Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

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whos_it
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:06 pm

Post by whos_it » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:18 am

As I read through this string there are many good points ..... I land on one (1) class again. Problem solved. As far as private schools go, they usually put a pretty awesome game on the ice for us to watch. If you are just a hockey fan and don't get caught up in "what is fair" these schools typically provide us with some awesome entertainment.

Gems
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:42 am

Post by Gems » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:20 am

whos_it wrote:As I read through this string there are many good points ..... I land on one (1) class again. Problem solved. As far as private schools go, they usually put a pretty awesome game on the ice for us to watch. If you are just a hockey fan and don't get caught up in "what is fair" these schools typically provide us with some awesome entertainment.
Agreed...

EHSHack
Posts: 717
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:09 pm

Post by EHSHack » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:35 am

I dont understand why so many on here want to take the dream away from so many kids... move the trophy chasers up but do you really think kids from Eveleth, Greenway, or Red Wing give a crap that they won it in A and not AA? Hell no! All they care about is the fact that they got to Image with their friends! Let A serve it purpose. Kids who go to small schools have dreams too. Some of the schools like STA need to be reviewed by the MSHSL.
Go Hounds.

Redlight
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:56 am

Post by Redlight » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:44 am

ONE CLASS, ONE 16 TEAM STATE TOURNAMENT. IT FIXES EVERYTHING !!!!

Nostalgic Nerd
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:16 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Post by Nostalgic Nerd » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:08 am

Redlight wrote:ONE CLASS, ONE 16 TEAM STATE TOURNAMENT. IT FIXES EVERYTHING !!!!
One class is the only real resolution (not sure about 16 field though). You cannot demand that all privates move up and not investigate the possibility that some publics are doing it also. Yes, privates do much more of it, but if recruiting is the issue than everyone has to be examined. And since there's no practical way of accomplishing this without an extended amount of resources used, you either go to one class, or you have two classes like we do now with enrollment numbers as the determiner and a "no transfer" rule in place. Emotion should have no say on this issue. Emotion should have no say in aligning the sections to any kind of manipulation which favors a certain "type" of team ("northern", "small town", "private"). It is based on geograph because of the financial cost of travel. Let the teams fight it out on the ice with a minimal amount of rules to prevent abuse. But that's it. To do so otherwise creates another set of problems.
I can splash in the rink puddles!

rainier
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:30 pm
Location: Earth

Post by rainier » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:29 pm

I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.

Northhcky
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:52 pm

Post by Northhcky » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:45 pm

rainier wrote:I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.
=D>

MHGr8ness
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by MHGr8ness » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:56 pm

rainier wrote:I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.
=D>

thestickler07
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 pm

Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:05 pm

rainier wrote:I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.
*Cue world's smallest violin*

Ok now that we are past that melodramtic monologue about "fairness" and "shame" I'll try my own hand at painting a little more of a realistic picture of how things stand.

STA has been good for the past 7 or so years, they built a new hockey rink through private fundraising and hired new coaches. To call the program anything but trendy as of yet would be overselling them. They have had good success in a level of hockey where for a vast majority of the program's history success would've been defined by not going out in the first round of sections.

Let's not be coy about the issue, people don't like STA because they are private and they win. Period. There are enough private school haters in the state to begin with; add in enough sore losers and you got a sizable vocal contingent of anti-private lemmings to fan the flames.

Privates know a lot of people don't like them right off, no surprise to anyone. You hear enough "daddy's money" and "cake eaters" chants that after awhile you have to begin to wonder if they have been teaching anything new in the public schools. But I digress, I'm not here questioning the literary chops of metro area publics, I'm questioning their motivation for biting the hand that feeds them.

That's right, the hand that feeds, those bastions of administrative shame and cowardice that you despise so much keep your struggling program afloat. Imagine if the MSHSL did what so many of the haters have been advocating; a single section for privates or a return to a private school tourney would be a disaster for MN high school hockey. How long before getting the shaft (oh and leave the ignorant gay jokes out too, you'd think half the publics were taught by rednecks by how many times you hear EDITED or queer directly at an all male student population) would it take for the privates to just say "screw it" and make their own league? Not long.

