Open Enrollment Clarification

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ilike2score
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Open Enrollment Clarification

Post by ilike2score » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:34 pm

I understand that Minnesota Schools have an open enrollment policy? I have to admit I am ignorant on this subject, that is why I pose a couple questions I hope you can help me with. My understanding is any public school student can enroll in any other public school? Or is there limits on what other public schools you can enroll in? With this open enrollment policy would it be possible for a sports team, or a drama team, or a speech team, or a math team, to obtain the best students available from multiple school districts under the guise of open enrollment to create super teams who would then dominate at the State level. I again say I am ignorant on the open enrollment and I am asking for help on where to find the Open Enrollment Policies. I would then ask for clarification on how private schools are different than public schools in regards to where the students come from. By definition could not Private Schools Students come from anywhere, and could not Public School Students come from anywhere based on open enrollment?

Goldfishdude
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Post by Goldfishdude » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:09 pm

It's been talked about before on the forum, but I cannot find the thread... Basically, open enrollment means you have to enroll at the school of your choice at the first grade level, which I assume is 9th grade for all schools in the state.

Otherwise, for transfering, there is a section on the MSHSL website that defines how the transfer rules take place.

ilike2score
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Post by ilike2score » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:26 pm

hypothetical here...could all of the members of the 98 machine open enroll in Apple Valley..... and all the members of the 98 blades open enroll in Wayzata?

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:33 pm

ilike2score wrote:hypothetical here...could all of the members of the 98 machine open enroll in Apple Valley..... and all the members of the 98 blades open enroll in Wayzata?
Yes.

Will it happen? No.
The U invented swagger.

ilike2score
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Post by ilike2score » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:42 pm

so you have confirmed there is open recruiting of youth hockey players to high schools outside their area of residence?

Goldy Gopher
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Post by Goldy Gopher » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:47 pm

ilike2score wrote:so you have confirmed there is open recruiting of youth hockey players to high schools outside their area of residence?
Yep. That's exactly what I said. :roll:
The U invented swagger.

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER
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Post by ACTUALFORMERPLAYER » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:52 pm

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#472272
What is your issue with where you live?

sllek
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Post by sllek » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:14 pm

Just as a clarification, although students can open enroll at any school for their 9th grade year, most schools only reserve a certain number of slots for open enrollment. This would, at least theoretically, make it difficult for an entire youth team to open enroll at the same school.

Goldfishdude
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Post by Goldfishdude » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:24 am

sllek wrote:Just as a clarification, although students can open enroll at any school for their 9th grade year, most schools only reserve a certain number of slots for open enrollment. This would, at least theoretically, make it difficult for an entire youth team to open enroll at the same school.
Good point, slleker... I forgot about that point... One of my 100 ex-girlfriends wanted to get her daughter in Mounds View HS to be with her cousins, as we lived in Roseville district, and I think it was a lottery for the open enrollment..... MV only allowed a handful.

BigWorm
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Post by BigWorm » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:30 am

Goldy Gopher wrote:
ilike2score wrote:hypothetical here...could all of the members of the 98 machine open enroll in Apple Valley..... and all the members of the 98 blades open enroll in Wayzata?
Yes.

Will it happen? No.
I agree that it will never happen but... In BASKETBALL???... Lebron James' AAU basketball team all enrolled at a private school; St. Mary's St. Vincents and won the state title their Freshman, Sophomore, and Senior (also won National Title) years while finishing runner up their Junior year. Basketball is different obviously but I think if year round AAA youth hockey teams ever become big in MN something similar could possibly happen but is very very unlikely. I also think that this would never fly in a public school scenario only in a private..

observer
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Post by observer » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:54 am

Several strong and popular schools having waiting lists for out of district enrollment so it would be difficult to plan. They could all pool and go to a school with declining enrollment.

hockeydad
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Post by hockeydad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:03 am

Open enrollment as a statewide policy really has nothing to do with hockey or sports. It simply states that school districts are required to allow students to transfer to another district. Districts can only close themselves to open enrollment if there are concerns about school overcrowding. There are literally thousands of kids who are open enrolled in other districts, the vast majority of them having nothing to do with hockey or any other sport. And yes, the districts are allowed to recruit students - but not for athletic purposes.

