Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

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Hoc2x21
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:36 am

Re: its time to force the privates to AA

Post by Hoc2x21 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:45 am

gardetto wrote:
hocnut wrote:The ability to do what?? I know that Warroad recruits hockey players and they aren't a private school but there are rules that have to be followed for them to do this. Do the privates have to follow the same rules in this regard, just an example i'm not callking anyone out here but the Jungles kid that plays for BSM he played his youth hockey for Edina. Did his parents have to move for him to play at BSM?
Read the MSHL rule book, If he or she went to BSM in 9th grade they can play. if the parents moved in 10th grade he can play, Yes privates follow the same rules, Warroad does also follow the rules. Think about it, you would have to move there or drive a long ways for hockey, AND if a HIGH school does not offer a sport YES you can play for whatever team that is close to your school just like they are doing up north now so they can field a team
However the schools involved have to work with the MSHL on these situations.

Hocnut,
Both schools have to agree to a cooperative agreement for your kid to play that sport there. if they don't agree to a co op your kid has to attend that school to play that sport there. My son enrolled his freshman year at the school so he could play hockey as an agreement wasn't reached between the two schools.
i contacted the MSHSL office 2 years prior to my son enrolling at the school and was told the only option was enrolling in the school if a co op agreement could not be made.
50 miles round trip daily to attend school and play high school hockey and its no STA or Hermantown. Just an ordinary Northern Small class A school with Championship Dreams.

eastsideguy
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:34 am

Re: Sta

Post by eastsideguy » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:45 am

blueblood wrote:Maybe they should have their victory parade in downtown Lakeville
or minnetonka, lets give them a chance to experience a celebration!

MNHockeyFan
Posts: 6959
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm

Post by MNHockeyFan » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Adding fuel to the fire:

Getting iced out: How private schools have taken over MN boys high school hockey

http://www.minnpost.com/community-voice ... -school-ho

IMO the author cherry-picks his stats to make his case...if he was honest the title of the article would be "How private schools have taken over MN boys high school hockey in Class A".

PuckRanger
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:15 am
Location: Iron Range
Contact:

Post by PuckRanger » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:26 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:Adding fuel to the fire:

Getting iced out: How private schools have taken over MN boys high school hockey

http://www.minnpost.com/community-voice ... -school-ho

IMO the author cherry-picks his stats to make his case...if he was honest the title of the article would be "How private schools have taken over MN boys high school hockey in Class A".
I think that was obviously implied after I read it. Funny how some people try to spin everything.

PuckU126
Posts: 3769
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:52 pm
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Post by PuckU126 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:33 am

PuckRanger wrote:I think that was obviously implied after I read it. Funny how some people try to spin everything.
No kidding.

8)
The Puck
LGW

blacklung
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Post by blacklung » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:25 am

Check out the talent from the top AAA program in the state that played in the Tourney this year.

# of BLADES ON TEAM
EDINA - 11
STA - 9
Benilde - 9
HM - 7
MG - 6
...

Nice Single A talent pool that STA pulls from.
Last year they had 15.


2012 MN State Hockey Tournament

59 players in the 2012 mn State high school hockey tournament have played with the MN blades organization!!!
Congratulations to the 59 players, who have played with the MN Blades organization, who participated in the 2012 Boys' High School Hockey Tournament.....GREAT JOB!


Lakeville South
John Wiitala

Hill Murray
Sam Becker
Ryan Black
John Dugas
Andy Faust
Jake Guentzel
Blake Heinrich
Zach LaValle

Benilde
Grant Besse
Tyler Ellegard
Patrick Graham
Christian Horn
Jake Horton
Anders Jecha
Jonah Johnson
Dan Labosky
T.J. Moore

Edina
Willie Benjamin
Bo Brauer
Miguel Fidler
Connor Hurley
Andy Jordahl
Louie Nanne
Tyler Nanne
Dylan Malmquist
Cullen Munson
Parker Reno
Jack Walker

Eagan
Derick Kuchera
Nick Kuchera
Will Merchant
Michael Zajac

Maple Grove
Nate Erickson
Jordan Freberg
Jordan Gross
Alex Mason
Tony Paulson
Shane Wolden

Duluth East
Steven Holappa
Meirs Moore

Breck
Otto Haeg
Keegan Iverson
Michael Orke
Derek Wiitala

St. Thomas
Andrew Commers
Alex Johnson
Pat McFadden
Tom Novak
Matt Perry
Grant Sattler
Eric Schurhamer
Zach Weir
David Zevnik

Thief River Falls
Chris Forney

Hermantown
Brian LeBlanc
Jake Zeleznikar

Little Falls
Matt Stumpf

Rochester Lourdes
Alex Funk
Justin Dewitz

eastsideguy
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:34 am

Post by eastsideguy » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:34 pm

blacklung wrote:Check out the talent from the top AAA program in the state that played in the Tourney this year.

# of BLADES ON TEAM
EDINA - 11
STA - 9
Benilde - 9
HM - 7
MG - 6
...

Nice Single A talent pool that STA pulls from.
Last year they had 15.


2012 MN State Hockey Tournament

59 players in the 2012 mn State high school hockey tournament have played with the MN blades organization!!!
Congratulations to the 59 players, who have played with the MN Blades organization, who participated in the 2012 Boys' High School Hockey Tournament.....GREAT JOB!


