Elite League Goalie Experiment: FAIL?

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

Post Reply
Shinbone_News
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:50 am

Elite League Goalie Experiment: FAIL?

Post by Shinbone_News » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:59 pm

I thought it was silly when the UMHSEL announced their plan to "rotate" 9 goalies among the8 teams (to supposedly give them more exposure). They said at the time that Minnesota hasn't produced enough elite level goalies, and this was somehow supposed to address that. But looking at the stats so far, I have to say it looks like this group is having a heckuva time keeping the puck out of the net. Only two goalies have 90+ save percentage (and the highest is barely over 91%) and their GAAs are abysmal. The games I've seen have all been high scoring both ways.

What's going on here? Lots of good goalies were excluded from the league this year, to what end????

brandy38
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 9:41 pm

Post by brandy38 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:40 pm

Well, they do have a point that MN doesn't develop enough elite goalies. Very few Minnesotan goalies have forged decent NHL careers recently. Stalock looks like our best hope at the moment if he can recover from that awful knee injury.

As far as the ELITE league goalies having bad stats, I would blame that on the open gameplay. The players all know each other, so it's not the most physical hockey in the world.

pioneers
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:05 pm
Location: St Paul

Post by pioneers » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:27 am

I agree. There is not usually a lot of team defense played. Also remember, that the forwards are some of the best in the state.
Pioneers 1983, 1991 and 2008 State Champions

CB00
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:04 pm

Re: Elite League Goalie Experiment: FAIL?

Post by CB00 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:35 am

Shinbone_News wrote:I thought it was silly when the UMHSEL announced their plan to "rotate" 9 goalies among the8 teams (to supposedly give them more exposure). They said at the time that Minnesota hasn't produced enough elite level goalies, and this was somehow supposed to address that. But looking at the stats so far, I have to say it looks like this group is having a heckuva time keeping the puck out of the net. Only two goalies have 90+ save percentage (and the highest is barely over 91%) and their GAAs are abysmal. The games I've seen have all been high scoring both ways.

What's going on here? Lots of good goalies were excluded from the league this year, to what end????

You also quoted: Topic: Goaltending problems Shinbone_News
Subject: Goaltending problems


Stats on goalies are notoriously worthless. GAA is worse than worthless. Save percentage is barely a starting point, and rather a rough way to tell if a goalie is worthless or not (80 percent or less, ...


Not sure I follow you. First, you state goalie stats are worthless, then you create a topic stated how your judging the goalies success in the Elites by stats.


The Elite league is not built for goalies, it's like the old Houston Oilers "Run and Gun" offense. Not a lot of system play or defense. Have you ever watched the NHL All Star game. Those goalies stats would not be so good either.

What goalies were excluded? One can always make a case for someone "left out."

The reason the Elite did the rotation is not to develop goalies. You really think an extra half a game a weekend is going to develop goalies? The reason it was done is the scouts were asking the league to be able to see the goalies more. There was talk of having only six. This would be difficult as there are injuries, sickness, etc... Instead they came up with a system the has 3 goalies a game, two play and one is a backup. This has worked well and the goalies now play two full games a weekend, rather then a game and a half. If your a goalie parent, you can appreciate this. I think it has been very successful and support it. My son is one of the goalies and he also thinks it is great. The other part I like about the rotation is a goalie isn't on the same team all year long. There is a difference in the talent level on the teams. This makes for a more balanced schedule, one goalie isn't playing with the best or worst team all year.

The Elite games are fun to watch as the kids can really fly, great hockey. But if your a goalie parent it can be an up and down, roller coaster ride.

Kudos to the Elites for trying to help the goalies. Right or wrong, this is the first time any league has taken game time for goalies into consideration. They also have a goalie coach, he does a great job in the limited time to talk with the goalies after games to go over their game. It's a difficult job as there is only one goalie coach for the league, but 18 player coaches, three on a bench every game. Many weekends the games are in different parts of the state and the goalie coach can't attend all the games. Want to help goalies, teach them correctly and coach them consistently. If my kids math teacher only showed up once a week to class, he most likely will fail the class. Most teams and associations in MN still don't address this need, then we all complain that the goalies in MN are up to the elite level. Most teams don't have a goalie coach, or if they do it's some dad who knows nothing about the position and creates bad habits for the young goalies. Most practice plans for goalies, go shoot on the goalie.
:wink:

I think another step in the right direction for Elites would be to have additional goalie coaches who can help run practices for goalies and be at more games. This would help in the development.

Shinbone_News
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:50 am

Post by Shinbone_News » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:41 am

Touche. So stats are dubious, but everyone agrees they are a starting point and just about the only way to try to talk objectively about goalie performance, comparing one to another. (I also said I thought below 90% save percentage, with plenty of games factored in, is cause for concern).

If exposure and not development is the goal of this approach, it seems to me they should have MORE goalies, not fewer. Goalies get hot, goalies get cold. Pressure is a good test. Why not have THREE goalies per team and have them each play a period? I mean, as long as we're open to experimenting.

I agree that elite level play is very run-and-gun oriented, but a great goalie should be able to stand on his head in any scenario, and if not, then why pretend that this "exposure" is doing any of them any good?

