How Minnesotans did in the draft

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xy
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Post by xy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:32 pm

"Some heads should roll at the Wild"

With all due respect, is a questionable choice with a 7th round pick really a fireable offense? I don't think it was a wise pick at all, for the reasons stated by myself and others in prior posts on this topic, but let's not lose perspective here. In terms of how it impacted the franchise, if you rated things on a 10-point scale, it wouldn't even come close to reaching half a point.

At times like this I do see what Hammy's getting at in wondering about how worked up people can get over things like this.

observer
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Post by observer » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:52 pm

Shattuck Players Drafted

52nd C Teddy Blueger
68th D John Draeger
112th C Zach Stepan
178th W Hunter Fejes

Minnesota High School Players Drafted

126th C Dom Toninato
185th D Jake Bischoff
188th W Lou Nanne
204th W Judd Peterson

Are the Shattuck players ahead of top Minnesota HS players? Or, just more exposure and games may have put them ahead developmentally today? If the draft is about projecting potential upside, in 3-4-6 years, should more Minnesota High School players have been drafted? If the top 20 Minnesota High School players had all played at Shattuck would more have been drafted?

I understand the Minnesota High School players have fewer games under the belt and may be behind in development today but isn't the draft about projecting futures? What does that say other than the Minnesota High School players are not getting a lot of respect?

Here's a link to an article about all 20 high school payers drafted.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=635956

54fighting
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Post by 54fighting » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:42 pm

I think the question everyone is missing is what is going on with Mn Hockey? There was only one player that played his youth hockey in the MN Hockey system chosen in the top 125 picks. What does this say about the development within MN Hockey? Even the one player played his last couple of years in Ann Arbor. Seems that with the number of kids we have playing in our youth hockey programs we should be developing more kids. There seems to be a trend here. Any thoughts?

2112
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Post by 2112 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Minnesota High School does not get much respect from scouts, ave age is 16.5 in Minnesota high School. How can you evaluate talent if draft eligible players are competing against younger kids. If you look at USHL, OHL, WHL and the Q, draft eligible kids play against own age or older. Shattuck plays against kids their own age or older. Plus with the limited number of games and the new rules, how do you compare Minnesota high school with rest of USA and Canada.

Gopher Blog
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Post by Gopher Blog » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:06 pm

ticktacktonka wrote:Gopher Blog: Your post makes no sense. You imply that Kloos wasn't taken because of his size, yet Louie was listed at just 5'10"--not much bigger than Kloos, I don't think.
It's not necessarily a height issue. But NHL teams will always consider how a player projects to handle the physical brand of the pro game. Nanne may not be a lot bigger but he is a guy that plays more of that gritty, physical style we tend to see in the pro game.

That's not knocking Kloos because I am very happy he will be a Gopher. He's an exciting player and I will be pulling for him to keep getting better and eventually land a pro opportunity in his own right. He might get drafted next year. Or he could remain an undrafted free agent in which he may find himself in the very advantageous position of picking the right spot down the road if he continues to produce. It is still achievable for him.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:24 pm

I think it's also worth noting that several high-profile Minnesotans who did not play in the MSHSL also were not drafted. Players like Cody Corbett and AJ Michaelson were ahead of players like Kloos, Besse, and Johnson (and Toninato and Peterson, for that matter) on most draft boards, yet they didn't get drafted either. Another of Shattuck's top players, Jake Montgomery, didn't go, either. What do we make of that?

In a perfect world we'd be able to wait a few years and study the results of drafts like this. Is the lack of Minnesotans an anomaly, or the beginning of a trend? Did NHL teams just flat-out miss on some of these players? Are Central Scouting rankings really as unreliable as they seemed to be this year?

But, of course, a study five years from now isn't going to help next year's seniors decide what the best development choice might be, and it's very easy to snap up a small sample size and spin it however one might want to spin it. Hopefully players can stay above all the hysteria and make the best choice, whatever that might be.

xy
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Post by xy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:09 pm

One reason the draft is such a crapshoot is that the draft age is 18. If the NHL teams had their way it would be 19; maybe five players a year are capable of playing in the NHL at 18, and drafting would be much easier if you had another year to assess them. It certainly might help all the Minnesota kids who stay in high school if they then had a year of junior or college before being drafted.

