"U18 has some teams that would compete, but even SSM (who is usually one of the best) doesn't roll over the top teams in state..."
What are you basing that statement off of? Opinion or fact?
SSM 9-3-3 in elite league last year
beat Benilde 7-3
beat Holy Angels 7-0
Who's Not Coming Back 09-10?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Tell me which MN HS plays as competitive schedule as most of the Elite AAA programs do. As I said, most of the kids from MN that go to these programs are kids from smaller schools who play weaker schedules overall. Your head is in the sand if you don't think these AAA are filled with very good players. Just in the past USHL draft 75+ draftees came from AAA programs while about 20 came from MN HS. Also in the past futures draft 40+ kids came from AAA programs while about 10 came from MN HS. I am not bashing MN HS hockey as I absolutely love it, I just get sick and tired of these people who bash kids and parents who decide to play elsewhere. And guess what, most of these MN kids that do leave to play in other leagues come back and graduate with their Senior class.mngopherfan wrote:Zero chance that U16 hockey is better than MN high school. U18 has some teams that would compete, but even SSM (who is usually one of the best) doesn't roll over the top teams in state...davey wrote:Who are you to determine if it was a bad decision by the parents, your not in their position. The elite AAA teams like Russell Stover get a ton of exposure and it is great hockey, probably alot better competition overall throughout the season than any Minnesota HS plays. Most of the kids from Minnesota that go there are very good hockey players from the smaller schools who tend to get overlooked by the Elite league for example. Look at the USHL and NAHL rosters and they are filled with kids from these AAA programs. It is just another option for kids.2pipesnin wrote:As mentioned above, these are not necessarily the elite hockey players from MN or any other state. The families do however have access to to a lot of money. The kids that play for these AAA u16 and u18 teams pay about $8,000 a season to play. The teams that they play against are from all over the country.
USHL if free to play
NAHL you only pay $250 a month for host family.
MJHL you pay about $3,500 to play plus host family.
Do the math!
It's not for the elite players...it's for the elite parents.
Bad decision by the parents. Finish high school and enjoy going back to your high school reunions.
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mngopherfan
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Re: ?
I was thinking to when i knew a kid on SSM, that year they beat by BSM 1-0. Didn't know how they did last year.Tenoverpar wrote:"U18 has some teams that would compete, but even SSM (who is usually one of the best) doesn't roll over the top teams in state..."
What are you basing that statement off of? Opinion or fact?
SSM 9-3-3 in elite league last year
beat Benilde 7-3
beat Holy Angels 7-0
Take is easy Davey!!!! Everyone is open to their opinion.
You are correct, there are a lot of AAA players showing up in the USHL and NAHL drafts and rosters. And I do not argue that they are skilled players. The reason for all the AAA rostered hockey players is because outside of MN there are no good high school hockey programs available to them.(reason for your lopsided numbers) So they are forced (some what) to play AAA for the competitiveness and the exposure. Does AAA guarantee a player to the next level....No. There are no guarantees. MN High School Hockey will continue to feel the pressure of AAA hockey moving forward. Do I feel jumping to AAA is the right answer for a MN hockey player?....No, I am not convinced of that yet.
So, the moral of the story is do what you gatta do, and deal with the expense and consequences.
You are correct, there are a lot of AAA players showing up in the USHL and NAHL drafts and rosters. And I do not argue that they are skilled players. The reason for all the AAA rostered hockey players is because outside of MN there are no good high school hockey programs available to them.(reason for your lopsided numbers) So they are forced (some what) to play AAA for the competitiveness and the exposure. Does AAA guarantee a player to the next level....No. There are no guarantees. MN High School Hockey will continue to feel the pressure of AAA hockey moving forward. Do I feel jumping to AAA is the right answer for a MN hockey player?....No, I am not convinced of that yet.
So, the moral of the story is do what you gatta do, and deal with the expense and consequences.
