Hermantown vs. Denfeld

[PuckRanger]

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the majority simply blame those who are successful for being successful instead of discussing what can be done to help those not as successful be more successful, which is the real issue at heart"

So I will take up the "real issue at heart". If we want to help those not as successful be more successful, getting Breck and STA out of Class A would be a great start.

I agree, rainier.

I know we're probably straying too far off topic here, but I have to say that what HShockeywatcher fails to realize, and we've beaten this horse to death a few times on this board in the past, is that the sole reason hockey was split into two classes was to give the small schools who do not have the ability to draw from a large talent pool an equal playing field. Like it or not, that is what it was designed for, not to make a second great tournament. STA, Breck, among others do not fit the bill in this regard, no matter how you try to spin it. If you want to play in the "great" tournament, you opt up - that is why that option was made available.

Those 5 public schools HShockeywatcher keeps mentioning in his defense are actually the same 2 schools, Hermantown and Warroad... who probably should have been playing the likes of Little Falls, Virginia, Thief River Falls, or Albert Lea in the championship.

Hermantown and Warroad are the anomalies, not the norm. 95% of the remaining class A public schools have not even seen a state tournament game. HShockeywatcher seems to think the other 70 class A schools should all bring their game up to the level of AA schools as the likes of STA and Breck do, instead of moving those teams with their AA advantages into actual AA.

As far as recent private school domination goes, lets look at it by section:
1A: Rochester Lourdes - Almost an automatic entrant in St. Paul every year.
2A: Pretty much Blake or Breck every year
3A: Not applicable - No private schools
4A: STA the regular #1 seed. Totino-Grace sneaks in occasionally. Mahtomedi is the only public school to win it in quite some time.
5A: Duluth Marshall was here for a while, St. Cloud Cathedral has won it a couple times. Hermantown is the only public school contender on a regular basis.
6A: NA - No private schools
7A: Virginia is the only team that has beaten Duluth Marshall in section play since they joined section 7A (and it took overtime every time)
8A: NA - no private schools.

So, we have 3 public schools automatically in to St. Paul because there are no privates in three sections, so they don't have to deal with it.

That leaves 5 sections. In those 5 sections, there are 3 teams combined that give the private schools problems - Mathtomedi, Hermantown, and Virginia. -- Thats it! When it gets to St. Paul, the section 8A team competes, so you can add a 4th.

Consider this:
Class A is comprised of 85% public schools... 4 or 5 occasionally compete to the current level of Breck, STA, etc.

The other 15% of class A is private schools... and we almost always have 4 or 5 of them at the state tournament and 7 or 8 ranked in the top 15.

Just to drive it home:
Public: 85%..... out of which we get 4 or 5 teams
Private: 15%... out of which we get 7 or 8 teams

I'd say with those statistics coupled with all of the championships and overall success in state tournament play that private schools are dominating the class A scene.

Money and football are irrelevant in this discussion. Its about what the 2 class system was designed for... a more level playing field for smaller schools with smaller numbers and thus by nature, fewer resources.

Its not all about championships, its about the ability to realistically compete for one. It is obvious that HShockeywatcher and the rest of the folks at his alma-matter don't understand this as STA still tries to win Class A titles rather than compete for one in class AA.

The only reason I am directing this mostly at you, HShockeywatcher, is that you are the only one vigorously defending these points despite all the information that is put forward that you either choose to spin, discredit, or ignore; and I (and many others) am just not understanding nor agreeing with much of what your trying to say.

[pekyman]

Great post PuckRanger! Thank you

[HShockeywatcher]

Those 5 public schools HShockeywatcher keeps mentioning in his defense are actually the same 2 schools, Hermantown and Warroad... who probably should have been playing the likes of Little Falls, Virginia, Thief River Falls, or Albert Lea in the championship.

I haven't "kept mentioning" any teams. I simply responded to the inaccurate statement made. Just like there wasn't a "private school problem" (if you consider it a problem) in 4A football when ONE private school kept doing well, it was a problem of one school being successful.

The 5 schools I was referring to, Hermantown, Warroad, Orono, Simley and Red Wing, are the 5 public schools who made it to the state finals in the 12 year period listed.

I know we're probably straying too far off topic here, but I have to say that what HShockeywatcher fails to realize, and we've beaten this horse to death a few times on this board in the past, is that the sole reason hockey was split into two classes was to give the small schools who do not have the ability to draw from a large talent pool an equal playing field. Like it or not, that is what it was designed for, not to make a second great tournament. STA, Breck, among others do not fit the bill in this regard, no matter how you try to spin it. If you want to play in the "great" tournament, you opt up - that is why that option was made available.