Lakeville South
John Wiitala

Hill Murray
Sam Becker
Ryan Black
John Dugas
Andy Faust
Jake Guentzel
Blake Heinrich
Zach LaValle

Benilde
Grant Besse
Tyler Ellegard
Patrick Graham
Christian Horn
Jake Horton
Anders Jecha
Jonah Johnson
Dan Labosky
T.J. Moore

Edina
Willie Benjamin
Bo Brauer
Miguel Fidler
Connor Hurley
Andy Jordahl
Louie Nanne
Tyler Nanne
Dylan Malmquist
Cullen Munson
Parker Reno
Jack Walker

Eagan
Derick Kuchera
Nick Kuchera
Will Merchant
Michael Zajac

Maple Grove
Nate Erickson
Jordan Freberg
Jordan Gross
Alex Mason
Tony Paulson
Shane Wolden

Duluth East
Steven Holappa
Meirs Moore

Breck
Otto Haeg
Keegan Iverson
Michael Orke
Derek Wiitala

St. Thomas
Andrew Commers
Alex Johnson
Pat McFadden
Tom Novak
Matt Perry
Grant Sattler
Eric Schurhamer
Zach Weir
David Zevnik

Thief River Falls
Chris Forney

Hermantown
Brian LeBlanc
Jake Zeleznikar

Little Falls
Matt Stumpf

Rochester Lourdes
Alex Funk
Justin Dewitz[/q

If you look at the Blades original 93,94,95, rosters i dont think you will find one STA player on it, maybe Perry. Lot of these guys got asked to play in weekend tourneys and now all of the sudden they are blades. My bad, it reads have played at one time with Blades, the blades are accurate on this

gardetto
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:09 pm

Post by gardetto » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:44 pm

eastsideguy wrote:
blacklung wrote:Check out the talent from the top AAA program in the state that played in the Tourney this year.

# of BLADES ON TEAM
EDINA - 11
STA - 9
Benilde - 9
HM - 7
MG - 6
...

Nice Single A talent pool that STA pulls from.
Last year they had 15.


2012 MN State Hockey Tournament

59 players in the 2012 mn State high school hockey tournament have played with the MN blades organization!!!
Congratulations to the 59 players, who have played with the MN Blades organization, who participated in the 2012 Boys' High School Hockey Tournament.....GREAT JOB!


Lakeville South
John Wiitala

Hill Murray
Sam Becker
Ryan Black
John Dugas
Andy Faust
Jake Guentzel
Blake Heinrich
Zach LaValle

Benilde
Grant Besse
Tyler Ellegard
Patrick Graham
Christian Horn
Jake Horton
Anders Jecha
Jonah Johnson
Dan Labosky
T.J. Moore

Edina
Willie Benjamin
Bo Brauer
Miguel Fidler
Connor Hurley
Andy Jordahl
Louie Nanne
Tyler Nanne
Dylan Malmquist
Cullen Munson
Parker Reno
Jack Walker

Eagan
Derick Kuchera
Nick Kuchera
Will Merchant
Michael Zajac

Maple Grove
Nate Erickson
Jordan Freberg
Jordan Gross
Alex Mason
Tony Paulson
Shane Wolden

Duluth East
Steven Holappa
Meirs Moore

Breck
Otto Haeg
Keegan Iverson
Michael Orke
Derek Wiitala

St. Thomas
Andrew Commers
Alex Johnson
Pat McFadden
Tom Novak
Matt Perry
Grant Sattler
Eric Schurhamer
Zach Weir
David Zevnik

Thief River Falls
Chris Forney

Hermantown
Brian LeBlanc
Jake Zeleznikar

Little Falls
Matt Stumpf

Rochester Lourdes
Alex Funk
Justin Dewitz[/q

If you look at the Blades original 93,94,95, rosters i dont think you will find one STA player on it, maybe Perry. Lot of these guys got asked to play in weekend tourneys and now all of the sudden they are blades. My bad, it reads have played at one time with Blades, the blades are accurate on this
You are correct they played in a tournament or 2 with them but did not go through the program.

hockey59
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 11:01 am

Post by hockey59 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:34 pm

And I thought I was hard on STA for playing Class A. :lol: ..this is most of what Chris Dilks on WCHBlog had to say... :lol:

by WCHBlog on Mar 12, 2012 1:59 PM PDT


The Minnesota high school hockey tournament was this past weekend. Benilde-St. Margaret's won the Class AA championship, Hermantown won the Class A public school championship, and St. Thomas Academy won the No Class championship. Here's a few notes and I thoughts I had from the weekend of hockey.

-I love watching Minnesota high school hockey, but there's always some seriously mixed emotions watching the tournament. All you need to know about the people running the tournament in the MSHSL is that they allowed St. Thomas Academy to celebrate on the ice on Saturday and wouldn't allow Jack Jablonski to celebrate with his team on the ice.

By now, almost the entire hockey world knows Jack Jablonski's story and what he's gone through these past three months. I was there at the section championship when he came onto the ice and accepted his team's trophy, and it was an incredibly moving moment. Saturday night, I was waiting for the same thing, but it never happened. Why? Because the MSHSL has RULES that are SERIOUS BUSINESS that kept Jablonski from joining his teammates on the ice. Instead, Benilde had to wait until they got back to the lockerroom to take their team photo with the trophy and celebrate as a team. It's unbelievable that the people involved with the MSHSL would have so little humanity and basic common sense, or would believe that the sanctity of their rulebook would outweigh the significance of what was happening at that moment.

The high school tournament is a fantastic tournament because of the kids involved, and in spite of the people that run it. I recommend the MSHSL check out what happened to the tournament at the XCel Center this coming weekend, which has operated under the same principle for many years.

The less I say about St. Thomas Academy the better. It's a joke that they play in Class A, and an even bigger joke that one of their coaches tried to say his team didn't have enough talent to play AA after the game. That's now their fourth state championship since 2006, and honestly, with the talent they've had, they would have won more if they weren't such a horribly coached team. The talent that goes into that program is far greater than the talent that comes out of it. Their excuse for not choosing to play up is that they don't want to be known as a hockey school. Congrats. That's the last thing I think of when it comes to that school.

blacklung
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Post by blacklung » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:50 pm

This is what he said before the tourney.

Why I Hate the Class A Tournament
by WCHBlog on Mar 7, 2012 7:06 AM PST

Minnesota's Class A state hockey tournament starts this morning. It was a controversial move when the state went to the two-tiered tournament system, but ultimately, it was a noble goal. Allow the state's smaller towns and programs, many of which had a great hockey heritage, the ability to compete and still have hopes of making it to the state tournament, even if they couldn't compete with the more populous and wealthy areas of the state. But in recent years, and this year is no exception, the tournament has simply become a few hours of free advertising for a few private schools in some of the state's largest cities.