Many schools play a much better schedule than AAA teams do, that's why thekids that leave for AAA come from schools that don't. Russel Stover has taken kids from SE Minnesota pretty regularly over the past few years and the kids they've taken are of the honorable mention all Big Nine caliber, not bad but not great. Is there an advantage going there over staying? That's for each family to decide but recruiters work opn hopes and dreams not reality.
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just the facts
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Who's not coming back
What is your choice when your high school coach has no idea how to develop hockey players and does not really care weather he does?
I would venture to say when USA Hockey puts in place their development plan for elite hockey that there will be a lot more players from Minnesota getting drafted. USA Hockey's plan is to have 36 different elite programs and I would think that Minnesota would get 3 or 4 of those. This would produce about 50 to 70 players each year that would get drafted from Minnesota, in theory.
Every time I read this blog everyone is talking about developing hockey players and after being involved with hockey for 30 years I can honestly say that most players either develop on their own or in practice and if you watch a high school practice the coaches are more concerned with systems rather than developing individual skills. Let's not kid ourselves, all high school coaches are teachers and most of them are there for the MONEY. I bet if you really thought about it you could only name about 10 quality coaches in the public school system.
As far as the Elite 1 and 2 leagues the competition is good but they may only practice once a week so how are they developing? You can only develop so much during games and sometimes kids regress when they are continually developing bad habits because they are playing to many games and not getting quality coaching and practice time.
As far as the comment about U16AAA not being as good as high school I seem to remember that the U16 Team Wisconsin team did very well in the Elite 2 league last year. I watched them play 4 times and they could move the puck a lot better than most high school teams that I saw play last year. I would say if that team had stuck together all of last season they would have given all of the state tournament teams a run for their money because they would have been able to develop individual and team skills over a 4 month period.
Thanks for listening.
I would venture to say when USA Hockey puts in place their development plan for elite hockey that there will be a lot more players from Minnesota getting drafted. USA Hockey's plan is to have 36 different elite programs and I would think that Minnesota would get 3 or 4 of those. This would produce about 50 to 70 players each year that would get drafted from Minnesota, in theory.
Every time I read this blog everyone is talking about developing hockey players and after being involved with hockey for 30 years I can honestly say that most players either develop on their own or in practice and if you watch a high school practice the coaches are more concerned with systems rather than developing individual skills. Let's not kid ourselves, all high school coaches are teachers and most of them are there for the MONEY. I bet if you really thought about it you could only name about 10 quality coaches in the public school system.
As far as the Elite 1 and 2 leagues the competition is good but they may only practice once a week so how are they developing? You can only develop so much during games and sometimes kids regress when they are continually developing bad habits because they are playing to many games and not getting quality coaching and practice time.
As far as the comment about U16AAA not being as good as high school I seem to remember that the U16 Team Wisconsin team did very well in the Elite 2 league last year. I watched them play 4 times and they could move the puck a lot better than most high school teams that I saw play last year. I would say if that team had stuck together all of last season they would have given all of the state tournament teams a run for their money because they would have been able to develop individual and team skills over a 4 month period.
Thanks for listening.
Re: Who's not coming back
I had to chime in on this one. Most coaches make about 25 cents an our for the time they put in to their sport. There's no money in it. Plus, they get the inevitable grief that goes with being in a highly visible position which deals with kids/parents and their dreams.just the facts wrote:Let's not kid ourselves, all high school coaches are teachers and most of them are there for the MONEY.
They don't do it for the pay.
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just the facts
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Who's not coming back
I am sorry you are incorrect about what the coaches make. A head coach for a public school makes roughly $5000.00 per season or more depending on how long they have been there. Add to that a summer program that has 50 to 70 kids in it at $400.00 to $500.00 each and that is a lot of MONEY in my book. That is about $20,000 to $35,000 per season minus about $5000 for expenses.
Take a hockey season which is roughly 16 weeks long, and I am sure the coach shares the proceeds with his assistants, the head coach is making roughly $1,000 a week for about 20 hours a week. Last time I checked $50.00 an hour is a lot of money.