You think they poach talent now, wait until the MSHSL has no say over their actions. 60 game schedule, offseason practice, top tier education and connections to dozen of Ivy League and other prestigious schools just to start. Oh I forgot, you better believe if the top privates (AHA, HM, BSM, etc) go full hockey factory that they will be able to offer housing through host families as well, I don't think I need to spell out what that means for retaining stars for public schools.

You'll get the occasional dynamo who wants to forgo the perks of playing advanced level hockey and wants to represent the hometown, which I must say is admirable. But as a whole you'll water down the competition like the punch at a Mitt Romney campaign stop. I don't want to see high school hockey in MN die, quite the contrary I actually want a 16 team combined class state tournament, but that's another post entirely...

In the end a two-sided message to private complainers everywhere:
1. Be careful what you wish for, when the level of competition for HS hockey is like FCS football and BSM/HM/STA/AHA/HF are playing on a different plain don't say you weren't warned.
2. Haters gonna hate at the end of the day. Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success. Its feeling more and more like high school hockey is becoming a PC zone, with new hitting rules, constant bickering about successful programs to the point of wanting to change the system completely, etc.

Is this the lesson plan kids in public schools have been learning from these days, when you can't beat someone change the rules? Sad...

Edit: Funny how words like "pile of sticks" is deemed inappropriate for an anonymous message board but is common in the vernacular of too many student sections in the state.

Also this whole topic:
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/131784.gif

shins
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:18 pm

Post by shins » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:14 pm

thestickler07 wrote: *Cue world's smallest violin*


That's right, the hand that feeds, those bastions of administrative shame and cowardice that you despise so much keep your struggling program afloat. Imagine if the MSHSL did what so many of the haters have been advocating; a single section for privates or a return to a private school tourney would be a disaster for MN high school hockey. How long before getting the shaft (oh and leave the ignorant gay jokes out too, you'd think half the publics were taught by rednecks by how many times you hear EDITED or queer directly at an all male student population) would it take for the privates to just say "screw it" and make their own league? Not long.

You think they poach talent now, wait until the MSHSL has no say over their actions. 60 game schedule, offseason practice, top tier education and connections to dozen of Ivy League and other prestigious schools just to start. Oh I forgot, you better believe if the top privates (AHA, HM, BSM, etc) go full hockey factory that they will be able to offer housing through host families as well, I don't think I need to spell out what that means for retaining stars for public schools.

You'll get the occasional dynamo who wants to forgo the perks of playing advanced level hockey and wants to represent the hometown, which I must say is admirable. But as a whole you'll water down the competition like the punch at a Mitt Romney campaign stop. I don't want to see high school hockey in MN die, quite the contrary I actually want a 16 team combined class state tournament, but that's another post entirely...

In the end a two-sided message to private complainers everywhere:
1. Be careful what you wish for, when the level of competition for HS hockey is like FCS football and BSM/HM/STA/AHA/HF are playing on a different plain don't say you weren't warned.
2. Haters gonna hate at the end of the day. Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success. Its feeling more and more like high school hockey is becoming a PC zone, with new hitting rules, constant bickering about successful programs to the point of wanting to change the system completely, etc.

Is this the lesson plan kids in public schools have been learning from these days, when you can't beat someone change the rules? Sad...

Edit: Funny how words like "pile of sticks" is deemed inappropriate for an anonymous message board but is common in the vernacular of too many student sections in the state.

Also this whole topic:
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/131784.gif
ummm.. ok, I think the whole point of this was not that they should be abolished, but that they do not fit into the concept of small school / class A hockey

blueliner2day
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:13 am

Post by blueliner2day » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:17 pm

thestickler07 wrote:
rainier wrote:I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.
*Cue world's smallest violin*

Ok now that we are past that melodramtic monologue about "fairness" and "shame" I'll try my own hand at painting a little more of a realistic picture of how things stand.

STA has been good for the past 7 or so years, they built a new hockey rink through private fundraising and hired new coaches. To call the program anything but trendy as of yet would be overselling them. They have had good success in a level of hockey where for a vast majority of the program's history success would've been defined by not going out in the first round of sections.

Let's not be coy about the issue, people don't like STA because they are private and they win. Period. There are enough private school haters in the state to begin with; add in enough sore losers and you got a sizable vocal contingent of anti-private lemmings to fan the flames.