There are sixteen cities in the state of Minnesota with populations over 50,000 people. Eleven of them are suburbs of the two largest cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, and the other three are Rochester, Duluth, and St. Cloud. Playing the small school Class A tournament this year is the Breck School, a school made up entirely of students from the Minneapolis suburbs, St. Thomas, a school made up entirely of students from the St. Paul suburbs, Rochester Lourdes, and Duluth Marshall. Only St. Cloud Cathedral kept it from being a clean sweep for the state's five largest metro areas.

The dominance of the tournament by those teams robs the tournament of what should make it so special. I had the opportunity to cover the 2007 Class A tournament won by Hermantown, the last time a public school won the Class A tournament, and one of only three wins by a public school since the turn of the century. In the aftermath of that victory, Joe Krause, now playing for Nebraska-Omaha, dedicated the victory to all the dads that spent countless hours working on the community ice rink that they all grew up playing on. I doubt you'd ever hear the kids from St. Thomas Academy say the same thing. They all come from different cities like Lakeville and Rosemount, and others which are all big enough that their city can put up multiple public rinks. In 2006, when Thief River Falls made the tournament for the first time since the 1940's, their entire town shut down to make the trip to St. Paul. To find mention of the tournament on the Rochester Post-Bulletin's website, you have to go to their (albeit excellent) hockey blog.

Losing those teams may hurt the overall quality of play in the tournament, but it would certainly make the tournament more special. When Little Falls, a town of just over 8000 people, put together teams with multiple future Division I players, that was something pretty special. Their reward was to get pounded by the likes of St. Thomas Academy and Duluth Marshall in the tournament. The Class A tournament should be a showcase for towns in Minnesota with one stoplight, not the schools like Breck that are literally one stoplight from the city limits of one of the 50 largest cities in the country.

HShockeywatcher
Posts: 6848
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm

Post by HShockeywatcher » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:40 am

It's been a week or so since I've been on here and it surprises me there's only one more page of whining, thought it'd be much more.
What strikes me as so odd about this whole topic is that you have "bashers" (for lack of a better term) who started this thread and have been going on and on putting down teenagers and a school. What has this team/school/fans been doing this whole time? Playing hockey, educating students and answering questions. That's it. And somehow it is "classless" to do that, but pointing fingers and talking down about others isn't? #-o
We have teenagers that go out and play 6 post season games because they love hockey and regardless of what school they are from, they won the JV trophy. In 2007, Hermantown did too, it wasn't any different.


The statement I've made multiple times that is usually agreed with and rarely refuted is that people just want something to complain about. What I'd like to know is: long term, [with the exception of a one class system that won't realistically happen] what solution are you really looking for?

a. One Class
It won't happen, but let's at least talk about it. I don't understand what would be so much better than what we have now. Half as many state games, less teams on display and even less small town feel than we have now.

b. Two Classes, no opting up
I've suggested this and have multiple people on both sides of the discussion. I don't see the down side of it, but apparently in a sport that enrollment admittedly has little to do with talent, the bigger enrollment class is "better" despite many years the big-enrollment finalists being small enrollment schools.

c. Two classes, no opting up, all privates AA
Could Roseau and Cloquet handle playing for the JV tournament? I don't know what would end up happening with hockey in places like Minnehaha/Legacy Christian. It'd be interesting to see.

d. Two classes, opting up, all privates AA
If all private schools were in AA next year, who would be next? I don't pretend to be in any administrations, but I would guess more than zero public school teams would also opt up. Is this what you want?

e. Two classes, bottom 64 in A, co-ops in A, privates in AA
What we have now with a "small town" feel and a 7A vs 8A championship every year.

f. Three class, A, AA, PS
What the article posted suggested.


The article was right; in a sport where money is a huge factor, private schools [and affluent communities] do well. Does that really surprise anyone? It is affluent areas that do well. Would it surprise anyone to learn that it is mostly big suburbs who dominate alpine skiing, golf, swimming, lacrosse, etc? I doubt it.

Will it stop if we point fingers on a message board? I highly doubt it.
In my opinion, the answer is trying to get numbers up in communities around the state. Starting programs that can get kids into arenas at a young age for a cheaper cost is a great start. Wouldn't it be great if 15 years from now we have 3 great tournaments at the X because we had 200+ high school programs.

The MSHSL seems to be doing in hockey similar to what the NCAA is doing with D1 FBS football. Every poll I've seen show over 90% of people want a different post season in football, yet they do nothing. Same with HS hockey; there is issue on both sides.

Would they make a rule singling out two/three schools? No, but if it was determined to be the intended result, why not call those two or three schools with a statement something like this:
"If you and the other one/two schools getting this letter don't opt up for next year, all private schools will be required to opt up. Ball's in your court."
It would be last on my list of things to do, but it is an entirely possible thing.

Ultimately, I'm just asking what end result people want. It still seems to me like people just want to complain. I'd bet a good deal that if all private schools were in AA and doing well, people would still complain instead of discussing ways to actually fix the problem. Any private schools supporter who wishes the demise of public schools is quite ignorant. We all want public schools doing well with private schools as an alternative for those who'd like to use them.

I understand that "hockey's different" (as every sport is unique from every other), but were we to really have a state tournament that drew fractions of what the Class A tournament does now just so small schools could live this dream seems odd (Class A set attendance records with mostly private schools this year; some people are watching).
Around the country, state tournaments are for the best teams. With the exception many years of the biggest/smallest classes in football, most sports' smallest champion could play with and sometimes beat the biggest champion. I don't pretend to understand the mentality of calling for a worse tournament (quality of play wise) instead of two great ones.


So, I ask:
Not next year, not three years from now, but "10 years from now, how would you envision the perfect MN HS hockey system?"
Last edited by HShockeywatcher on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MHGr8ness
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by MHGr8ness » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:42 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's been a week or so since I've been on here and it surprises me there's only one more page of whining, thought it'd be much more.
What strikes me as so odd about this whole topic is that you have "bashers" (for lack of a better term) who started this thread and have been going on and on putting down teenagers and a school. What has this team/school/fans been doing this whole time? Playing hockey, educating students and answering questions. That's it. And somehow it is "classless" to do that, but pointing fingers and talking down about others isn't? #-o
We have teenagers that go out and play 6 post season games because they love hockey and regardless of what school they are from, they won the JV trophy. In 2007, Hermantown did too, it wasn't any different.