The MSHSL transfer policy addresses transfers of all kinds, including open enrollment. Students can transfer at any time they wish. However, if they transfer after beginning ninth grade without a corresponding change in residence, they must forfeit a calendar year of eligibility at the varsity level. They can play on non-varsity team. Because of various legal issues, the league does allow exceptions to this rule, If they didn't, the rule would likely be thrown out by the courts.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:33 am

Open enrollment "should" be about acedemics. Some reasons are for transportation. Most are for athletic or socioeconomic reasons. The MSHSL should out right ban any athlete from playing sports for a HS outside of the attendance boundary of their primary residence. (Divorce situations with two residences would require a choice at 9th grade) Private school athletes would only be elgible if they reside within the public school boundary that coincides with the private school. (i.e. living within the bussing area) Driving from say Hastings to play for Hill-Murray would not be allowed.

LASERBLUE135
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Post by LASERBLUE135 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:59 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Open enrollment "should" be about acedemics. Some reasons are for transportation. Most are for athletic or socioeconomic reasons. The MSHSL should out right ban any athlete from playing sports for a HS outside of the attendance boundary of their primary residence. (Divorce situations with two residences would require a choice at 9th grade) Private school athletes would only be elgible if they reside within the public school boundary that coincides with the private school. (i.e. living within the bussing area) Driving from say Hastings to play for Hill-Murray would not be allowed.
That whole statement is laughable. Your kid can't play sports at a private school unless they live in the district? What if there is NO private school in the district and you want to send you child to a private? My kid does not like sports at all (to my eternal sadness), but he's an excellent student. I would like him to go to Edina HS because I can't afford a private school. Do you think that if by chance he was an exceptional athlete that he should be BANNED from sports because his parent wants him to go to the best possible school? Laughable.

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:12 am

hockeydad wrote:Open enrollment as a statewide policy really has nothing to do with hockey or sports. It simply states that school districts are required to allow students to transfer to another district. Districts can only close themselves to open enrollment if there are concerns about school overcrowding. There are literally thousands of kids who are open enrolled in other districts, the vast majority of them having nothing to do with hockey or any other sport. And yes, the districts are allowed to recruit students - but not for athletic purposes.

The MSHSL transfer policy addresses transfers of all kinds, including open enrollment. Students can transfer at any time they wish. However, if they transfer after beginning ninth grade without a corresponding change in residence, they must forfeit a calendar year of eligibility at the varsity level. They can play on non-varsity team. Because of various legal issues, the league does allow exceptions to this rule, If they didn't, the rule would likely be thrown out by the courts.
As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments. But, for the most part, if you plan early enough you can get into another school nearby you if you'd like.

If you transfer for a legitimate reason (we all know what is legit and what isn't) you can still play sports, or any other activity. The real difference is that you don't have to sit out transferring to a private school and you do at public schools. Which personally I think is dumb.

So, really, there's two differences:
1. For the most part, anyone can go anywhere, BUT with exceptions there are some public schools that have limitations to who they accept.
2. Transfers to private schools don't have to sit out like they do at public schools.

Thoughts:

-Where you can go is about school facilities and money. Schools need so much money to operate and get money based on taxes and how many students they have in their school. Students leave, they lose money. More students come, class sizes get bigger. Etc, etc.

-People "dislike" private schools because they "can recruit for sports" with the emphasis on the word "can." Just like any other business, private schools recruit to get customers. Sports are a recruiting tool. It is illegal for coaches to seek out individual players, but it is not illegal for a school to advertise their program and its amenities. There are public basketball, hockey, football, etc teams every year who have stars who are from other communities. As well as private schools.

-A student can not make a public school team, transfer to private school and try out and play. Not the other way around, that's dumb. Private school students who transfer simply for sports should have the same penalty.

-Most people who end up at private schools were going to go to one anyway. I was not a star of anything at the private school I went to, but public schools were out of the option anyway. Many like Danny Mattson are the same, someone who never had plans to go to the public schools in his area, for whatever reasons, and attend the private school of their choice.

Once you get beyond the idea of recruiting and understand that both public and private schools do what they can to get the best students, academically and athletically, they can, the issue is respect and ignorance about topics. People, from both sides, get on this board and in public and say things about the domain they have not experienced that are far from the truth.
I'll be the first to admit that until recently I didn't know much about public schools and have talked to people about them; likewise I've answered questions about private schools.