I don't have the time to respond to your whole post, but I'll do what I can; I was not around high school hockey during the split to a failed tier system back in the early 90s, nor was I two years later when they went to a class system. And I have never seen a message on the hockey page of the MSHSL website saying something along the lines of "we want the good teams in AA and the bad team in A, etc, etc." Sorry, but I haven't. If it's there, direct me to the link. What I have seen is that the sport is divided into classes the same way every other sport we have is divided. Then there are opt ups (but for some reason you can't opt down).

In this time I have also seen a tournament with similar quality teams in the semi's and finals less watched, and rightly so because of the time slots it gets, than the other tournament. When a private school wins "they should opt up" but when a public school, often one who has had more long term success than the privates "is fine being in Class A and congrats for beating the private school."

I have also seen the basketball team recognized as the "best in the country" a 4A team in a state with 5 classes. And never did I hear or read an article that they should opt up (their state doesn't allow it, since it's a class system). I have seen this same thing with football teams on ESPN, baseball teams, etc, etc. Your class has zero to do with how good you are, it is simply a classification of the size of your school. Period.

But wait; hockey's different? We should have 5-7 private schools opt up, around 7-10 public schools and watch bad schools play for the state championship every year?

Anyway, happy holidays everyone. Enjoy the next couple days with family and friends.

[PuckRanger]

I was not around high school hockey during the split to a failed tier system back in the early 90s, nor was I two years later when they went to a class system.

I was. And I monitored the discussion and arguments as the process was implemented very closely. The whole idea was to get teams like Silver Bay, Lake of the Woods, and Chisholm/Cook (at that time) away from having to compete with the Bloomington Jeffersons and Edinas because these schools didn't have the ability to field a full JV team while the big schools were cutting players. Schools like Chisholm and Mesabi East among many others were desperately trying to salvage their hockey programs... In the case of these two and some others, it didn't work out. You can now see some other teams following down their path right now since that level playing field still does not exist for them.

Small hockey-rich traditional schools like Roseau and Greenway didn't want this, as they still wanted to compete with the big schools. Thus, they tried the 2 tier system. That didn't work as the northern teams from section 7 tier II were good enough to play with the teams in the Tier I state tournament and in fact Greenway won Tier II in 1993 and they took it as a joke and were still miffed that they got put into teir II to begin with. The seeding process was a problem in the deep sections. Then there was Rosemount, a team with a record of 0-19-1 going into section play, making it to the state finals. Obviously this system didn't work very well, so the MSHSL followed the lead of basketball, baseball, and football and went with the class system based on enrollment. Once again, the Roseaus and Greenways of the world didn't want anything to do with not being able to play with the big schools... So, the opt-up option was added - without it, the class split would not have happened without some real bloodshed.

Note, At this time, the only private school that was any kind of real threat in hockey was Hill-Murray and they were opting up, so there was no talk of what to do with the private schools.

And I have never seen a message on the hockey page of the MSHSL website saying something along the lines of "we want the good teams in AA and the bad team in A, etc, etc." Sorry, but I haven't. If it's there, direct me to the link. What I have seen is that the sport is divided into classes the same way every other sport we have is divided. Then there are opt ups (but for some reason you can't opt down).

I've never seen that on the MSHSL website either - and why would you? It has nothing to do with good or bad teams... it has to do with the an equal playing field. What part of that don't you get? I never said, insinuated, nor implied that good teams go to AA and bad teams to A. As stated above, the opt-up was there to appease the small schools who were opposed to the 2-class split. Opting down is a ridiculous notion in and of itself.

In this time I have also seen a tournament with similar quality teams in the semi's and finals less watched, and rightly so because of the time slots it gets, than the other tournament.

Thats correct. If you want the prime time exposure, you have to opt up and be successful at that level.

When a private school wins "they should opt up" but when a public school, often one who has had more long term success than the privates "is fine being in Class A and congrats for beating the private school."

Yes, because the public schools that win are operating from within the confines of their school district and are true class A size schools with true class A resources at their disposal. Its a credit to their program that they rise to the top of the class -especially when they have to compete with the private schools. Private schools on the other hand win it with class A size schools with AA type resources at their disposal. They simply don't belong there. If you think its a coincidence that all these private schools suddenly just popped onto the radar a few years after the class split, you`d be a fool. If there were no class A in hockey, STA, BSM, Breck, Duluth Marshall, etc, would likely still be the doormat teams they were before the split as they would not have been able to garner that recognition that allows them to continue to draw players into their programs.

I have also seen the basketball team recognized as the "best in the country" a 4A team in a state with 5 classes. And never did I hear or read an article that they should opt up (their state doesn't allow it, since it's a class system). I have seen this same thing with football teams on ESPN, baseball teams, etc, etc. Your class has zero to do with how good you are, it is simply a classification of the size of your school. Period.

