MSHSL possibly limiting coach contact during summer?

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seek & destroy
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MSHSL possibly limiting coach contact during summer?

Post by seek & destroy » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:09 am

Interesting article in Star/Tribune today about the possibility of restricting coaches from players during parts of the summer. If kids want extra training (and many do at this age) they are going to find it somewhere so if the coaches are limited, who will train them? Any kid who wants a break can get one by taking time off on their own. Most coaches are not going to punish a player because they took a week or two off for a family trip or if a player just wanted a break. Many coaches are aware of the danger of overtraining and plan that into their summer programs.

Once again you have a few parents who don't want their kids having to work so hard to keep up with kids who do want to work hard...their solution, like always, is to try and force their ideas on everyone else.

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/preps ... LanchO7DiU

Hopefully the MSHSL will make the right decision and allow the players and their families to determine how much they want to train in the off-season and not limit H.S. coaches from working with their teams.

Idiot
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Post by Idiot » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:10 pm

I see this as a positive. It may allow a player the chance to participate in other sports plus I am a firm believer in the fact that a player is better off getting different perspectives from multiple coaches as compared to having the same coach, good or not, for four full years without other influences. There is also the fact that coaches will have the chance to work with others and get some ideas themselves.

If you believe that a coach (not all coaches) will not hold it agianst a player for leaving for two weeks because he wants a break you are wrong. There are great coaches out there but there are also those that believe hockey should be the only thing in a players life.

Tony Soprano
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Post by Tony Soprano » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:35 pm

One thing I like about summer camps is the chance for the new incoming players getting their feet wet with the program they will be playing in. I know that there are captains practices that will allow this to happen, but during the summer they can get a chance to see the coach and staff in action even though it may be a little different than during the regular season. I do agree with the comment about the coaches coming up with new ideas over the summer, but letting the coaches work with their programs gives them the opportunity to work on some new ideas as well.

I am sure there are several coaches that put the screws to their players and their attendance in some camps, but I want to believe there are those that are doing if for some of the right reasons as well. I also think that the players should be involved with other sports as well. Summer camps do not have to be 3 or 4 sessions per week, they can be cut down.

finance_gal
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Post by finance_gal » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:01 pm

I think coaches should just let go for the summer and let kids enjoy themselves, from what I see during the summer is about half the kids just going through the motions because their required to be there. If a Kid wants a hockey intensive summer there are plenty of people outside of the high school program that can provide this, and maybe the kid will come back in the fall with a few new moves to share with his teammates.

hockeyboys
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Post by hockeyboys » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:11 pm

hate to bring up the financial aspect - but it is important to this topic.
High School coaches don't make a lot of money - many are also teachers - so not huge incomes their either. These summer training programs help them supplement thier incomes, and thereby enable them to coach during the winter. Without the ability to make this summer income, some coaches may think twice about coaching.

Stealth
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Post by Stealth » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:08 pm

To add to hockeyboys point, the coaches are usually running a youth program skate and drills at the rink before the High School kids come on the ice.

Kids off the streets can’t be all that bad.

Change it to “National night out” at the rink of course! It’s just a few more times a week and a little more popular here in Minnesota! HA!

Elvis
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Post by Elvis » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:48 pm

I would support a no-game/scrimmage/tournament policy over the summer because I think this time of year should be focused on skill development and team play, not systems that are required to compete in a tournament. Having a mandatory break, in my mind, is completely un-necessary. Also, hiring "other" coaches, while valuable, is not always financially feasible for families, while most of the school's summer camps are pretty reasonably priced.

On the money side of things, if players are paying to attend the camp, they have the right to take a "break" if they want it, and coaches should be sensitive to this fact. It's not a time to compete for positions, it's a time for players to improve, and I think that with all of the tournaments and scrimmages diverts the focus away from player development.

mnhcp
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Post by mnhcp » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:25 pm

hockeyboys wrote:hate to bring up the financial aspect - but it is important to this topic.
High School coaches don't make a lot of money - many are also teachers - so not huge incomes their either. These summer training programs help them supplement thier incomes, and thereby enable them to coach during the winter. Without the ability to make this summer income, some coaches may think twice about coaching.
What about their Pensions? I wish I would have gotten into that racket. Not feeling sorry for them here.

hockeyboys
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Post by hockeyboys » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:40 pm

not saying you should feel sorry for anyone. Its just a fact - summer programs are a major part of what a coach can make money doing.

summer is an important time for skill development. If anyone thinks that a 4 month season - and 25 games is sufficient to develop top hockey players - then you are kidding yourself.

these kids are going to go find hockey - or whatever sport they are focused on during the summer months because they have a passion for their sport, want to work hard, don't enjoy sitting in front of a tv all day, etc. The MSHL may limit the coaches contact with their own players - but the players are going to find hockey anyway. All they would have accomplished is keeping coaches away from their own players, and limiting their potential income.