Privates know a lot of people don't like them right off, no surprise to anyone. You hear enough "daddy's money" and "cake eaters" chants that after awhile you have to begin to wonder if they have been teaching anything new in the public schools. But I digress, I'm not here questioning the literary chops of metro area publics, I'm questioning their motivation for biting the hand that feeds them.

That's right, the hand that feeds, those bastions of administrative shame and cowardice that you despise so much keep your struggling program afloat. Imagine if the MSHSL did what so many of the haters have been advocating; a single section for privates or a return to a private school tourney would be a disaster for MN high school hockey. How long before getting the shaft (oh and leave the ignorant gay jokes out too, you'd think half the publics were taught by rednecks by how many times you hear EDITED or queer directly at an all male student population) would it take for the privates to just say "screw it" and make their own league? Not long.

You think they poach talent now, wait until the MSHSL has no say over their actions. 60 game schedule, offseason practice, top tier education and connections to dozen of Ivy League and other prestigious schools just to start. Oh I forgot, you better believe if the top privates (AHA, HM, BSM, etc) go full hockey factory that they will be able to offer housing through host families as well, I don't think I need to spell out what that means for retaining stars for public schools.

You'll get the occasional dynamo who wants to forgo the perks of playing advanced level hockey and wants to represent the hometown, which I must say is admirable. But as a whole you'll water down the competition like the punch at a Mitt Romney campaign stop. I don't want to see high school hockey in MN die, quite the contrary I actually want a 16 team combined class state tournament, but that's another post entirely...

In the end a two-sided message to private complainers everywhere:
1. Be careful what you wish for, when the level of competition for HS hockey is like FCS football and BSM/HM/STA/AHA/HF are playing on a different plain don't say you weren't warned.
2. Haters gonna hate at the end of the day. Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success. Its feeling more and more like high school hockey is becoming a PC zone, with new hitting rules, constant bickering about successful programs to the point of wanting to change the system completely, etc.

Is this the lesson plan kids in public schools have been learning from these days, when you can't beat someone change the rules? Sad...

Stickler - not only do you have a top 10 post but by far the top post with no one even close. Simply outstanding commentary!

rainier
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:30 pm
Location: Earth

Post by rainier » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:50 pm

"Let's not be coy about the issue, people don't like STA because they are private and they win."

No, people hate STA because they draw from an AA-sized talent pool yet choose to stay in A. Sure, I don't love teams like H-M and BSM, but their titles are totally legit, STA and Breck's are not.

"That's right, the hand that feeds, those bastions of administrative shame and cowardice that you despise so much keep your struggling program afloat."

So now MN HS hockey should be grateful that the private schools are keeping the sport afloat? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. This ridiculous and unjustified attitude of superiority is just another reason that people root against private schools.

"1. Be careful what you wish for, when the level of competition for HS hockey is like FCS football and BSM/HM/STA/AHA/HF are playing on a different plain don't say you weren't warned. "

First of all it's "plane", not "plain", which should be plain to someone with such a superior HS education, and second of all, if H-M, with their decades of success, hasn't done this by now, no one is. Your laughable threats are as empty as your team's victories in Class A tourneys.

"2. Haters gonna hate at the end of the day. Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success. Its feeling more and more like high school hockey is becoming a PC zone, with new hitting rules, constant bickering about successful programs to the point of wanting to change the system completely, etc."

So it's PC to expect a school to play in the class that they are most suited to play in? It's PC to expect some schools to stop abusing the system? The fact that other metro privates went AA reduces any already weak argument you have to dust. Holy Family didn't even wait until they had success in A before moving up; how bad does that make Breck and STA look?

"Is this the lesson plan kids in public schools have been learning from these days, when you can't beat someone change the rules?"

No, the lesson plan has been more like, "Respect others, respect the game, and don't stoop to the level of those who would put winning before integrity."

Go ahead and keep trying to defend the indefensible, it is quite entertaining.

thestickler07
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 pm

Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:07 pm

shins wrote: ummm.. ok, I think the whole point of this was not that they should be abolished, but that they do not fit into the concept of small school / class A hockey
I appreciate that sentiment, but I think you're missing the principle of the matter. If STA/DM/Breck opted up and won titles at the same pace what would the talking points for the haters be? The same things, "they can recruit, they offer "athletic scholarships", they poach youth programs" blah blah blah.

