Juniors vs. High School

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

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karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Thu May 28, 2009 1:26 pm

Nonamer wrote:Karl, some may speculate, others are comfortable with the real story re: Forbort. Consider this: Randolph states he adequately prepares his players for DI hockey - he says Max Tardy, as a product of his system, is ready - what does it say about Rand's player preparation/evaluation/assessment if Tardy plays juniors next year, instead of playing for UMD as a true freshman?

About the PP unit with Forb as a forward. The most successful PP using this lineup changed in terms of players midway through the season, and lost it's effectiveness. Rand's reasoning behind his decision to change an extremely effective unit? Now this is where one can only speculate...
Was it announced that Tardy would be playing juniors before Forbort left? I can't remember. If it was, then this argument definitely makes sense. But saying it's the only reason would be simplistic; Forbort's situation is rather different from Tardy's. More than just that had to go into the decision.

As for the PP numbers, I went and looked them up. I don't remember exactly when they started using Forbort as a forward, so I arbitrarily declared that it started with the Denfeld game. If you or someone else remembers bettere when it started, I can adjust the numbers. But in the meantime, we have this

East PP pre-switch: 13/43 (30.2%)
East PP post-switch: 19/67 (28.4%) --figure includes sections and State--

So they were slightly better before the switch, but the difference is negligable. It doesn't appear to have really helped or hurt the team.

Off Sides
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Post by Off Sides » Thu May 28, 2009 3:06 pm

If we want to talk about Forbort and the East power play here is my 2 cents worth. Randolph I do not believe has a lot of say in who plays defensive partners as well as who are the D on the PP, he leaves this to Trachsel the D coach. I believe moving Forbort up on power play was a good move as Tardy didnt seem to have much help up front. Paulseth only scored 4 goals after the first game playing on the same line as Tardy as well as significant time on both the first and second power play. Nelson scored 11 goals and I would guess he had almost as many very good scoring opportunities as anyone in the state. Randolph only made one line switch all year and that was only two games or East went with the same basic line up all season. When things would get tight he would move Forbort up to attempt to create offense. This created problems at times as Arbour and Welinsky struggled at times to get the puck up the ice, an example would have been vs Cretin where the PP looked messed up. I was surprised that Williams and McLean were not utilized more especially after they played so well coming down the strech.
Forbort leaving had absolutely nothing to do with UMD and Tardy's decsion to have Max play Jrs.

Nonamer
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Post by Nonamer » Thu May 28, 2009 3:34 pm

No one said Forbort leaving was affected by Max Tardy in any way, shape or form. Only thing Max can do at this point in time is confirm Rand's published opinion that high school hockey at East is sufficient preparation for college hockey, or disprove what he said if UMD makes him play a year of junior hockey. May want to re-read, believe you missed the point.

I'm sure more exceptions will be brought forth. Is Rand right or wrong? Only time will tell.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Thu May 28, 2009 4:50 pm

First off, I think Off Sides explains the Forbort as forward situation very well.
Nonamer wrote:No one said Forbort leaving was affected by Max Tardy in any way, shape or form. Only thing Max can do at this point in time is confirm Rand's published opinion that high school hockey at East is sufficient preparation for college hockey, or disprove what he said if UMD makes him play a year of junior hockey. May want to re-read, believe you missed the point.

I'm sure more exceptions will be brought forth. Is Rand right or wrong? Only time will tell.
Okay, I was probably reading into things too much.

I'm not sure if what happens to Tardy will prove or disprove what Randolph has said. How are we to know that Tardy wouldn't have needed another year of juniors, even if he had left before his senior year? People on one side will claim one thing, others will claim another, but there really isn't a very good way of measuring these things right now. I think this misses the point, which is (to get back on topic) that each individual is in a different situation. Some players are going to be perfectly ready to go into D-1 hockey after a normal high school "career," some aren't. And everyone reacts to different coaches in different ways, at any level.

Still, I'm getting the sense that you're not saying everything that you know about this situation. If you'd rather discuss such things via PM, please feel free to do so.

Off Sides
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Post by Off Sides » Thu May 28, 2009 10:23 pm

Nonamer, I am not trying to pick an argument but I think a more important point that Randolph wanted to emphazise is that playing at East will prepare you to play D-1 hockey just as well as leaving high school EARLY. I dont think it is fair to use a graduating senior going to play juniors as your benchmark.

Nonamer
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Post by Nonamer » Fri May 29, 2009 8:06 am

Well, there's the first exception brought forth.

Lakeviewing
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Hockey reality

Post by Lakeviewing » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:27 am

Wisco Dad wrote:When, if ever, does it make sense to play Juniors intead of HS hockey here in MN?
This is most about maturity and size. First of all, if your kid is not on the radar at 15-16 with the development teams or Elite 1- go to college. This is strictly my opinion having kids at this level and had played at the top of the level. First of all, your kid needs to play at the USHAL level for a D1 scholarship. The USHAL level is the only feeder program to D-1, yes there might be a 1 of 100 chance your kid standout at the NAHL or Junior B team level for a chance to play D1 NAHL and junior B teams are all about selling hope and making money. Bottom line, most kids playing at these levels play D-3 level of hockey, which is great if this is the desire. The USHL's teams right now opening tryouts for skaters is all about the checkbook. They make money on parents thinking their kid has a chance. We write a check for $500 to tryout only to get cut because their team is already set. One would have to completely standout and dominate against some 20-21 year old kids. It just isn't going to happen for a high school level kid. These tryout hockey is all about individual play. There is no team play in these tryouts. I have had three kids through this issue. One big and strong kid with scoring potential, one kid as a play maker and set a lot of scoring opportunites and one that played offense and defense steady. however, no interest at my cost. I directed them to college and it has worked out so far.