Take a hockey season which is roughly 16 weeks long, and I am sure the coach shares the proceeds with his assistants, the head coach is making roughly $1,000 a week for about 20 hours a week. Last time I checked $50.00 an hour is a lot of money.
Just the facts, maybe you ought to check your math, $5,000 divided by 16 weeks is $312 per week, counting practice time, game time and bus trips you won't find a coach putting in less than 20 hours per week and it's a lot closer to 30 so you're looking at maybe $10 an hour. Add to that the retirement policy no longer counts coaching time and you're taxed at about a %28 rate on that money given what teachers make and it's not a money maker.
Sure Lucia and Tubby Smith can make a lot money running camps but most high school coaches don't, at least nothing more than they would at any part time job. I do think that there are guys who do get in it for the money but they leave soon enough relizing that there is no money in it no matter what they do. That's a huge problem in most schools in nearly every sport, keeping coaches for what really amounts to McDonalds type pay.
Sure Lucia and Tubby Smith can make a lot money running camps but most high school coaches don't, at least nothing more than they would at any part time job. I do think that there are guys who do get in it for the money but they leave soon enough relizing that there is no money in it no matter what they do. That's a huge problem in most schools in nearly every sport, keeping coaches for what really amounts to McDonalds type pay.
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nickel slots
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- Location: Northern Southern Minnesota
This is always a hot debate, and with the way things are trending, not only will it not be going away, it may even gather more steam over the next few years.
The AAA programs (a la Russell Stover, Madison Capitals, TI, etc) provide a viable option to a SSM-type atmosphere, without adding the cost of the private school. For instance, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of $29k to attend SSM, and only another $4k to play hockey there. It's typically in the $5-10k range to play midget AAA hockey at another one of these programs, plus billet fees (typically in the $250/month range), but minus the cost of school (most of the kids still attend public schools in the neighborhoods that their billet families reside).
Not only that, but they do play a more competitive schedule than that of MOST MN high school teams. I saw the Russell Stover team go 2-1 against HS Elite teams at one Elite tourney last fall... you would have a hard time convincing me that some parents wouldn't view that as advantageous to their child. In addition, their off-ice programs are comparable to most junior teams, which high school teams don't touch. Kids that play midgets are normally kids with aspirations of playing above and beyond youth hockey, while most kids that play high school hockey don't. I fully realize that some do... but most don't.
We're blessed to have decent high school hockey in MN... but we're kidding ourselves if we think it offers families the same level of development as Tier I AAA midget hockey (particularly at the U18 level).
The AAA programs (a la Russell Stover, Madison Capitals, TI, etc) provide a viable option to a SSM-type atmosphere, without adding the cost of the private school. For instance, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of $29k to attend SSM, and only another $4k to play hockey there. It's typically in the $5-10k range to play midget AAA hockey at another one of these programs, plus billet fees (typically in the $250/month range), but minus the cost of school (most of the kids still attend public schools in the neighborhoods that their billet families reside).
Not only that, but they do play a more competitive schedule than that of MOST MN high school teams. I saw the Russell Stover team go 2-1 against HS Elite teams at one Elite tourney last fall... you would have a hard time convincing me that some parents wouldn't view that as advantageous to their child. In addition, their off-ice programs are comparable to most junior teams, which high school teams don't touch. Kids that play midgets are normally kids with aspirations of playing above and beyond youth hockey, while most kids that play high school hockey don't. I fully realize that some do... but most don't.
We're blessed to have decent high school hockey in MN... but we're kidding ourselves if we think it offers families the same level of development as Tier I AAA midget hockey (particularly at the U18 level).
Don't sweat the small stuff.
It's all small stuff.
It's all small stuff.