I agree... However MN hockey has the opt up because of the traditional schools as mentioned above. That is what makes it different. This has no bearing on what I said about private schools. Private schools have a AA talent pool at their disposal. That is the argument for them to be in AA, not how good they are. I don't think private schools should opt up, I think they should be placed in AA by the MSHSL to begin with.

But wait; hockey's different? We should have 5-7 private schools opt up, around 7-10 public schools and watch bad schools play for the state championship every year?

YES, hockey is different. It is not as cut and dried as you think it should be. There is a rich tradition in hockey and that class split was years in the making and ruffled A LOT of feathers when it happened. Hockey does not have the same number of teams and classes as football and basketball, and football and basketball do not have the tradition behind them them as hockey does. How many MN high school basketball or football discussion boards have you been on lately? Thats right, probably none.

I've said it three times already, and I'll say it again since your main theory seems to be a goal of getting two nearly equal state tournaments... It's not about creating a second great tournament, its about creating a level playing field for the smaller schools.

That actually happened for a few years, thus you saw Red Wing, Orono, Simley, Eveleth, and some others in the state tournament. Then the private schools began taking advantage of the system and that has now come to a complete halt.

Anyway, happy holidays everyone. Enjoy the next couple days with family and friends.

Merry Christmas and enjoy the holidays.

[HShockeywatcher]

Hey PuckRanger, I thought I'd just write a few (maybe more than that) comments/questions instead of quoting everything you said to save space. I don't have the answers, nor an I pretending to. I have questions and opinions, and I'm not saying they're "right." I don't believe I have a "side" beyond what is "right" (whatever that is). Also, I enjoy the discussion and devil's advocate of an "issue" that seems to not have a necessarily correct answer.

What does "leveling the playing field" really mean? I'm not asking in any tone, simply want to know.
I can't see anything beyond getting rid of successful programs. There are programs that are in AA because of the co-ops they have; programs that do not get enough draw from their schools to have a program so they need to co-op and end up in AA. Winona, for example, is a Class A size school. Their co-op with Cotter, St Charles and Hope Lutheran brings their total enrollment into AA numbers. The same is true for Mpls schools. Not sure how that "levels" anything.

"Opting down is a ridiculous notion in and of itself"
Why? It's about leveling the playing field, right? So, if schools can be small and have more advantages in some ways so they should be playing with the big schools, it can't be possible a school is bigger but doesn't have some and should be playing down?

Without getting into any specifics, I doubt anyone involved in high school sports anywhere is really naive enough to believe that all private schools and only private schools have advantages over all public schools. If that is not true, under those premises, then there should be specific public schools mandated to go up as well, right?

After looking at the 21 programs (that I counted, I may have missed some) that are private or part of a private co-op I don't think it would be a huge deal to put them all in AA. I think It would be a disservice to a handful of schools and not the best decision for hockey in general.

Would you (not you specifically, people in general) really want a Class A without private schools? You would end up with 5-10 "good" public schools and the list of schools in the final for the next ten years would have 3-4 schools in it most likely. I would bet a handful more public schools would end up opting up. I doubt many would want that.

The MSHSL seems to be quite responsive to what coaches around the state want; they are adding a 6th class in football in the next couple years because coaches want it. Regardless of the reasons for what was done almost 20 years ago, we are in the end of 2011 at the moment. I have no doubt that if a consensus of coaches from the public schools around the state really wanted the private schools put in classes in a way other than they are today, they would be.
We have the MSHSL (whoever that is) and coaches that have no publicly made policy as to where the private schools should be. They are assigned based on enrollment. If the MSHSL and consensus of coaches haven't done anything in that regard, why is it "irresponsible" of any schools for staying in the class they were assigned?

"the Roseaus and Greenways of the world didn't want anything to do with not being able to play with the big schools... So, the opt-up option was added"
Things may have been different 20 years ago, but today the class you are in has nothing to do with who you can schedule during the regular season.

"- without it, the class split would not have happened without some real bloodshed."
This implies that your class has anything to do with their talent level. In almost any year, were many of the [public] schools that have opted up to run the table with their schedules and win the state title, they would be respected as the best team in the state. (Not sure, but I'm guessing the same would be true for a public school currently in A with a schedule playing some big schools)

To conclude all that I've said, I am personally indifferent if St Thomas (my alma mater), or any other private schools, were "put" in AA. Were St Thomas, Breck and Duluth Marshall arbitrarily "put" in AA and no other schools "just because", it would be odd, but I doubt many would complain. I wouldn't.

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the majority simply blame those who are successful for being successful instead of discussing what can be done to help those not as successful be more successful, which is the real issue at heart"

So I will take up the "real issue at heart". If we want to help those not as successful be more successful, getting Breck and STA out of Class A would be a great start.