The draft age was 19 until Ken Linseman took the league to court and successfully challenged it. If you ever want to see a loaded draft look at 1979, which was the first year 18s were eligible and was essentially two years' worth of prospects. Only two of 21 first-rounders didn't play at least 400 NHL games.

BBB
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Post by BBB » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:08 pm

but the NHL types have always overrated the height variable.
Really. I think its underrated. I could personally care less about what pm Bouchard does in November during a 4-4 in ot. He is not built for the playoffs regardless of his skill.
Have you watched the playoffs the last few years? Do the names chara, lucic, carter, and penner ring a bell? The kings called up 2 younger guys who were 6-3 230 to go along with all their 6-3 and 6-4 players. We're you surprised no one could touch them.
Back to the main topic....what an embarrassing show of mn players at the draft. Nanne was the only metro player taken to go along with a few later round guys and only had one ushl/ntdp player taken...wow!
I thinks it's kinda funny that there was even discussion before the draft about Nanne being drafted vs being a free agent with more flexibility. Normally those discussions don't take place regarding 2nd and 3rd line guys in mn high school hockey who have yet to hit the ultra exclusive 30 pt club.

xy
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Post by xy » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:19 am

I don't know that we want to go so far as saying size is underrated. Claude Giroux and Zach Parise are 5'11" (and I know some are dubious that Parise's even that tall). Patrick Kane's no giant, and Brad Marchand's 5'9". All of them have done well in the playoffs in recent years. If you want to go back further, Doug Gilmour, Martin St. Louis, and Theo Fleury did okay.

One of the things at play here is that size is, obviously, quantifiable. The nature of hockey, which does not generate nearly as many meaningful statistics as, say, baseball, means that to a large part you're going on subjective assessments by scouts that make comparisons between players hard. So those things you can measure might be given more emphasis than they should in some cases.

observer
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Post by observer » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:56 am

One single metro player from the largest hockey market in the US. And, there are a lot of very good players in the metro.

BBB
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Post by BBB » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:34 pm

Minnesotan Justin Braun re-signed with the sharks today (7th rd pick in 07)
The sharks also have Jason Demers (2008 7th rd pick) in their top 6 d. It sounds like they don't they throw in the towel come the later rounds.
On a side note, their leading goal scorer joe pavelski was a 7th rd pick...odd, they make the playoffs basically every year.
If the Wild would do away with their scouting staff and just follow the CSB ratings and pick the top rated available player, they would probably have a better team.
Does James Sheppard still play hockey?

MrBoDangles
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Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:41 pm


ticktacktonka
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Post by ticktacktonka » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:26 pm

Great post BBB. Goes to show you that it is not wise to "throw away" any pick. It is interesting to see the lack of Minnesotans in the draft. Not only Minnesotans, but also Americans in general. It look like Americans represented less than 25% of all the draftees??

So what has happened to Minnesota Hockey and even USA hockey? How are we not competing with the Europeans and Canadians? Any thoughts? I'd say it is because we Americans aren't willing to send our 11 year old away to train with the best. Did anyone see the story of the 11 year old who moved away from his family? I think he went in the 1st round.

flatontheice
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Post by flatontheice » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:13 pm

ticktacktonka wrote:Gopher Blog: Your post makes no sense. You imply that Kloos wasn't taken because of his size, yet Louie was listed at just 5'10"--not much bigger than Kloos, I don't think. I agree with you that a 7th round pick isn't probably ever going to play in the NHL..what is the odds anyone out of the 1st round ever does? But, to use a pick for PR reasons by a profit-seeking business that seeks to sell tickets was not a very good decisions. Wild fans want to see that the people in charge actually know hockey, that they're not just repaying some celebrity for some positive press they he might throw their way. I feel sorry for Louie, I bet he's not feeling very good about being drafted right now. As a second/third liner on the Edina team, a lower player in the Elite league, I'm sure he knows he's not really the caliber of a Gopher Hockey player let alone an NHL draft pick. Kids know where they fit in the big scheme of things. So, let's leave poor Louie out of this. Some heads should roll at the Wild and a clear message should be sent to them that the ticket purchasing people of Minnesota want to see them make some sound,intelligent decisions. Same with the Gophers, hit them where it hurts, their pockets.
I do agree that a great kid has really been embarrassed by his fathers ego on this one.