The statement I've made multiple times that is usually agreed with and rarely refuted is that people just want something to complain about. What I'd like to know is: long term, [with the exception of a one class system that won't realistically happen] what solution are you really looking for?

a. One Class
It won't happen, but let's at least talk about it. I don't understand what would be so much better than what we have now. Half as many state games, less teams on display and even less small town feel than we have now.

b. Two Classes, no opting up
I've suggested this and have multiple people on both sides of the discussion. I don't see the down side of it, but apparently in a sport that enrollment admittedly has little to do with talent, the bigger enrollment class is "better" despite many years the big-enrollment finalists being small enrollment schools.

c. Two classes, opting up, all privates AA
If all private schools were in AA next year, who would be next? I don't pretend to be in any administrations, but I would guess more than zero public school teams would also opt up. Is this what you want?

d. Two classes, bottom 64 in A, co-ops in A, privates in AA
What we have now with a "small town" feel and a 7A vs 8A championship every year.

e. Three class, A, AA, PS
What the article posted suggested.


The article was right; in a sport where money is a huge factor, private schools [and affluent communities] do well. Does that really surprise anyone? It is affluent areas that do well. Would it surprise anyone to learn that it is mostly big suburbs who dominate alpine skiing, golf, swimming, lacrosse, etc? I doubt it.

Will it stop if we point fingers on a message board? I highly doubt it.
In my opinion, the answer is trying to get numbers up in communities around the state. Starting programs that can get kids into arenas at a young age for a cheaper cost is a great start. Wouldn't it be great if 15 years from now we have 3 great tournaments at the X because we had 200+ high school programs.

The MSHSL seems to be doing in hockey similar to what the NCAA is doing with D1 FBS football. Every poll I've seen show over 90% of people want a different post season in football, yet they do nothing. Same with HS hockey; there is issue on both sides.

Would they make a rule singling out two/three schools? No, but if it was determined to be the intended result, why not call those two or three schools with a statement something like this:
"If you and the other one/two schools getting this letter don't opt up for next year, all private schools will be required to opt up. Ball's in your court."
It would be last on my list of things to do, but it is an entirely possible thing.

Ultimately, I'm just asking what end result people want. It still seems to me like people just want to complain. I'd bet a good deal that if all private schools were in AA and doing well, people would still complain instead of discussing ways to actually fix the problem. Any private schools supporter who wishes the demise of public schools is quite ignorant. We all want public schools doing well with private schools as an alternative for those who'd like to use them.

I understand that "hockey's different" (as every sport is unique from every other), but were we to really have a state tournament that drew fractions of what the Class A tournament does now just so small schools could live this dream seems odd (Class A set attendance records with mostly private schools this year; some people are watching).
Around the country, state tournaments are for the best teams. With the exception many years of the biggest/smallest classes in football, most sports' smallest champion could play with and sometimes beat the biggest champion. I don't pretend to understand the mentality of calling for a worse tournament (quality of play wise) instead of two great ones.


So, I ask:
Not next year, not three years from now, but "10 years from now, how would you envision the perfect MN HS hockey system?"
C with no opt-ups.

slacsap
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:30 am

Post by slacsap » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:55 pm

I can kind of understand the private school debate, but I have no clue why anyone would be opposed to a Class A school opting to play up. If schools like Grand Rapids. Benilde, Hill and Roseau are good enough to play at a AA level, and they obviously are, why should they not be allowed to do so?

HShockeywatcher
Posts: 6848
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm

Post by HShockeywatcher » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:30 pm

slacsap wrote:I can kind of understand the private school debate, but I have no clue why anyone would be opposed to a Class A school opting to play up. If schools like Grand Rapids. Benilde, Hill and Roseau are good enough to play at a AA level, and they obviously are, why should they not be allowed to do so?
Because it's a class system, not a tier system.
Class systems are like divisions in college sports, they are determined based on some arbitrary method that [in theory] has little baring ability. In high school sports, that is determined based on enrollment of the school. Many states around the nation don't allow schools to opt "up", as MN does, as that doesn't make sense in a class system.

College divisions are based on [among other things] the types of scholarships the school is able to offer athletes. High School sports are based on enrollment. Many class systems around the country/world are based on age.

Tier systems, on the other hand, are based on ability. Tennis and soccer are the biggest of these around the world.
In tennis you have a rating that, plus or minus a single rating, is pretty universal world wide. As you improve, you move up. Or get worse and go down.
Soccer leagues have tiers where the best teams move up one, sometimes more, divisions based on ability.

The MSHSL has a class system where it is optional to play with the bigger teams. While 99% admit that "hockey's different" and enrollment is less of a factor in determining ability than most other sports, there is still a mentality that bigger is better. Many have the opinion that eliminating this option would level the playing field giving two good classes, as many years the best teams overall would be classified in the smaller class had they not opted up.

Despite being painful, I left my opinion out :mrgreen: :-$

Goldy23
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:11 pm

Post by Goldy23 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:09 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's been a week or so since I've been on here and it surprises me there's only one more page of whining, thought it'd be much more.
What strikes me as so odd about this whole topic is that you have "bashers" (for lack of a better term) who started this thread and have been going on and on putting down teenagers and a school. What has this team/school/fans been doing this whole time? Playing hockey, educating students and answering questions. That's it. And somehow it is "classless" to do that, but pointing fingers and talking down about others isn't? #-o
We have teenagers that go out and play 6 post season games because they love hockey and regardless of what school they are from, they won the JV trophy. In 2007, Hermantown did too, it wasn't any different.