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:32 am

LASERBLUE135 wrote:
BadgerBob82 wrote:Open enrollment "should" be about acedemics. Some reasons are for transportation. Most are for athletic or socioeconomic reasons. The MSHSL should out right ban any athlete from playing sports for a HS outside of the attendance boundary of their primary residence. (Divorce situations with two residences would require a choice at 9th grade) Private school athletes would only be elgible if they reside within the public school boundary that coincides with the private school. (i.e. living within the bussing area) Driving from say Hastings to play for Hill-Murray would not be allowed.
That whole statement is laughable. Your kid can't play sports at a private school unless they live in the district? What if there is NO private school in the district and you want to send you child to a private? My kid does not like sports at all (to my eternal sadness), but he's an excellent student. I would like him to go to Edina HS because I can't afford a private school. Do you think that if by chance he was an exceptional athlete that he should be BANNED from sports because his parent wants him to go to the best possible school? Laughable.
LASERBLUE135,

You bring up two huge issues in the open enrollment discussion:

1. Despite what this poster may want you to believe, the vast majority of open enrollments are not for athletic reasons. Penalizing kids by not letting them play sports for wanting a different (probably more PC than "better") education is absurd.

2. The idea should be to make the school districts we live in good enough for everyone, not to simply move to one that is better. My parent and relatives went to the private school I went to, but if they hadn't, I still wouldn't have wanted to attend my home private school for various reasons and would've open enrolled somewhere else. That shouldn't be the case. People simply leaving doesn't help the issue, simply makes it worse. Not blaming anyone specifically, just bringing up the issue.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:20 pm

I 100% stand behind my premise. Further support of my position has been the change of the "residency rules" for MN Youth Hockey. There are 1,000's of kids open enrolling around the state. I know on the application form, writing the reason for the request as "hockey" would probably not get the request granted. So the request is for transportion, obscure course offerings and socioeconomic reasons. In the olden days, you either played for your home town school, or you found a new job and moved.

And yes, schools are for education. Extra-curricular activities need not be granted for open enrollments. That kid(s) took the spot from a home town resident.

And I love the stories of "My grandfather went to Hill, my Father went to Hill, I went to Hill, just because I live in X-City, my kid will go to Hill. (And hopefully make it to the State tournament because X-City never will)

ilike2score
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Post by ilike2score » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:24 pm

I am still not clear on the open enrollment policy. Is there a weblink somewhere that has it spelled out for Minnesota? From the responses to my original post what I understand is that all Public Schools have the ability to draw students from anywhere just like the Private Schools?

Teak
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Post by Teak » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:37 pm

No Political Connections wrote:If I understand it right a kid can transfer into a school prior to day 1 of the 9th grade with no restrictions on what level of an extracurricular they participate in. A kid could be on the A team for the Math Club, the First Lookers Line for the Astronomy Club or (for example) the Varsity level of the hockey team. If the kid transfer into the school on or after Day 1 of the 9th grade they are not eligible to play varsity hockey for one year. They can play JV though.
I tell you what *really* irritates me is how these schools go out and stack their Astronomy Clubs through covert recruiting. It is truly sickening. I go galactic at the thought.

:lol:

ilike2score
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Post by ilike2score » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:11 pm

I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

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As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?

No Political Connections
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Post by No Political Connections » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:36 pm

ilike2score wrote:I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 4638

As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?
...
Last edited by No Political Connections on Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Northhcky
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Post by Northhcky » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:49 pm

ilike2score wrote:I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 4638

As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?
Hermantown has a "very" i repeat "very" limited open enrollment in just a few grades. They just tried and failed to pass a $53 million bonding bill to enlarge all 3 schools. They allow some grades that are not at capacity to be filled by open enrollment to get as much money from the state as they can. As far as transfers for hockey or other sports HSHW is correct you will not be allowed to transfer for that reason. You have to move into the district. Case in point...virtually all of this years hockey team have been in Hermantown since mini-mites. There are one or maybe 2 whos parents moved into the district at the squirt or pee-wee level.