Whether intentional or unintentional, the intent of the question was obviously missed. I can't think of another situation (there may be specifics, not the point) where the same logic is applied that is applied here.

Think of any example, call it an annoying friend, abusive parent, car company that changed a policy, etc, etc, where you were doing one thing (in this case being a part of the public school system) something changes and you choose to do another (in this case, attend a private school). You spend less time with those who are annoying, get out of abusive family situations, buy different cars when things change, etc, etc. No one blames you for not being "loyal" to your friends, family or businesses.
There are many who attend private schools because of family ties. There are many as well that do not and go there for whatever reason they want but were part of the public school system before. Instead of trying to change, or at least understand, why they are leaving (as you would logically with any analogy you come up with) public school supporters simply "blame" the student and their families for leaving.

I don't know all the reasons, nor will I pretend to, but whatever they are, fixing those reasons, or some of them, or advocating for them to be fixed would logically be the way to fix these issues. Instead of blaming people for leaving, why not get them not to leave in the first place?
This is not a hockey issue necessarily, so I don't know how appropriate it is to discuss much of it.

[northernhockey13]

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the
7A: Virginia is the only team that has beaten Duluth Marshall in section

Thats not true, sorry. Denfeld beat them when they joined 7A last year.

[HShockeywatcher]

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the
7A: Virginia is the only team that has beaten Duluth Marshall in section

Thats not true, sorry. Denfeld beat them when they joined 7A last year.

The comment was made about sectional play. That being said, I think it's a pretty odd point; Marshall has been in 7A for 4 years and made it to state once. While you are right that Virginia has been the only team to beat them, they have been beat them the last three years in a row. All 1 goal games, 2 of them OT.

So, while it has been only 1 team, they've been beat 3 of the 4 years in the section.

[Redlight]

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the majority simply blame those who are successful for being successful instead of discussing what can be done to help those not as successful be more successful, which is the real issue at heart"

So I will take up the "real issue at heart". If we want to help those not as successful be more successful, getting Breck and STA out of Class A would be a great start.

I agree. Between those two, they have won 7 of the last 12 titles and will probably add to that number again this year. Those two programs are simply the very best at recruiting not only students (as all privates have to do to survive) but they both focus heavily on getting highly talented Hockey players as well. In my mind, as long as there is a two tiered State tourney these two programs should opt up, man up or be FORCED up.

A better solution may be to go back to one 16 team State tourney with the winner of each Section playing in a true State tourney.

[PuckRanger]

Fair enough HSHW, you say "the
7A: Virginia is the only team that has beaten Duluth Marshall in section

Thats not true, sorry. Denfeld beat them when they joined 7A last year.

The comment was made about sectional play. That being said, I think it's a pretty odd point; Marshall has been in 7A for 4 years and made it to state once. While you are right that Virginia has been the only team to beat them, they have been beat them the last three years in a row. All 1 goal games, 2 of them OT.

So, while it has been only 1 team, they've been beat 3 of the 4 years in the section.

HShockeywatcher is right; it was referring to playoffs only, northernhockey13... And technically it was Central that beat them.

The point was that if Virginia had not been in their way, they probably go state for 7 straight years. They were coming off a run at state where they took 3rd followed by three straight runner-up finishes before the losses to Virginia. Prior to Marshall joining the section, 7A becomes moot in this discussion as they have no other private schools.

We probably should kill this discussion -at least in this thread, anyway. It has strayed quite a bit from Denfeld vs. Hermantown.

[HShockeywatcher]

The point was that if Virginia had not been in their way, they probably go state for 7 straight years. They were coming off a run at state where they took 3rd followed by three straight runner-up finishes before the losses to Virginia. Prior to Marshall joining the section, 7A becomes moot in this discussion as they have no other private schools.

That same logic could be used to say that if Warroad was not in 8A, there would've been many more teams from out of state going to state.
With no opting and all privates in AA, you see the same AA schools at state every year, for the most part.
With opting and all privates in AA, you see the same AA schools at state every year and the same A schools at state every year.

While I don't think it matters overall (helping HF) for individual schools, my guess is that more good, young hockey players would move to AA schools' districts, go to private schools or OE to them if all privates were forced up and overall be horrible for hockey in MN.

We probably should kill this discussion -at least in this thread, anyway. It has strayed quite a bit from Denfeld vs. Hermantown.

Yeah, probably not the right title for the discussion, but there is one every year; why start another?

It is a very good topic with no absolute right answer that many have something to contribute to and all can learn a thing or two from. All of us grew up (or are currently growing up) with our own experiences; no two are the same and none are "wrong."
Most are ignorant of what is going on from experiences they didn't have and there are many non-truths out there about both "sides" of the discussion.
If there were no sides and instead a common goal and the point of the discussion was the learn, the discussion would be much different than it usually is.