution to this but they will never do it because they couldn't get it done for 50 years prior to Class A and open enrollment. <p></p><i></i>

Windsor247
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Re: For arguments sake?

Post by Windsor247 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:24 pm

I guess no one on this board will be happy unless Warroad moves to AA and doesn't contend for state every year or they stay in A and don't allow anyone on the team that hasn't lived or played hockey in Warroad their whole life. Does that about sum things up. Last time I checked every one of the AHA players didn't grow playing together. So let me get this straight, it's ok to have players from other towns as long as you play AA? Maybe Warroad should just do all these people a favor on here and drop hockey so they could channel their jealousy toward someone else rather than sit around and think of ways to complain about Warroad. <p></p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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Complaining??

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:29 pm

Complaining and Jealousy? I believe it's the Warroad fans who want the recognition. They have a solid program and choose to play Class A. Their choice! To compare Holy Angles is like apples and oranges since they are a private school.<br><br>For the record I despise open enrollment and Elk River, Duluth East, and recently Moorhead in AA lead the pack of enrolling these kids at a rapid pace. NO place for this in high school sports. <p></p><i></i>

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Re: For arguments sake?

Post by east hockey » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:30 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Last time I checked every one of the AHA players didn't grow playing together.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>The problem with this comparison is that AHA doesn't <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>have</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> a youth program, due to their being a private school.<br><br>As for the open enrollment thing, I personally don't care all that much. If people don't like it, people can try to change it. Complaining on a message board doesn't qualify as "trying to change it". It qualifies as....complaining.<br><br>If Warroad wishes to stay in Class A, then their program can live with the attitude of many people that Class AA > Class A. It's just the way it is, and it's not without merit.<br><br>Lee <p>____________<br>Message Board arsonist since 2005</p><i></i>

carpenter guy
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Re: For arguments sake?

Post by carpenter guy » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:35 pm

I have written the State High School League more than once. I don't care what school does it because it's wrong!!! Not complaining just stating the obvious and nobody on here has been able to defend schools using open enrollment for sport success. Anybody with any common sense can see it's WRONG!!! <p></p><i></i>

Salol Hockey
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Re: For arguments sake?

Post by Salol Hockey » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:39 pm

The only way Warroad will stop kids from coming to their school is to start losing. I am not sure they know how. <p></p><i></i>

elliott70
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Big & Little

Post by elliott70 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:40 pm

Just an example that school size really is not the only factor<br>In Girls 14UA state championship<br>semifinals<br>Warroad beats Lakeville 6 - 3<br>Edina beats Roseau 2 - 1 in OT<br><br>and in what some are calling the Bantam A state championship game (actually the semis)<br>Roseau vs Edina <p></p><i></i>

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Re: Big & Little

Post by PuckRanger » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:01 am

Carpenterguy, how can you say that Warroad doesn't have a rich tradition in hockey? Have you been to Warroad? Does the name "Christian Bros." ring a bell? Have you seen the slogan on the town water tower? Just because they never won the tournament doesn't mean they don't have a rich hockey heritage. Try comparing Warroad's history with that of the Holy Angels or Centennial... You'll see that you can't even put them on the same level.<br><br>As for the financial issue, YES, it is a major factor in many outstate team's decision to play in the smaller class. Do you know the population of Warroad and the surrounding area? Its absolutely preposturous to think that Marvin Windows is going to pay the cost to ship the team across the state several hundered miles once or twice a week just to boost the teams schedule strength. In this day and age of cuts, cuts, and more cuts, the outstate schools suffer more and more every year. Don't kid yourself, this is a major issue.<br>Don't forget that Warroad isn't a coop team like many other outstate teams. There's much more to opting into class AA than just filling out the paperwork- if you want to try and compete, anyway.<br><br>I could foresee the entire northern part of the state playing class A hockey in the future for this very reason. Look at section 7AA, which used to be all range teams. Gone are Greenway and Hibbing, and now there's only Grand Rapids left and I will be shocked if they don't drop down for the 2007-08 season. Take out Duluth East and Cloquet and then you've got nothin' left but the more southern schools. Class AA could be on its way to being an all-metro event with maybe the exception of Moorhead, St. Cloud area and Rochester area teams.<br> <p></p><i></i>

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Re: Big & Little

Post by PuckRanger » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:31 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just an example that school size really is not the only factor<br>In Girls 14UA state championship<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Is it just me? Or is there really some relevance between girls 14 & Under hockey and boys high school hockey? <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :eek --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... ns/eek.gif ALT=":eek"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br>Talk about yer apples and oranges. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p></p><i></i>

Neutron 14
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Re: Big & Little

Post by Neutron 14 » Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:21 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Anyway, on to the issue of Warroad's schedule. Warroad plays in the Mariucci conference, the same conference as Moorhead and Roseau. They have to play the conference schedule just like everybody else, as did Roseau and Moorhead. Other than that, Warroad had ZERO, count 'em again, ZERO games against unranked class A teams. The only games they played against non-conference class A schools were against Hibbing, Orono, Benilde-St. Margaret's, Richfield, Lake of the Woods, and Duluth Marshall--All quality programs. The remaining 12 games on their regular season schedule were against AA teams. There are many AA teams in the state that played much weaker schedules than this.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>So you say you play the same schedule as AA teams. I don't follow your financial reason for not playing in the AA tournament. What am I missing? If you say your as good as the AA schools, (and we know you are), Do it! I think your definition of competing is winning the title. This isn't about only Warroad, it's the top A privates also. You want to be compared with the best, but refuse to play in the AA tournament. <br><br>We have Class A because small schools said they can't compete with the metro area big programs. For 95% of the Class A schools I agree. The other 5% not only can compete, they can be dominant. With Warroads program strength you shouldn't feel pride winning the Class A title, you should feel embarrassed. <p></p><i></i>

RLStars
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Big & Little

Post by RLStars » Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:55 am

Maybe the MSHSL should bump the Champion of the Class A tournament up to Class AA after winning the title. Then drop the bottom team from AA to A to take the champs spot. They could still play mostly the same schedule. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... RLStars</A> at: 3/14/05 8:57 am<br></i>

MNPuckster27
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Re: Big & Little

Post by MNPuckster27 » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:06 am

Isnt that part of the fun? Knocking off the defending state champ? You would take that away from class A hockey by moving the A champ up. Besides, especially with class A hockey, teams can have a big decrease in talent from year to year. <p></p><i></i>

Warroad11
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Re: Big & Little

Post by Warroad11 » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:59 am

I must say at some point I could see Warroad moveing up to class AA. I personaly dont believe we should though. Yes we play alot of AA schools, Roseau, Bemidji, Moorhead, I'd like to see maybe a East or even more city teams over the year. Money is tight though, hockey in Warroad already is bashed by the other sports in town because of the money that is spent on it over say basketball or baseball or football to some point. But in Warroad hockey is so important to most people that they dont care what the break down really is. I just feel that for Warroad it makes more sense to stay in class A with its rivals. East Grand Forks and TRF and LOW have all become big rivals with Warroad. Roseau moved up and its kind of slowly that part of things down with Warroad. But look at Roseau in AA now, there main rival is now Moorhead and after that there isnt much else. Roseau at some point might make another run at a state title but I really dont see them doing in anytime soon, I know there kids moveing up next season just made it down to state but so did Moorhead's. For as good as Roseau's youth program is right now, so is Moorheads. Warroad should get more respect, would they beat AHA this season if they played? I'd give them a chance, by no means do I see AHA beating Warroad easly as its been said on here they could. So more respect for Warroad yes there should be, but that dont mean I think they beat AHA or that AHA would be them <p></p><i></i>

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