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The Exiled One
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Kids leaving to advance their hockey development and exposure isn't new. It happens everywhere on the planet. Minnesota isn't an exception, it's more of an aberration. All other competitive U18 teams on earth draw kids from outside the immediate area. Minnesota is the only place where small geographic areas can create world class competitive U18 teams... but not everywhere in Minnesota.
The good news is that Minnesota will continue to produce a few world class U18 teams and many fantastic players. But the bad news is that, in this ever shrinking world, more kids will have the resources and opportunities to find world class options elsewhere.
There's is... STILL... nothing like winning the Minnesota State High School Championship. But, if you figure your team doesn't have a chance.... well....
The good news is that Minnesota will continue to produce a few world class U18 teams and many fantastic players. But the bad news is that, in this ever shrinking world, more kids will have the resources and opportunities to find world class options elsewhere.
There's is... STILL... nothing like winning the Minnesota State High School Championship. But, if you figure your team doesn't have a chance.... well....
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youngblood08
- Posts: 1007
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Re: Who's not coming back
The big FACT you are missing about Wis U16AAA is that the kids are from all over Wisconsin. MN high school teams are one TOWN in most cases. Do you really think that in Minnesota there would be only 1 AAA club team? If that day ever comes they had better limit the number of teams so it doesn't turn into the watered down summer AAA we now have.just the facts wrote:What is your choice when your high school coach has no idea how to develop hockey players and does not really care weather he does?
I would venture to say when USA Hockey puts in place their development plan for elite hockey that there will be a lot more players from Minnesota getting drafted. USA Hockey's plan is to have 36 different elite programs and I would think that Minnesota would get 3 or 4 of those. This would produce about 50 to 70 players each year that would get drafted from Minnesota, in theory.
Every time I read this blog everyone is talking about developing hockey players and after being involved with hockey for 30 years I can honestly say that most players either develop on their own or in practice and if you watch a high school practice the coaches are more concerned with systems rather than developing individual skills. Let's not kid ourselves, all high school coaches are teachers and most of them are there for the MONEY. I bet if you really thought about it you could only name about 10 quality coaches in the public school system.
As far as the Elite 1 and 2 leagues the competition is good but they may only practice once a week so how are they developing? You can only develop so much during games and sometimes kids regress when they are continually developing bad habits because they are playing to many games and not getting quality coaching and practice time.
As far as the comment about U16AAA not being as good as high school I seem to remember that the U16 Team Wisconsin team did very well in the Elite 2 league last year. I watched them play 4 times and they could move the puck a lot better than most high school teams that I saw play last year. I would say if that team had stuck together all of last season they would have given all of the state tournament teams a run for their money because they would have been able to develop individual and team skills over a 4 month period.
Thanks for listening.
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hockeyboys
- Posts: 221
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i give these kids a lot of credit for chasing the dream. But, i still don't completely understand it. I see them choosing their college based on "where I can play hockey" I always thought the choice of college was supposed to be based on the education and perhaps based on what major or field a kid is interested in. And I see them giving up their high school years - when they will never hava chance to play in the NHL. I realize a D-1 scholorship is the ultimate goal - but who really wants to go to Alabama - Huntsville for the education?
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Educator29
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The Exiled One
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I haven't seen any current high schoolers on any NAHL rosters yet. Let me know if you've seen something I haven't. As for the MNJHL, I think Joey Benik showed that doing a before/after there is a viable option, so I don't think names on those rosters mean much of anything yet.Educator29 wrote:I see the NAHL and the MNJHL are starting to list there Rosters. actually quite a few HS SR's on the rosters. Are most leaving the JR team when HS season starts?
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Daulton911
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The NAHL and the MN Highschool Hockey Rules / transfer rules are not all that enclusive to be a before and after player. Unless you live in, or very near by the town of the team. Or I guess if your home schooled.
The MNJHL is a very good source for that elite HS Player to start filling their resume with JH experince while still remaining eligible for their HS season. Seems to be about 2 - 3 HS players per team that are playing the split season. There are a few more younger players, but in most part they do not see much, if any, game time - they are just there for developing purposes.