2pipesnin
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Post by 2pipesnin » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:56 am

Lakeviewing that is one opinion but not very accurate.......check the NAHL teams and look at the number of D1 collage commitments there have been from this years teams! The USHL and NAHL are very close in talent. In the USHL everything is paid for and in the NAHL the only thing you pay for is the "Billet Family" monthly fee. Yes, you have to pay $200 to $300 to tryout but that is a small amount to pay for a life experience for a young hockey player. The friendships and memories can be priceless. There can be some bad experiences as well (it is a business). But I know a lot of players that would not trade those years for anything. Sure, not every player will get a scholarship from playing juniors. But they also have the rest of their life to go to school and work themselves to retirement. I say let the players chase their dreams, anything can happen. And I for one, will not be the dad that has a player many years down the road ask me.....what if i had........
Just another opinion.

2pipesnin
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Post by 2pipesnin » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:40 am

Just a second thought....just because a player did not make 15 or 16's do not let them give up hope and do not give up on them. Every player is different, They mature and grow at different ages of their life. My son did not make 15's or 16's or play Elite I, but did make 17's. I have seen players that never make any select teams and attend a tryout and make a NAHL and USHL team. The point is, if a hockey player really has a dream to play at a higher level. Let them try. Have them work a summer job to pay for the $200 or $300 tryout (not sure where you are paying $500 to tryout. I believe the Buccaneers Invite camp this year is $250 and the team is picking up the hotel rooms for the players) They kids will not regret it. They will either be inspired, or they will come to terms with reality and move on. Let the player decide.

Nonamer
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Hmmm...coach is wrong...hmmm

Post by Nonamer » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:21 am

Max Tardy will be playing junior hockey in Kearney, NE this fall. UMD apparently felt he needed more grooming to get ready for DI hockey. Rand is proven wrong in this instance - even though he worked with Tardy for his entire high school career, and said publicly he prepares players better than junior hockey can, his star goes to juniors.

Whoops - the emperor has no clothes! But, it's all about mike, so what can you say...

Off Sides
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Post by Off Sides » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:47 am

NONAMER, I think your point about what Randolph said is misinterperted and you continue to take your shots at Randolph about what he said. I think his point is that Tardy progressed as much last year toward his career as if he would have played Juniors and that a kid doesnt need to skip his SR year to play Juniors to get to D-1 quicker.
Anyone who can tell you for sure what is best is far better then anyone I know. There are several arguments to leave early and also to stay. Is a kids senior year important? Does it give him an opportunity to be a leader that he might not have in the USHL? Does it give more time on special teams that he might not see in the USHL? Does it matter? On the other side isnt it better to play against better competition? Isnt it better to travel and mature and be away from home? There are not any clear cut answers so I dont understand why you make this a Randolph issue instead of a continuation of an argument that there is no clear answer and for every hockey player the variables are differnt and the outcomes will be differnt too.

Off Sides
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Post by Off Sides » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:50 am

BYW, if Tardy played juniors last year and was going back to Juniors this year it still wouldnt make Randolph right or wrong. UMD doesnt need Tardy to come in this year and probably would have sent him back to Jrs regardless of where he played last year.

woodley
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Post by woodley » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:56 pm

Having watched from the sidelines for many years, it would seem a path that has proven most beneficial to many very good players is to play their senior year, then take a year in the USHL to mature, mentally, physically, and as a hockey player. This presents them with more hockey (and life) experience from which to draw. Playing D1 hockey is a VERY tough life if you are taking school seriously. How many of us greyhairs, looking back now, would have cared one hoot about taking an extra year between high school and college. . . .JMHO. So, my vote is stay and play as a senior, be the team stud, enjoy prom, deepen your friendships, and realize you are still a kid. No need to rush.

Nonamer
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Post by Nonamer » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:43 pm

You know, you're right. I am taking some shots here. I'll stop and let nature take it's course.

Senior year vs Junior hockey? Both can be good choices for any number of different situations.

breakout
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Re: Hmmm...coach is wrong...hmmm

Post by breakout » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:51 am

Nonamer wrote:Max Tardy will be playing junior hockey in Kearney, NE this fall. UMD apparently felt he needed more grooming to get ready for DI hockey. Rand is proven wrong in this instance - even though he worked with Tardy for his entire high school career, and said publicly he prepares players better than junior hockey can, his star goes to juniors.

Whoops - the emperor has no clothes! But, it's all about mike, so what can you say...
Maybe there wasn't room for Max this year. Coaches don't know if their star players will be leaving for the NHL early.

Just a thought.

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