The statement I've made multiple times that is usually agreed with and rarely refuted is that people just want something to complain about. What I'd like to know is: long term, [with the exception of a one class system that won't realistically happen] what solution are you really looking for?

a. One Class
It won't happen, but let's at least talk about it. I don't understand what would be so much better than what we have now. Half as many state games, less teams on display and even less small town feel than we have now.

b. Two Classes, no opting up
I've suggested this and have multiple people on both sides of the discussion. I don't see the down side of it, but apparently in a sport that enrollment admittedly has little to do with talent, the bigger enrollment class is "better" despite many years the big-enrollment finalists being small enrollment schools.

c. Two classes, no opting up, all privates AA
Could Roseau and Cloquet handle playing for the JV tournament? I don't know what would end up happening with hockey in places like Minnehaha/Legacy Christian. It'd be interesting to see.

d. Two classes, opting up, all privates AA
If all private schools were in AA next year, who would be next? I don't pretend to be in any administrations, but I would guess more than zero public school teams would also opt up. Is this what you want?

e. Two classes, bottom 64 in A, co-ops in A, privates in AA
What we have now with a "small town" feel and a 7A vs 8A championship every year.

f. Three class, A, AA, PS
What the article posted suggested.


The article was right; in a sport where money is a huge factor, private schools [and affluent communities] do well. Does that really surprise anyone? It is affluent areas that do well. Would it surprise anyone to learn that it is mostly big suburbs who dominate alpine skiing, golf, swimming, lacrosse, etc? I doubt it.

Will it stop if we point fingers on a message board? I highly doubt it.
In my opinion, the answer is trying to get numbers up in communities around the state. Starting programs that can get kids into arenas at a young age for a cheaper cost is a great start. Wouldn't it be great if 15 years from now we have 3 great tournaments at the X because we had 200+ high school programs.

The MSHSL seems to be doing in hockey similar to what the NCAA is doing with D1 FBS football. Every poll I've seen show over 90% of people want a different post season in football, yet they do nothing. Same with HS hockey; there is issue on both sides.

Would they make a rule singling out two/three schools? No, but if it was determined to be the intended result, why not call those two or three schools with a statement something like this:
"If you and the other one/two schools getting this letter don't opt up for next year, all private schools will be required to opt up. Ball's in your court."
It would be last on my list of things to do, but it is an entirely possible thing.

Ultimately, I'm just asking what end result people want. It still seems to me like people just want to complain. I'd bet a good deal that if all private schools were in AA and doing well, people would still complain instead of discussing ways to actually fix the problem. Any private schools supporter who wishes the demise of public schools is quite ignorant. We all want public schools doing well with private schools as an alternative for those who'd like to use them.

I understand that "hockey's different" (as every sport is unique from every other), but were we to really have a state tournament that drew fractions of what the Class A tournament does now just so small schools could live this dream seems odd (Class A set attendance records with mostly private schools this year; some people are watching).
Around the country, state tournaments are for the best teams. With the exception many years of the biggest/smallest classes in football, most sports' smallest champion could play with and sometimes beat the biggest champion. I don't pretend to understand the mentality of calling for a worse tournament (quality of play wise) instead of two great ones.


So, I ask:
Not next year, not three years from now, but "10 years from now, how would you envision the perfect MN HS hockey system?"
First off, the reason it is only at 21 pages is BECAUSE YOU HAVEN"T BEEN ON TO STIR THE POT FOR A WEEK!

The best option is to play a ONE CLASS 16 team tourney. Same number of teams playing at the big show with every team in the state having fair chance at getting to the tourney through sixteen section tournaments.

Short of this, the right thing to do and the best answer to satisfy the masses is for the STA team to simply man up and move up. 80% of the problem is that STA refuses to move up (it doesn't help that your coach was stupid enough to open his mouth on the subject at the press conference) , 10% of the problem is with Breck not moving up (although they appear to be on a significant down hill talent slide after this year) and 10% with Lourdes, DM, Blake and Totino combined.

slacsap
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:30 am

Post by slacsap » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:56 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:
slacsap wrote:I can kind of understand the private school debate, but I have no clue why anyone would be opposed to a Class A school opting to play up. If schools like Grand Rapids. Benilde, Hill and Roseau are good enough to play at a AA level, and they obviously are, why should they not be allowed to do so?
Because it's a class system, not a tier system.
Class systems are like divisions in college sports, they are determined based on some arbitrary method that [in theory] has little baring ability. In high school sports, that is determined based on enrollment of the school. Many states around the nation don't allow schools to opt "up", as MN does, as that doesn't make sense in a class system.

College divisions are based on [among other things] the types of scholarships the school is able to offer athletes. High School sports are based on enrollment. Many class systems around the country/world are based on age.

Tier systems, on the other hand, are based on ability. Tennis and soccer are the biggest of these around the world.
In tennis you have a rating that, plus or minus a single rating, is pretty universal world wide. As you improve, you move up. Or get worse and go down.
Soccer leagues have tiers where the best teams move up one, sometimes more, divisions based on ability.

The MSHSL has a class system where it is optional to play with the bigger teams. While 99% admit that "hockey's different" and enrollment is less of a factor in determining ability than most other sports, there is still a mentality that bigger is better. Many have the opinion that eliminating this option would level the playing field giving two good classes, as many years the best teams overall would be classified in the smaller class had they not opted up.

Despite being painful, I left my opinion out :mrgreen: :-$
Even in a "class" system, a team can choose to play up. A soccer team made up of 10 year olds can choose to play as an under 12 team if they wish. A football team at a college that is Division II, or even Division III, can choose to compete in Division I. Why should high school hockey not give teams the same option?

RangeHockeyFan1817
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: Duluth, MN

Post by RangeHockeyFan1817 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:06 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's been a week or so since I've been on here and it surprises me there's only one more page of whining, thought it'd be much more.
What strikes me as so odd about this whole topic is that you have "bashers" (for lack of a better term) who started this thread and have been going on and on putting down teenagers and a school. What has this team/school/fans been doing this whole time? Playing hockey, educating students and answering questions. That's it. And somehow it is "classless" to do that, but pointing fingers and talking down about others isn't? #-o
We have teenagers that go out and play 6 post season games because they love hockey and regardless of what school they are from, they won the JV trophy. In 2007, Hermantown did too, it wasn't any different.