The MNJHL is a very good source for that elite HS Player to start filling their resume with JH experince while still remaining eligible for their HS season. Seems to be about 2 - 3 HS players per team that are playing the split season. There are a few more younger players, but in most part they do not see much, if any, game time - they are just there for developing purposes.
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PeterDenton
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The Exiled One
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The Exiled One
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No worries, it looks like the only Minnesotans the Stampede picked up are already graduated.The Exiled One wrote:There were lots of Minnesotans who tried out for Sioux Falls of the USHL. The Stampede are one of the two USHL teams who haven't released their roster yet, but it should be coming out later this week. I might not be available, so for those interested, keep your eyes open.
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The Exiled One
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Faust and Crandall are both playing in the Elite League, so it looks like they won't be in the USHL for any significant time this season.The Exiled One wrote:The 25 man rosters are starting to be released. Again, these guys could do a "Before & After", but USHL teams try to avoid doing that as it wastes a roster spot for most of the regular season.
Des Moines
Joe Faust - Bloomington-Jefferson
Sioux City
Joe Schmitz - Centennial
Justin Crandall - St. Thomas Academy
And Schmitz graduated last year.The Exiled One wrote:Faust and Crandall are both playing in the Elite League, so it looks like they won't be in the USHL for any significant time this season.The Exiled One wrote:The 25 man rosters are starting to be released. Again, these guys could do a "Before & After", but USHL teams try to avoid doing that as it wastes a roster spot for most of the regular season.
Des Moines
Joe Faust - Bloomington-Jefferson
Sioux City
Joe Schmitz - Centennial
Justin Crandall - St. Thomas Academy
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The Exiled One
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Thanks. So I think that's it then... the first post is the complete list unless I hear otherwise.dueling21 wrote:And Schmitz graduated last year.The Exiled One wrote:Faust and Crandall are both playing in the Elite League, so it looks like they won't be in the USHL for any significant time this season.The Exiled One wrote:The 25 man rosters are starting to be released. Again, these guys could do a "Before & After", but USHL teams try to avoid doing that as it wastes a roster spot for most of the regular season.
Des Moines
Joe Faust - Bloomington-Jefferson
Sioux City
Joe Schmitz - Centennial
Justin Crandall - St. Thomas Academy
There is always a chance. What kind of person doesn't think they have a chance? That is called optimism and being part of a "team".The Exiled One wrote:Kids leaving to advance their hockey development and exposure isn't new. It happens everywhere on the planet. Minnesota isn't an exception, it's more of an aberration. All other competitive U18 teams on earth draw kids from outside the immediate area. Minnesota is the only place where small geographic areas can create world class competitive U18 teams... but not everywhere in Minnesota.
The good news is that Minnesota will continue to produce a few world class U18 teams and many fantastic players. But the bad news is that, in this ever shrinking world, more kids will have the resources and opportunities to find world class options elsewhere.
There's is... STILL... nothing like winning the Minnesota State High School Championship. But, if you figure your team doesn't have a chance.... well....
Minnesota high school hockey is an envy of the hockey community in general. Disagree, ask people from other states how much they pay for hockey per child and the elitist direction their programs have headed in. Any idea of drop out rates of later maturing kids in other states? Johnny quits hockey at 14 because he couldn't make the "Honey Bake" Minor Midget squad.
High school hockey embodies what Herb Brooks wanted to do "broaden the pyramid". It gives more kids the opportunity to play. The Elite Leagues and before and after opportunities along with summer AAA programs give players other alternatives. Plus there are a million and one ways to gain training.
If you are good enough, they will find you. Plenty of examples of that in Minnesota high school hockey.
Go away ........... which 10 year reunion will you go to? I guess you can suck on a long piece of straw in Kearny Nebraska. Bruce Springsteen ...... Glory Days.
OK, I am done with my rant. Hope everyone has a wonderful evening.
Last edited by breakout on Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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karl(east)
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