Simply put the class A privates play where they are assigned, the MSHSL has made it clear that the only kind of competitive balance they desire is within enrollment divisions. In the perpetual search of "making kids feel good" and creating a PC utopia where everyone feels like a winner the MSHSL is at the forefront, even labeling classes A-6A in some sports, because the winner of the top class isn't the "best" they are simply the best of the biggest. To put it more simply, don't hate the player (STA) hate the game (MSHSL).

Typing out posts here crying to supporters of a school who a lot of you have insulted and chided to change their ways is more futile than the winner of section 3A. Pen a letter to the MSHSL asking for an Open Division or something of the sort for varsity sports, that's more meaningful than virtually picketing a certain Mendota Heights all-male, Catholic, college-prep military school. And as a matter of fact I'd support a switch to an open division for hockey. Best 16 schools regardless of size/geography seeded and played off over a week? Count me in.

But that will never happen, because then all the public talking heads won't have anything to complain about after privates win again. Keep chuckling at your backwater bigotry and sense of moral superiority from the other side of the arena, I'll take the banners and trophies.

rainier
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:30 pm
Location: Earth

Post by rainier » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:20 pm

"Keep chuckling at your backwater bigotry and sense of moral superiority from the other side of the arena, I'll take the banners and trophies"

It's not a "sense" of moral superiority, it is actual moral superiority, and your statement is a great example of why this is true. Why don't you petition to get your HS team in the Bantam tourney too, there would be a couple more trophies for you. All that matters is winning, right?

Because your uber-education probably prevents you from understanding my backwater, public school English, I will make this as simple as possible:

1. STA draws from an AA-sized talent pool, thus they should be in AA.
2. Other metro privates have opted up to AA; what's STA's excuse?

Just Checking
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Post by Just Checking » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Northhcky wrote:
rainier wrote:I don't get why so many comments advocate going back to one class. Two classes has no effect whatsoever on the AA tourney. Take the top 4 seeds in A, would any of those have made it to state if the tourney was one class? TRF lost 7-0 to Moorhead, STA lost twice to H-M, Breck would have a tough time getting out of 6AA, and Herm may have given East a run for its money, but East would have been the favorite.

Having a Class A tourney does not affect the AA tourney, period. Just don't watch on Wednesday, Friday afternoon, or Saturday afternoon and you won't even know there are two classes. No more inferior hockey games for you AA snobs to suffer through, what could be better?

The issue here is that there are teams drawing from AA-sized talent pools masquerading as A-sized teams. Nearly all of the other schools surrounding the private schools in the Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud are AA sized, and a significant portion of the top hockey talent from these large communities congregates at the private schools, thus they should be considered AA schools.

And enough with the idiotic "punishing success" argument already. Exploiting a loophole in the two class system is not achieving "success", it is an underhanded and unethical choice made by the administrations of schools that claim to be bastions of integrity, respect, and leadership. The message this sends to their students is, in effect, "Winning is more important than integrity and good citizenship." Bravo.

Real Class A teams can improve their youth programs, facilities, coaching, and community support, but they cannot add an extra 1,500 kids to chose from. Private schools in large communities can.

Hats off to teams like BSM, H-M, AHA, and Holy Family for doing the right thing. Only the internal moral compass of these other "A" private school administrators can change this situation, so we may not see it anytime soon, given said compass seems to not be functioning. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that shame is wholly ineffective against those who are shameless.

Enjoy your trophies.
=D>
Yes let us applaud rainier. A person of true moral fortitude. All he cares about is the small town boys. The ones who have their hearts broken each year by true evil immoral private schools who just want trophies and fame :lol: :lol:
Wow. Rainier how truely insperational, spoken like someone who really would like to see Hermantown not have to play STA, Breck, DM, or Lourdes :wink: they could win the A titile every year.

No just kidding, I am sure you are a real defender of the masses I am glad you have the backs of the boys in the small towns who just want a fair chance against the privates.

You or I have no clue why the people running the private school programs chose to stay down or move up. I suppose some think that it gives them credibility (HF) others it is part of their indentity (HM) AHA. Other won and figured they should try for higher goals, BSM. I suppose some may chose to stay down for a want to minimize the importance of the Athlete in Student Athlete.

They are students first, and who cares if they play A, it is just JV hockey anyway right?

How' my grammer?