If the limited resources (i.e. goalie coaches) are dictating this new approach, then (as you say) get more goalie coaches. They aren't hard to find. In fact, limiting the league to one coach pretty much guarantees that an unbiased assessment is not possible, especially in the tryouts phase.

What's most troubling is touched on by Pioneers:
Also remember, that the forwards are some of the best in the state.
Are we therefore agreeing that the best skaters are a league above the best goalies in MN? If so -- and that's entirely possible -- then we have a lot more work to do than picking fewer tenders to be in the elite league.

Good goalies MIA:

Stumpf
Jecha
Vukelich
Bergquist
Carlson
Pierce
Lindgren (though he went to juniors??)
Last edited by Shinbone_News on Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

ripping1
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by ripping1 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:56 am

I totally agree!!! Great job Elite League!!! Stats show very little. This is much better for all the goalies. They are all excellent goalies as are the players. What really shows here is how they play in all situations and varying talent levels. The scouts want to see how these goalies play in all situations not just on the team with the best defense or that can score the most goals. Players get 3 games a week and the goalies still only get 2 with this rotation. The reason so many goalies in MN are overlooked is because they do not get the game time that other goalies across the country get. This is trying to help that. Everyone gets better by playing period.
There were not a lot of good goalies overlooked there were 3 that did not make it because they went with less this year. It would be the same if they decided to run with a shorter bench, less players would make it. This is a great experience for the goalies to get to play with all different levels of talent, different coaching styles and practice plans.

I hope they continue this practice going forward. The only change I would suggest is more goalie coaches. The one coach does an excellent job of watching the games and talking to the goalies after the games but he has a huge responsibility with the Elite and the Elite D goalies to cover. It would be great for him to have a few coaches that could scatter themselves at practices. Very few coaches know what to do with a goalie so the plan is just shoot on them.

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2679
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:01 pm

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:28 pm

Terrible decision and you are correct on exclusions.
Parker over Jecha are you kidding me?
Can anybody besides Randolph justify that move....really?
But serious folks we all know there are no politics involved here.
It is all on the up and up. :wink: :wink: :wink:

blueblood
Posts: 2620
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Goalies vs. Skaters

Post by blueblood » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:56 pm

Why is it good to have 18 to 20 skaters per team and only 1 goalie?

Why doesn't the philosophy of playing against the top talent makes better HOCKEY PLAYERS apply to goalies?

I am not a fan of the leagues decision.

P.S. I don't have a horse in this race, so don't say, imply or insinuate my kid was cut and should have been playing...

slyer
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: anoka

Post by slyer » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:31 pm

i actually thought the goalies would have a more difficult time, pretty good numbers for playing against the best in the state, pp must be awful tough. gotta be hard on the goalies and parents

mngopherfan
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:50 am

Post by mngopherfan » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:22 am

northwoods oldtimer wrote:Terrible decision and you are correct on exclusions.
Parker over Jecha are you kidding me?
Can anybody besides Randolph justify that move....really?
But serious folks we all know there are no politics involved here.
It is all on the up and up. :wink: :wink: :wink:
If they took Jecha then people would be crying about having two goalies from Benilde. The elite honchos are in a tough spot, everyone thinks someone else deserves it over someone who got it. It is what it is, but all in all it's great for the MN kids...

northwoods oldtimer
Posts: 2679
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:01 pm

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:28 pm

mngopherfan wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:Terrible decision and you are correct on exclusions.
Parker over Jecha are you kidding me?
Can anybody besides Randolph justify that move....really?
But serious folks we all know there are no politics involved here.
It is all on the up and up. :wink: :wink: :wink:
If they took Jecha then people would be crying about having two goalies from Benilde. The elite honchos are in a tough spot, everyone thinks someone else deserves it over someone who got it. It is what it is, but all in all it's great for the MN kids...
Oh yes,you got that right for sure.

zyzxx
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:52 pm

Post by zyzxx » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:15 pm

northwoods oldtimer wrote:
mngopherfan wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:Terrible decision and you are correct on exclusions.
Parker over Jecha are you kidding me?
Can anybody besides Randolph justify that move....really?
But serious folks we all know there are no politics involved here.
It is all on the up and up. :wink: :wink: :wink:
If they took Jecha then people would be crying about having two goalies from Benilde. The elite honchos are in a tough spot, everyone thinks someone else deserves it over someone who got it. It is what it is, but all in all it's great for the MN kids...
Oh yes,you got that right for sure.
Elite D has two Eden Prairie goalies and two Edina goalies. No one is complaining about it at that level.

mngopherfan
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:50 am

Post by mngopherfan » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:36 am

zyzxx wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:
mngopherfan wrote:
northwoods oldtimer wrote:Terrible decision and you are correct on exclusions.
Parker over Jecha are you kidding me?
Can anybody besides Randolph justify that move....really?
But serious folks we all know there are no politics involved here.
It is all on the up and up. :wink: :wink: :wink:
If they took Jecha then people would be crying about having two goalies from Benilde. The elite honchos are in a tough spot, everyone thinks someone else deserves it over someone who got it. It is what it is, but all in all it's great for the MN kids...
Oh yes,you got that right for sure.
Elite D has two Eden Prairie goalies and two Edina goalies. No one is complaining about it at that level.
Elite D is a whole different animal...

Post Reply