Could be interesting - Could have the Apple Valley coaches run the Burnsville program, The Burnsville Program run Prior Lakes, Blaine coaches at Centenial, etc. Problem solved.

Idiot
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Post by Idiot » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:42 pm

hockeyboys wrote:hate to bring up the financial aspect - but it is important to this topic.
High School coaches don't make a lot of money - many are also teachers - so not huge incomes their either. These summer training programs help them supplement thier incomes, and thereby enable them to coach during the winter. Without the ability to make this summer income, some coaches may think twice about coaching.
If they are good the players will find them if they run a summer program.

archway Sign
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Post by archway Sign » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:57 pm

What about baseball. They get Spring then they get legion, VFW which takes them into the end of July. Basketballs and pacesetter runs tourneys all summer. In most smaller communities they don't have the Brooks Training center so they must rely on the coaches who have the most passion and knowledge of the game. The high school coaches. Dumb rule if they implement.

northwoods oldtimer
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Same Rule Should Apply

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:52 am

As long as the folks at MSHSL consider the same rule to apply for the soccer and the baseball coaches as well. Summer High School STP is great for the kids, it offers low cost, good on and off ice training and majority of coaches understand kids are in other sports. The 2 tournaments the kids play in are not a problem, in fact they help the kids to understand the need for getting stronger in order to compete at the high school level. MSHSL should stick to counting dollars generated from the Boys High School Hockey tournament and quit micro managing what is a working and successful program.

Sorry guys I cannot type on this tiny little laptop!!!
Last edited by northwoods oldtimer on Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RLStars
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Re: Same Rule Should Apply

Post by RLStars » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:58 am

northwoods oldtimer wrote:As long as the folks at MSHSL consider the same rule to apply for the soccer and the baseball coaches as well. Summer High School STP is great for the kids, it offers low cost, good on and off ice training and majority of coaches understand kids are in other sports. the 2 tournaments the kids play in are not a problem, in fact they help the kids to understand the need for getting sttonger in order to compete at the high school level. MSHSL should stick to counting dollard generated from the Boys High School Hockey tournament and quit micro managing waht is a working and successful program.
What he said, except for the typo's :D

These camps or summer programs can not be MANDATORY and if your kid doesn't want to go, then don't go. If you think that it could affect playing time, have the player contact the coach and let them know they need a break and will be doing some training on their own, or playing another sport, whatever, just don't screw with the rules we've all been living with because a minority doesn't want to go.

Marty McSorely
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Obviously there's some issues in some districts

Post by Marty McSorely » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:30 am

The current window is fine but some coaches must be taking it to far. With that said the AD should manage the coach being that's what they are paid to do.

The current system is not broke. AD's need to step up to the plate and set the rules for summer practice: example only practice 3 days a week and must have weekends off or 7 training days in a 14 day time frame.

Idiot
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Re: Obviously there's some issues in some districts

Post by Idiot » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:01 am

Marty McSorely wrote:The current window is fine but some coaches must be taking it to far. With that said the AD should manage the coach being that's what they are paid to do.

The current system is not broke. AD's need to step up to the plate and set the rules for summer practice: example only practice 3 days a week and must have weekends off or 7 training days in a 14 day time frame.
I completly agree with this option except for the fact that you are crossing a line when the public school system starts deciding what a private business can do.

Can't Never Tried
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Post by Can't Never Tried » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:19 am

It's fine the way it is.
Players that don't want the extra training, either don't sign up, or don't show up even if they do sign up.

As for whether or not a coach notices the player putting in the extra work or not is just the way it goes, odds are that the player was going to do it whether or not a summer program was offered anyway, and there's a good chance that player is already a success due to his own work ethic.

I hope this is not an effort to even the field of competition by limiting access to those that want training, by those that want to do less.
That's a negative approach to bettering the state of HS hockey.
Stop adding all these restrictions (or trying to) people should be able to make their own choices.
The only thing I agree with is that by having the 90 day stay away period right before the season begins, somewhat insures that all teams start at the same time so there is not an advantage in that respect.


8)

Tony Soprano
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Post by Tony Soprano » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:33 am

Who is the MSHSL really looking at? Basketball, volleyball, hockey? There must be some noise coming from someplace that is making them take a hard look at this.

In some programs, parents may tend to look at the coaches cross-eyed if they do not offer a summer program. Then there will be those that think it is way too much. Just like everything else, you cannot please everyone.

I think taking a break over the 4th of July holiday is a good thing, and most are probably already doing this anyway. It is true that all programs cannot have contact from the end of July to tryout week in November makine it a even playing field across the board. If there are some coaches that bend the rules, punish them, not all coaches and programs that want to work within the guidlines. Leave well enough alone.

finance_gal
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Post by finance_gal » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:35 am

I wouldn't have a problem with coaches having off season contact if it was required that all offseason programs be open to everyone no matter what school they come from, This would open up the very good training programs to kids who come from schools that don't have very good programs and focus on player development and not as much on installing systems and holding tryouts for the season which some of the STP programs have become.

seek & destroy
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Re: Obviously there's some issues in some districts

Post by seek & destroy » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:38 am

Idiot wrote:
Marty McSorely wrote:The current window is fine but some coaches must be taking it to far. With that said the AD should manage the coach being that's what they are paid to do.