Just Checking

thestickler07
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 pm

Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:38 pm

rainier wrote:No, people hate STA because they draw from an AA-sized talent pool yet choose to stay in A. Sure, I don't love teams like H-M and BSM, but their titles are totally legit, STA and Breck's are not.
They draw from an "AA sized" talent pool by virtue of playing in the metro. Nothing short of physically relocating the campus is going to change this, so I don't see what you're getting at. Plenty of schools have this same "unfair" advantage, and technically every metro area school has open enrollment so it doesn't really matter.
So now MN HS hockey should be grateful that the private schools are keeping the sport afloat? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. This ridiculous and unjustified attitude of superiority is just another reason that people root against private schools.
Now they shouldn't be no, but if they do what so many on this board have been advocating for, ie kicking them out, one section etc, then privates leaving WOULD sink Minnesota HS hockey. Look at the East coast public school hockey if you want a glimpse of a privateless sytem. Also it seems we have a chicken before the egg scenario with "the reason people root against private schools", like I said before, haters are gonna hate. People are going to invent reasons not to like them so I can't be concerned what the manufactured reason is in this specific instance. Also its funny that people talk about this attitude of superiority while simultaneously talking about STA/Breck winning too many state titles, I wonder who gave them the idea they were better?
First of all it's "plane", not "plain", which should be plain to someone with such a superior HS education, and second of all, if H-M, with their decades of success, hasn't done this by now, no one is. Your laughable threats are as empty as your team's victories in Class A tourneys.
Thank you for politely giving me the heads up on the misuse of the word. Unfortunately now I have to use my "superior" (your words not mine) high school english education to inform you about context. At this point in my post I'm discussing things in the future sense, as in what could likely happen one day in the future if privates are kicked out of competition.

So it's PC to expect a school to play in the class that they are most suited to play in? It's PC to expect some schools to stop abusing the system? The fact that other metro privates went AA reduces any already weak argument you have to dust. Holy Family didn't even wait until they had success in A before moving up; how bad does that make Breck and STA look?
"Most suited" is your opinion. I'm looking at things how they are, not how they ought to be, stop straw manning this and take my words at face value instead of injecting your vitriolic personal prejudices into it. I mentioned that before but it was lost on you I'll rephrase; The MSHSL puts schools in classifications based on size, generally schools of similar size are most "suited" to play against each other competitively. Before I get crucified, generally means more often than not, and not all the time. If you have a problem with how they do things bring up your issues to the MSHSL.
No, the lesson plan has been more like, "Respect others, respect the game, and don't stoop to the level of those who would put winning before integrity."
Respect the game and respect others, something we can both agree on thankfully. So I take it this is a response in support of my desire for a meaningful effort to cease degrading and bigoted chants from other fan bases? Because you're unsurprisingly reluctance to not mention any specifics from my other post in this part of your response in particular leaves a lot of ambiguity on where you stand.

Go ahead and keep trying to defend the indefensible, it is quite entertaining.
[/quote]

What is there to defend? STA playing where the MSHSL assigned them? *shrug* I'd love to see STA beating up on EP/Tonka/CDH etc, but the administration has made it clear that's not a priority of theirs. Unlike a lot of you, I've actually taken pen to paper and finger to keys in multiple messages to them about it. I don't like that STA plays below the "top class" in anything. But again I realized that me throwing a tantrum like a baby isn't going to change anything, so I went about influencing the decision in the most positive and constructive ways I could, namely withholding donations until they choose to play up.

Do you know what an Open Division format is like? Is it something you'd support? It might solve all the problems you are railing about so vigorously.

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:44 pm

thestickler07 wrote: Maybe if you focused on more on your own programs than ours you'd have more success.
I've been saying this for a while, but it's not the concern for some reason.

Look around the state [and country] at the number of private schools. New schools are starting more and more now as well as, along with that, new hockey programs. It is a serious societal issue that students leave at the rates they do, for any reason. If our public schools can't be where students go for academic and athletic resources, that is not a good sign.

There is a problem around the state [and country] and instead of discussing ways to help it, people simply point fingers. It isn't seen by many of the good hockey programs, because on a whole, those issues aren't rampant at schools that are good at hockey.
There was a post from a Lakeville South follower thinking about how their hockey program would be had many not left and attended St Thomas. I can count on one hand the number of comments blaming that program for the kids leaving, instead of pointing fingers at the school they left to.