1. I have not heard a single person bash any players for the school's decision to stay in A. A few posters have commented on their behavior on the ice, but that is not what we're talking about.
2. If after 21 pages you don't know what people are talking about when they say st. thomas is classless then I don't know what to tell ya. It is quite obvious to nearly every one else.
3. This is the part your REALLY not getting, it was NOT THE SAME when Hermantown won in 2007, Hermantown is a small community school who this single A tourny was made for, not your metro all stars team. I mean do you really not get it? This is the type of team we WANT to see win it and I wouldn't care if they never opt up, if they do great, but if not they are the ones who are where they are supposed to be.



The statement I've made multiple times that is usually agreed with and rarely refuted is that people just want something to complain about. What I'd like to know is: long term, [with the exception of a one class system that won't realistically happen] what solution are you really looking for?

a. One Class
It won't happen, but let's at least talk about it. I don't understand what would be so much better than what we have now. Half as many state games, less teams on display and even less small town feel than we have now.

b. Two Classes, no opting up
I've suggested this and have multiple people on both sides of the discussion. I don't see the down side of it, but apparently in a sport that enrollment admittedly has little to do with talent, the bigger enrollment class is "better" despite many years the big-enrollment finalists being small enrollment schools.

c. Two classes, no opting up, all privates AA
Could Roseau and Cloquet handle playing for the JV tournament? I don't know what would end up happening with hockey in places like Minnehaha/Legacy Christian. It'd be interesting to see.

d. Two classes, opting up, all privates AA
If all private schools were in AA next year, who would be next? I don't pretend to be in any administrations, but I would guess more than zero public school teams would also opt up. Is this what you want?


e. Two classes, bottom 64 in A, co-ops in A, privates in AA
What we have now with a "small town" feel and a 7A vs 8A championship every year.

I can tell you with certainty it wouldn't be a 7A vs 8A championship every year. You think Hermantown wouldn't consistantly be there or another 5A representative?

f. Three class, A, AA, PS
What the article posted suggested.


The article was right; in a sport where money is a huge factor, private schools [and affluent communities] do well. Does that really surprise anyone? It is affluent areas that do well. Would it surprise anyone to learn that it is mostly big suburbs who dominate alpine skiing, golf, swimming, lacrosse, etc? I doubt it.

Will it stop if we point fingers on a message board? I highly doubt it.
In my opinion, the answer is trying to get numbers up in communities around the state. Starting programs that can get kids into arenas at a young age for a cheaper cost is a great start. Wouldn't it be great if 15 years from now we have 3 great tournaments at the X because we had 200+ high school programs.



I think you are very clueless as to what goes on in small town communities. What do you think they are doing now??? They are literally using every talent they have and developing it from early on to the best of their ability and filling in the gaps with whatever they can. Think about it, If schools like Virginia, Hibbing, Eveleth, Greenway, and I falls ALL came together to field a team, it still wouldn't be the numbers that St. Thomas and Breck are pulling from. Where do you think these "numbers" are supposed to come from? Just appear out of thin air?



The MSHSL seems to be doing in hockey similar to what the NCAA is doing with D1 FBS football. Every poll I've seen show over 90% of people want a different post season in football, yet they do nothing. Same with HS hockey; there is issue on both sides.

Would they make a rule singling out two/three schools? No, but if it was determined to be the intended result, why not call those two or three schools with a statement something like this:
"If you and the other one/two schools getting this letter don't opt up for next year, all private schools will be required to opt up. Ball's in your court."
It would be last on my list of things to do, but it is an entirely possible thing.

It may come to something like that who knows, but it is a sad message for a school of suppossed "excellence" to have to come to this and can't figure it out on their own.

Ultimately, I'm just asking what end result people want. It still seems to me like people just want to complain. I'd bet a good deal that if all private schools were in AA and doing well, people would still complain instead of discussing ways to actually fix the problem. Any private schools supporter who wishes the demise of public schools is quite ignorant. We all want public schools doing well with private schools as an alternative for those who'd like to use them.

In case you weren't aware, there are private schools in AA that do very well and yes people still complain somewhat but that is more because they are the teams people love to hate, but they are still respected as a program for playing where they belong. As it is now, the only people who respect st. thomas (or Breck or a few others mentioned)in a hockey sense is students and alumni, and even some of those have said they are embarrassed by this; and they wouldn't dominate every year, there are too many very good public schools in AA for that to happen. They would win some of course and a lot of people will root against them, but that is part of the fun. That is not the case in single A.

I understand that "hockey's different" (as every sport is unique from every other), but were we to really have a state tournament that drew fractions of what the Class A tournament does now just so small schools could live this dream seems odd (Class A set attendance records with mostly private schools this year; some people are watching).
Around the country, state tournaments are for the best teams. With the exception many years of the biggest/smallest classes in football, most sports' smallest champion could play with and sometimes beat the biggest championI don't pretend to understand the mentality of calling for a worse tournament (quality of play wise) instead of two great ones.

1. Do you honestly think that private school bring in a better crowd than community schools? These towns shut down their city to come down. Virginia and Hibbing are small towns that bring twice as many people with them to the tourny when they go than the single A privates. In fact, I bet there were still more people from Virginia and Hibbing at the tourny this year even though they didn't have teams there, than in the sections for St. Thomas or Breck. I don't think the attendance numbers would have been worse if the privates weren't there.

2. I just don't buy this statement. I have been around sports including and other than hockey my whole life, went to state in tennis twice, followed HS baseball and boys tennis closely (I went to state in girls), and softball and I have very rarely seen this to be the case.

3. Maybe you think it would be a "worse" tournament, however it would provide for much better matchups throughout the whole A tourny but especially the first round which would hold many more people's interest, not to mention the fact of what this whole debate is all about, the people who the single A tournament was created for will be playing there. Do you think for one second that the powers that be who made the decision to go to two classes forsaw this as the outcome? Metro all star teams making a mockery out of small town teams?