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:22 pm

It is a very interesting pick for the Wild, considering he got drafted lower in the USHL with the (233rd) overall pick and the Wild take him (188th) overall.

xy
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Post by xy » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:49 pm

As tempting as it might be to use that as a basis for ridiculing the Wild, it's only fair to point out that the drafts aren't really equivalent. Because there is an upper age limit for the USHL, many of the players picked in that draft were younger players who had more potential USHL seasons they could play and thus would be more valuable to a team than someone who's old enough to be NHL-draft eligible. Also, it was known that Nanne was likely headed to Penticton next year and the U after that, so it wouldn't make sense for a USHL team to use an early pick on him.

SuperStar
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Post by SuperStar » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:43 pm

Wasn't trying to ridicule anyone, just wonder why that was. You make a valid point. Like I said before its an interesting pick... I wish the boy well and hope he does good...

xy
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Post by xy » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:22 pm

No problem, and I see your point - I just didn't know if you meant that it was some indication that he was less highly regarded by the USHL than the NHL.

BBB
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Post by BBB » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:39 pm

HaHa. The kid hasn't hit the 30pt mark in hs hockey and you think he can be a high pick and play in the ushl? His family and others are talking about being a free agent rather than a 7th round pick.
So for you guys that think this was a legit pick and not based on his name. Do you think the wild would have taken a guy from Eastview or Roseville who averaged around 20 some points a years and was considered small by hockey standards. What if he ranked 551st in high school scoring during his draft year and his last name was Anderson?

auld_skool
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Post by auld_skool » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:36 am

This has been an interesting thread to read in a few ways. Since I tripped across this forum a couple years ago my religion has been to never bad mouth a young athlete in any way. In that vein, I have 2 responses here:

1) My son has played with and against this young man going back all the way to squirts. He's always had a great attitude and been great to be with on the ice. "Really Nice" keeps coming up over and over.

2) The Minnesota Wild needs to keep improving. If they can develop some of their younger guys in Houston they can be decent, but probably still at least a couple years away from the next level. They need to sign someone like Parise soon if they want to sell more season tickets this year.

mngopherfan
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Post by mngopherfan » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:57 pm

BBB wrote:HaHa. The kid hasn't hit the 30pt mark in hs hockey and you think he can be a high pick and play in the ushl? His family and others are talking about being a free agent rather than a 7th round pick.
So for you guys that think this was a legit pick and not based on his name. Do you think the wild would have taken a guy from Eastview or Roseville who averaged around 20 some points a years and was considered small by hockey standards. What if he ranked 551st in high school scoring during his draft year and his last name was Anderson?
He has skated with the Wild in their development camp (his dad is a scout) so they obviously know what they're getting. Louie, at the earliest, will sign in 5 years...the wild already have plenty of young prospects, pushing a 7th rounder off 5 years makes more sense than drafting a kid from Jr.s who will need to be signed or lost in the next 2-3 years.

pitbull
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Post by pitbull » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:21 pm

When Fletcher took over the Wild he spoke of the team having no identity and wanted his team of the future to have a home grown face with Minnesota boys. While this is yet another promise he hasn't been able to fulfill, picking Nanne has been another PR stunt that hasn't gone over like he had hoped. :roll: :roll:

hockeyfool
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Post by hockeyfool » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:46 pm

It's all in the name....watched him from squirts...good but NHL is not in the sand.

almostashappy
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Post by almostashappy » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:32 pm

mngopherfan wrote: He has skated with the Wild in their development camp (his dad is a scout) so they obviously know what they're getting. Louie, at the earliest, will sign in 5 years...the wild already have plenty of young prospects, pushing a 7th rounder off 5 years makes more sense than drafting a kid from Jr.s who will need to be signed or lost in the next 2-3 years.
The argument about drafting a kid bound for college that doesn't have to be signed for 4-5 years is perfectly valid. So is the argument that there are tangible and intangible benefits to taking a 7th round flyer on a kid from Minnesota. And who really wants to argue against drafting somebody who works hard and has a squeaky-clean, worry-free rep?

But even then, it still comes down to this...are there other wholesome, hard-working Minnesota kids that wouldn't have to be signed for 4-5 years that have stronger upsides than the kid who was picked? I'm quite certain that are at least a few...just take a look at xy's list.

Slap Shot
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Post by Slap Shot » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:29 am

ticktacktonka wrote:So what has happened to Minnesota Hockey and even USA hockey?
Are there really this many people evaluating this as a new phenomena?

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