The majority of people on this board, and in general in state, are from public schools. Most are very ignorant about private schools, how they operate and how people get there and make claims as if they know everything. Many also seem to possibly be ignorant about the state of public schools in general.

Oh well, life goes on. Hopefully any changes made are good for the overall state of hockey.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:47 pm

Yes let us applaud rainier. A person of true moral fortitude. All he cares about is the small town boys. The ones who have their hearts broken each year by true evil immoral private schools who just want trophies and fame :lol: :lol:
Wow. Rainier how truely insperational, spoken like someone who really would like to see Hermantown not have to play STA, Breck, DM, or Lourdes :wink: they could win the A titile every year.

No just kidding, I am sure you are a real defender of the masses I am glad you have the backs of the boys in the small towns who just want a fair chance against the privates.

You or I have no clue why the people running the private school programs chose to stay down or move up. I suppose some think that it gives them credibility (HF) others it is part of their indentity (HM) AHA. Other won and figured they should try for higher goals, BSM. I suppose some may chose to stay down for a want to minimize the importance of the Athlete in Student Athlete.

They are students first, and who cares if they play A, it is just JV hockey anyway right?

How' my grammer?

Just Checking

Your grammar is fine, but your spelling needs some work. (lol)

What I find most surprising is the lack of Breck and STA fans calling for their teams to opt up. They each have a couple A titles and their programs are firmly established as high quality; time to opt up. Don't they want to beat the best?

I'd be fine watching Hermantown win a bunch of titles, they are a true Class A team and I have nothing but respect for their program.


thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:49 pm

rainier wrote:It's not a "sense" of moral superiority, it is actual moral superiority, and your statement is a great example of why this is true. Why don't you petition to get your HS team in the Bantam tourney too, there would be a couple more trophies for you. All that matters is winning, right?
Haha oh my you really said it better than I ever could. If you haven't already you should step off the pulpit and realize that your holier than thou attitude is actually laughably childish arrogance.

Because your uber-education probably prevents you from understanding my backwater, public school English, I will make this as simple as possible:
1. STA draws from an AA-sized talent pool, thus they should be in AA.
2. Other metro privates have opted up to AA; what's STA's excuse?
If that's your feeling I respect that and you're entitled to your opinion. If you have a hundred losers you'll have 100 reasons why they didn't win so I guess I gotta take your comment with a grain of salt. Now if you're done complaining and want to actually have something come of this do the mature thing and write the MSHSL about it.
Last edited by thestickler07 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:55 pm

rainier wrote:I'd be fine watching Hermantown win a bunch of titles, they are a true C̶l̶a̶s̶s̶ ̶A̶ public team and I have nothing but respect for their program.
Fixed it for you.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:07 pm

"They draw from an "AA sized" talent pool by virtue of playing in the metro. Nothing short of physically relocating the campus is going to change this, so I don't see what you're getting at. Plenty of schools have this same "unfair" advantage, and technically every metro area school has open enrollment so it doesn't really matter."

So you admit they draw from an AA-sized talent pool. How in the world can anyone say they belong in A?

"At this point in my post I'm discussing things in the future sense, as in what could likely happen one day in the future if privates are kicked out of competition."

This is the real straw man argument. This doesn't exist nor is there any evidence it ever will. I am arguing about what is currently happening in reality.

"If you have a problem with how they do things bring up your issues to the MSHSL."

Agreed, I will write a letter to the MSHSL. But I imagine the MSHSL figured schools would not abuse the system when they created the two class system.

"Respect the game and respect others, something we can both agree on thankfully. So I take it this is a response in support of my desire for a meaningful effort to cease degrading and bigoted chants from other fan bases? Because you're unsurprisingly reluctance to not mention any specifics from my other post in this part of your response in particular leaves a lot of ambiguity on where you stand."

I agree, degrading chants have no place in HS sports. Private school kids do not deserve to be made fun of any more than public school kids do.

"Unlike a lot of you, I've actually taken pen to paper and finger to keys in multiple messages to them about it. I don't like that STA plays below the "top class" in anything."