So, I ask:
Not next year, not three years from now, but "10 years from now, how would you envision the perfect MN HS hockey system?"[/i]

With class A the way it was meant to be, small town communitites, and yes that can include small town privates. And the st. thomas and brecks of the world would do what THEY KNOW and most everyone else knows is the right thing to do. I personally don't want to make specific changes to rules in the tournament or classes, I just want integrity back in the single A tourny. AA is one of the best tournys on the planet and will continue to be that way with hopefully even more good competition to come in. Ok I changed my mind, one rule I would like to see in place would be that you can't play teams of another class UNLESS they're in your conference. I think it is a joke that St. Thomas plays a predominantly AA schedule and then breezes through the tourny with no competition. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

stpaul
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:26 am

Girls BB

Post by stpaul » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Something must be done about Girls Baskeball! Maranatha Academy wins A, Providence Academy wins AA & DeLaSalle wins AAA. They are robbing all those communities of their rightful state championships. They must all be forced into AAAA! I can't stand the unfairness of it all. The only true champions are those wonderful girls "from" Hopkins.

blacklung
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Post by blacklung » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:48 pm

RangeHockeyFan1817 wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:It's been a week or so since I've been on here and it surprises me there's only one more page of whining, thought it'd be much more.
What strikes me as so odd about this whole topic is that you have "bashers" (for lack of a better term) who started this thread and have been going on and on putting down teenagers and a school. What has this team/school/fans been doing this whole time? Playing hockey, educating students and answering questions. That's it. And somehow it is "classless" to do that, but pointing fingers and talking down about others isn't? #-o
We have teenagers that go out and play 6 post season games because they love hockey and regardless of what school they are from, they won the JV trophy. In 2007, Hermantown did too, it wasn't any different.


1. I have not heard a single person bash any players for the school's decision to stay in A. A few posters have commented on their behavior on the ice, but that is not what we're talking about.
2. If after 21 pages you don't know what people are talking about when they say st. thomas is classless then I don't know what to tell ya. It is quite obvious to nearly every one else.
3. This is the part your REALLY not getting, it was NOT THE SAME when Hermantown won in 2007, Hermantown is a small community school who this single A tourny was made for, not your metro all stars team. I mean do you really not get it? This is the type of team we WANT to see win it and I wouldn't care if they never opt up, if they do great, but if not they are the ones who are where they are supposed to be.



The statement I've made multiple times that is usually agreed with and rarely refuted is that people just want something to complain about. What I'd like to know is: long term, [with the exception of a one class system that won't realistically happen] what solution are you really looking for?

a. One Class
It won't happen, but let's at least talk about it. I don't understand what would be so much better than what we have now. Half as many state games, less teams on display and even less small town feel than we have now.

b. Two Classes, no opting up
I've suggested this and have multiple people on both sides of the discussion. I don't see the down side of it, but apparently in a sport that enrollment admittedly has little to do with talent, the bigger enrollment class is "better" despite many years the big-enrollment finalists being small enrollment schools.

c. Two classes, no opting up, all privates AA
Could Roseau and Cloquet handle playing for the JV tournament? I don't know what would end up happening with hockey in places like Minnehaha/Legacy Christian. It'd be interesting to see.

d. Two classes, opting up, all privates AA
If all private schools were in AA next year, who would be next? I don't pretend to be in any administrations, but I would guess more than zero public school teams would also opt up. Is this what you want?


e. Two classes, bottom 64 in A, co-ops in A, privates in AA
What we have now with a "small town" feel and a 7A vs 8A championship every year.

I can tell you with certainty it wouldn't be a 7A vs 8A championship every year. You think Hermantown wouldn't consistantly be there or another 5A representative?

f. Three class, A, AA, PS
What the article posted suggested.


The article was right; in a sport where money is a huge factor, private schools [and affluent communities] do well. Does that really surprise anyone? It is affluent areas that do well. Would it surprise anyone to learn that it is mostly big suburbs who dominate alpine skiing, golf, swimming, lacrosse, etc? I doubt it.

Will it stop if we point fingers on a message board? I highly doubt it.
In my opinion, the answer is trying to get numbers up in communities around the state. Starting programs that can get kids into arenas at a young age for a cheaper cost is a great start. Wouldn't it be great if 15 years from now we have 3 great tournaments at the X because we had 200+ high school programs.



I think you are very clueless as to what goes on in small town communities. What do you think they are doing now??? They are literally using every talent they have and developing it from early on to the best of their ability and filling in the gaps with whatever they can. Think about it, If schools like Virginia, Hibbing, Eveleth, Greenway, and I falls ALL came together to field a team, it still wouldn't be the numbers that St. Thomas and Breck are pulling from. Where do you think these "numbers" are supposed to come from? Just appear out of thin air?



The MSHSL seems to be doing in hockey similar to what the NCAA is doing with D1 FBS football. Every poll I've seen show over 90% of people want a different post season in football, yet they do nothing. Same with HS hockey; there is issue on both sides.

Would they make a rule singling out two/three schools? No, but if it was determined to be the intended result, why not call those two or three schools with a statement something like this:
"If you and the other one/two schools getting this letter don't opt up for next year, all private schools will be required to opt up. Ball's in your court."
It would be last on my list of things to do, but it is an entirely possible thing.

It may come to something like that who knows, but it is a sad message for a school of suppossed "excellence" to have to come to this and can't figure it out on their own.

Ultimately, I'm just asking what end result people want. It still seems to me like people just want to complain. I'd bet a good deal that if all private schools were in AA and doing well, people would still complain instead of discussing ways to actually fix the problem. Any private schools supporter who wishes the demise of public schools is quite ignorant. We all want public schools doing well with private schools as an alternative for those who'd like to use them.

In case you weren't aware, there are private schools in AA that do very well and yes people still complain somewhat but that is more because they are the teams people love to hate, but they are still respected as a program for playing where they belong. As it is now, the only people who respect st. thomas (or Breck or a few others mentioned)in a hockey sense is students and alumni, and even some of those have said they are embarrassed by this; and they wouldn't dominate every year, there are too many very good public schools in AA for that to happen. They would win some of course and a lot of people will root against them, but that is part of the fun. That is not the case in single A.