The current system is not broke. AD's need to step up to the plate and set the rules for summer practice: example only practice 3 days a week and must have weekends off or 7 training days in a 14 day time frame.
I completly agree with this option except for the fact that you are crossing a line when the public school system starts deciding what a private business can do.
I agree with the idea that we don't want school AD's telling coaches what to do either. My point is that if a coach is not providing a good program or is providing a program that is more than what the majority want, players will look elsewhere for training. Most players are looking for high quality training and if a coach is willing to provide a top notch program I see nothing wrong with that no matter how many hours it provides a week. If a player chooses not to participate in his program the coach need to understand that that was their choice for whatever reasons.

Do I think that could effect the player during the season? Sure, it could because those players may not have been working on things that the coach feels are the most important skills to develop and he will not have been seen as much by the coach. However, in the end, I also think most coaches are going to put the best players on the ice no matter what they did or who they trained with during the off season.

Can't Never Tried
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Re: Obviously there's some issues in some districts

Post by Can't Never Tried » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:18 am

seek & destroy wrote:
Idiot wrote:
Marty McSorely wrote:The current window is fine but some coaches must be taking it to far. With that said the AD should manage the coach being that's what they are paid to do.

The current system is not broke. AD's need to step up to the plate and set the rules for summer practice: example only practice 3 days a week and must have weekends off or 7 training days in a 14 day time frame.
I completly agree with this option except for the fact that you are crossing a line when the public school system starts deciding what a private business can do.
I agree with the idea that we don't want school AD's telling coaches what to do either. My point is that if a coach is not providing a good program or is providing a program that is more than what the majority want, players will look elsewhere for training. Most players are looking for high quality training and if a coach is willing to provide a top notch program I see nothing wrong with that no matter how many hours it provides a week. If a player chooses not to participate in his program the coach need to understand that that was their choice for whatever reasons.

Do I think that could effect the player during the season? Sure, it could because those players may not have been working on things that the coach feels are the most important skills to develop and he will not have been seen as much by the coach. However, in the end, I also think most coaches are going to put the best players on the ice no matter what they did or who they trained with during the off season.
That is a fact!

RLStars
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Post by RLStars » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:01 pm

finance_gal wrote:I wouldn't have a problem with coaches having off season contact if it was required that all offseason programs be open to everyone no matter what school they come from, This would open up the very good training programs to kids who come from schools that don't have very good programs and focus on player development and not as much on installing systems and holding tryouts for the season which some of the STP programs have become.
As my son was coming up, he was allowed to attend another schools STP program for several years. While still HS age, a heighboring community school also let him train with them during their summer camp. So it does happens, you just need to ask

I only have experience with the way three teams handle the summer hockey training and in all three cases, the school has NOTHING to do with the program. In one case, it is the youth hockey association to organizes and admistrates the program. In the other two, the Blue Line club organizes, hires and pays the coach, secures ice time and supervises the workouts.

cheapshot
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Post by cheapshot » Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:07 am

This would be a very bad decision by the MSHSL. The problem has arisen because you have some small town coaches (in other sports such as football) who are upset because they are not able to play with some of the metro teams, guys who would rather be fishing than putting in time in their programs, or guys who are older who dont have the energy to put in time. I dont think you can worry about making things fair for everyone in terms of limiting opportunities. If you are not able or willing to continue to build your programs through summer training, then maybe it is time to get out and let someone else have a try.
If coaches are not allowed to work with their teams then you are going to get a lot of outside influences working with them. There could be some very good outside groups, however, more often than not you are going to get some very poor groups. You may end up seeing club or AAA types becoming advisors to kids more and more during the season possibly undermining what the school's coaches are trying to accomplish.
I think that the more parents that contact the high school league on this issue the better. Its important to take steps forward in continuing to build hs hockey, going back to 1985 concepts is not going to be good for anyone.

oldram
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Post by oldram » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:49 pm

mnhcp wrote:
hockeyboys wrote:hate to bring up the financial aspect - but it is important to this topic.
High School coaches don't make a lot of money - many are also teachers - so not huge incomes their either. These summer training programs help them supplement thier incomes, and thereby enable them to coach during the winter. Without the ability to make this summer income, some coaches may think twice about coaching.
What about their Pensions? I wish I would have gotten into that racket. Not feeling sorry for them here.
What racket are you in? I've taught for over 20 years and not only do I get to deal with spoiled rotten kids, but I get to deal with their uninformed parents, as well. Do you have a professional degree? I do. I have children and qualify for free and reduced lunches for my kids at school. I coach and take any extra curricular pay I can get, just to make ends meet. Oh and summers off....nice try. I work two jobs in the summer, as well. Get a life.

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