I applaud you for pressuring STA to move up, it is the right thing to do and I respect you for doing so. I am just surprised there aren't more alumni such as yourself calling for the same. If Hibbing was a top 3 Class A team for 6-7 years and had a couple A titles, I would be screaming for them to opt up. (They did opt up 96-01, when they had top end AA teams.)

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:36 pm

rainier wrote:"They draw from an "AA sized" talent pool by virtue of playing in the metro. Nothing short of physically relocating the campus is going to change this, so I don't see what you're getting at. Plenty of schools have this same "unfair" advantage, and technically every metro area school has open enrollment so it doesn't really matter."

So you admit they draw from an AA-sized talent pool. How in the world can anyone say they belong in A?
Hermantown is the only school in the state I know of that year in, year out doesn't accept open enrolled students. They operate at capacity and students have to live in the attendance zone to attend. This is not true for most schools in the state. Which, to me, is a great thing.

But at the end of the day, the MSHSL uses the # of students in attendance at your school, not the # in the area they draw from.

To answer your question directly: You should contact the MSHSL and ask "them."

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:38 pm

rainier wrote:So you admit they draw from an AA-sized talent pool. How in the world can anyone say they belong in A?
Very non-sequitur. So your reasoning for STA having to move up isn't that they are private as much as the fact that they could get their students from all over the metro? I guess I find that to be disingenuous or weak reasoning at best considering open enrollment in public schools exist.

This is the real straw man argument. This doesn't exist nor is there any evidence it ever will. I am arguing about what is currently happening in reality.
Take a look at prep school hockey on the East coast and tell me that we aren't headed that way if you kick the privates out. Public school hockey on the east coast in general is weak as the best prospects routinely play AAA or other advanced levels. By thinning out HS hockey through kicking out privates you are exacerbating the problem further. You can bury your head in the sand on the issue but its a scary future that I don't think anyone on this board wants to happen. I love the passion and pageantry of high school hockey and I wouldn't trade a sterile all-star game of boarding students for the state tournament.
Agreed, I will write a letter to the MSHSL. But I imagine the MSHSL figured schools would not abuse the system when they created the two class system.
Abuse? Abuse seems to imply breaking rules, because otherwise it would just be called getting beat fair and square right? "The path to hell is paved with good intentions", funny concept that just keeps ringing true the more you hear it. What conditions existed back when the MSHSL made this change that don't exist now? None. So its a matter of the MSHSL not thinking something through (sadly too commonplace) as opposed to a small collection of supervillians plotting world domination.

I agree, degrading chants have no place in HS sports. Private school kids do not deserve to be made fun of any more than public school kids do.
On the contrary, I don't have an issue with knocking privates, the kids that go there more or less had a choice to attend. I'm making reference to an unsavory undertone that many schools just happen to have when they play a certain single sex school in particular. You brush it off when its 15-17 year olds are saying things that are ignorant because what should you expect? But when you have grown women/men chanting "you play ass-darts" at kids playing youth hockey you really shake your head and can lose respect for a whole community.


I applaud you for pressuring STA to move up, it is the right thing to do and I respect you for doing so. I am just surprised there aren't more alumni such as yourself calling for the same. If Hibbing was a top 3 Class A team for 6-7 years and had a couple A titles, I would be screaming for them to opt up. (They did opt up 96-01, when they had top end AA teams.)
I think you'd be surprised by the number of alumni who want STA to move up. The administration has stonewalled and doesn't seem interested in changing their minds unfortunately, and ultimately I don't have the final say. Just because we as an alumni base aren't obnoxious about our desires doesn't mean we aren't being vocal.

Hscout000
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Post by Hscout000 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:43 pm

I think 1 class is the answer. As for the tournament why not seed everyone and the last team standing is the champion. Can bring the final 8 teams to the Xcel and still have the Tourney. Gives all the top 8 teams the chance to make it.

Northhcky
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Post by Northhcky » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:44 pm

Let's not be coy about the issue, people don't like STA because they are private and they win. Period. There are enough private school haters in the state to begin with; add in enough sore losers and you got a sizable vocal contingent of anti-private lemmings to fan the flames.

Funny i never see a post complaining about the privates like HM, BSM, Holy Family etc that play up where they should so it must not be private school haters and sore losers like you say. Must be about a "select" team that draws the best players from a large area and chooses to play against the small public schools to win that ppl don't think is right .

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