I understand that "hockey's different" (as every sport is unique from every other), but were we to really have a state tournament that drew fractions of what the Class A tournament does now just so small schools could live this dream seems odd (Class A set attendance records with mostly private schools this year; some people are watching).
Around the country, state tournaments are for the best teams. With the exception many years of the biggest/smallest classes in football, most sports' smallest champion could play with and sometimes beat the biggest championI don't pretend to understand the mentality of calling for a worse tournament (quality of play wise) instead of two great ones.

1. Do you honestly think that private school bring in a better crowd than community schools? These towns shut down their city to come down. Virginia and Hibbing are small towns that bring twice as many people with them to the tourny when they go than the single A privates. In fact, I bet there were still more people from Virginia and Hibbing at the tourny this year even though they didn't have teams there, than in the sections for St. Thomas or Breck. I don't think the attendance numbers would have been worse if the privates weren't there.

2. I just don't buy this statement. I have been around sports including and other than hockey my whole life, went to state in tennis twice, followed HS baseball and boys tennis closely (I went to state in girls), and softball and I have very rarely seen this to be the case.

3. Maybe you think it would be a "worse" tournament, however it would provide for much better matchups throughout the whole A tourny but especially the first round which would hold many more people's interest, not to mention the fact of what this whole debate is all about, the people who the single A tournament was created for will be playing there. Do you think for one second that the powers that be who made the decision to go to two classes forsaw this as the outcome? Metro all star teams making a mockery out of small town teams?



So, I ask:
Not next year, not three years from now, but "10 years from now, how would you envision the perfect MN HS hockey system?"[/i]

With class A the way it was meant to be, small town communitites, and yes that can include small town privates. And the st. thomas and brecks of the world would do what THEY KNOW and most everyone else knows is the right thing to do. I personally don't want to make specific changes to rules in the tournament or classes, I just want integrity back in the single A tourny. AA is one of the best tournys on the planet and will continue to be that way with hopefully even more good competition to come in. Ok I changed my mind, one rule I would like to see in place would be that you can't play teams of another class UNLESS they're in your conference. I think it is a joke that St. Thomas plays a predominantly AA schedule and then breezes through the tourny with no competition. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Nice Post RangeHockeyFan, too bad HSHW will never get it.

Your rankings should be easy next year as we already know who is #1 and will win state class a again and again and again... STA!
Last edited by blacklung on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

RangeHockeyFan1817
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:39 pm
Location: Duluth, MN

Re: Girls BB

Post by RangeHockeyFan1817 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:51 pm

stpaul wrote:Something must be done about Girls Baskeball! Maranatha Academy wins A, Providence Academy wins AA & DeLaSalle wins AAA. They are robbing all those communities of their rightful state championships. They must all be forced into AAAA! I can't stand the unfairness of it all. The only true champions are those wonderful girls "from" Hopkins.
I'm not sure what the point of this is. Maybe it is not seen as a problem in girls basketball, especially considering the MIB girls got beat in the championship game in A 49-37. Not exactly a blow out. AA was 46-40 and AAA was 65-45. All pretty competitive games which tells me all are where they are supposed to be, it seems. The St. Thomas equivalent to that would be the 50-10 if not more. So evidently it doesn't seem to be as much as a lopsided problem in girls basketball as it is in hockey. Any other totally irrelevant comparisons you want to throw out there?
Last edited by RangeHockeyFan1817 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MNHockeyFan
Posts: 6959
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm

Post by MNHockeyFan » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:51 pm

blacklung wrote:Your rankings should be easy next year as we already know who is #1 and will win state class a again and again and again... STA!
Almost as predictable as these "must opt up" threads are every year.

HShockeywatcher
Posts: 6848
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm

Post by HShockeywatcher » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:38 am

Looking through how much time it probably took RangeHockeyFan1817 to go through and bold/edit my post to not even discuss the issues I bring up gave me a good laugh. But I'm here, so I thought I'd comment on what's being said.
slacsap wrote:Even in a "class" system, a team can choose to play up. A soccer team made up of 10 year olds can choose to play as an under 12 team if they wish. A football team at a college that is Division II, or even Division III, can choose to compete in Division I. Why should high school hockey not give teams the same option?
Incorrect.
If you are referring to something like U12 leagues, that is under 12. So since a 10 year old is under 12, they can be in it. But if they league is specifically for 12 year olds, a 10 year old cannot be in it.

Divisions is slightly different. If you want to change, you can. The main thing that defines you division is the scholarships you can give out [and other rules]. If you want to change that, you can change divisions.
blacklung wrote:Nice Post RangeHockeyFan, too bad HSHW will never get it.
I do get it. I got it a long time ago; instead of answering one simple question and discussing the real "issue" at hand, you want to continue to point fingers and tell me what little I know about this issue.
RangeHockeyFan1817 wrote: I think it is a joke that St. Thomas plays a predominantly AA schedule and then breezes through the tourny with no competition. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Pretty funny that you took a post not about any schools in general and made it all about two private schools and me (I'm honored :mrgreen: ) and didn't address any of the real issues or answer the one question posed.

As for St Thomas' non-conference schedule:
They have 8 scheduled games and 3 tournament games.
The 3 tournament games they have no control over who they play, when they first joined Schwan's years ago it was A and AA teams.
Of the 8 remaining, 7 are against private schools, 2 AA, 4 A and Shattuck. Then there's Roseau, who's an A school by enrollment. So, of the 8 non-conference games they schedule, 37.5% are AA.
Even if you want to count the Schwan's games, calling 6 out of 11 "predominantly" to make a point is pretty funny :lol:

Why don't you start a thread titled "I don't agree with HShockeywatcher" and say whatever you want about me in their and leave this topic open for actual discussion about this topic? 8)

blindref
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:10 am

Post by blindref » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:26 am

Let's have AA and A
Sweet sixteen bracket
Play your own class first round
Mix it up after that

STA and Breck would probably still win a trophy every 10-15 years and they wouldn't have to feel embarrassed about doing it.

Locked