Northhcky
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Post by Northhcky » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:58 pm

No Political Connections wrote:
ilike2score wrote:I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 4638

As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?
Pretty sure they allow open enrollment, at least at the lower grade levels. Not sure about high school level but I have heard that they do have it at the lower grades. I have heard that one of the havens that people have been going to to get out of the Duluth School system's current situation is Hermantown.
You are correct on both counts. They have allowed limited open enrollment at the lower grades that are not at capacity. And yes most have come from Duluth because of the uncertainty there. The HS however is over capacity now. 10th grade for instance has around 190 students and i think ideally they would like to have grade sizes in the current school around 160. And someone correct me if i am wrong but in this area (not sure if its statewide) but even if you transfer schools under open enrollment you still would have to play your youth hockey, (using that because its a hockey topic) at your place of residence. For instance if someone from out East tranfered to Hermantown under open enrollment they would still have to play their youth hockey for east.
So IMHO i think the lady was wrong in her beliefs that there were kids playing sports under open enrollment and she had no legit arguement.

No Political Connections
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Post by No Political Connections » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:26 pm

Northhcky wrote:
No Political Connections wrote:
ilike2score wrote:I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 4638

As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?
Pretty sure they allow open enrollment, at least at the lower grade levels. Not sure about high school level but I have heard that they do have it at the lower grades. I have heard that one of the havens that people have been going to to get out of the Duluth School system's current situation is Hermantown.
You are correct on both counts. They have allowed limited open enrollment at the lower grades that are not at capacity. And yes most have come from Duluth because of the uncertainty there. The HS however is over capacity now. 10th grade for instance has around 190 students and i think ideally they would like to have grade sizes in the current school around 160. And someone correct me if i am wrong but in this area (not sure if its statewide) but even if you transfer schools under open enrollment you still would have to play your youth hockey, (using that because its a hockey topic) at your place of residence. For instance if someone from out East tranfered to Hermantown under open enrollment they would still have to play their youth hockey for east.
So IMHO i think the lady was wrong in her beliefs that there were kids playing sports under open enrollment and she had no legit arguement.
I think you are wrong about where you play hockey. They came out with a one time selection to allow you to choose between the 2. I know of kids who live in Duluth and used to play with Lakers teams who transfered in to the Hermantown Schools and also play hockey at Hermantown. Also the same for East for at least one kid that I know of.

Northhcky
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Post by Northhcky » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:32 pm

No Political Connections wrote:
Northhcky wrote:
No Political Connections wrote:
ilike2score wrote:I wonder how true this statement is from hockey watcher?

HShockeywatcher

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 4638

As mentioned above there are limitations. Hermantown, for example, doesn't allow any open enrollments.

The reason I ask is About two weeks ago I was watching a youth game with a teacher from a neighboring district to Hermantown. Neither of us had kids involved...but she stated and was very adamant that she hoped Hermantown lost. I asked why? Her response was open enrollment! I reminded her that the district she teaches in gains more students from open enrollment than it loses. And she quickly changed her tune. So does Hermantown not allow open enrollment as HShockeywatcher stated, or was the teacher from a neighboring district accurate in her dislike?
Pretty sure they allow open enrollment, at least at the lower grade levels. Not sure about high school level but I have heard that they do have it at the lower grades. I have heard that one of the havens that people have been going to to get out of the Duluth School system's current situation is Hermantown.
You are correct on both counts. They have allowed limited open enrollment at the lower grades that are not at capacity. And yes most have come from Duluth because of the uncertainty there. The HS however is over capacity now. 10th grade for instance has around 190 students and i think ideally they would like to have grade sizes in the current school around 160. And someone correct me if i am wrong but in this area (not sure if its statewide) but even if you transfer schools under open enrollment you still would have to play your youth hockey, (using that because its a hockey topic) at your place of residence. For instance if someone from out East tranfered to Hermantown under open enrollment they would still have to play their youth hockey for east.
So IMHO i think the lady was wrong in her beliefs that there were kids playing sports under open enrollment and she had no legit arguement.
I think you are wrong about where you play hockey. They came out with a one time selection to allow you to choose between the 2. I know of kids who live in Duluth and used to play with Lakers teams who transfered in to the Hermantown Schools and also play hockey at Hermantown. Also the same for East for at least one kid that I know of.
I do know of one kid that is new to the HS progrm this year that i'm pretty sure came from East that is a sophmore on the JV team. But i also know for a fact that his parents bought a home in Hermantown and physically moved there. Like i said i "i believe" under the open enrollment policy with the youths they still have to play in the location of residence. Maybe someone on here that knows for sure could comment.

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