The sky is falling?

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BBB
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Post by BBB » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:49 pm

How many major jr players from here do you know 'personally' from MN who have expressed their regret to you?
Care to give any names or is that confidential?

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Post by O-townClown » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:50 pm

B, not sure who you are asking. As you know, there aren't that many Minnesotans that chose that path in the 80s and 90s. Some, but not as many as you see today.

The guys that immediately come to mind are from Michigan, Ontario, and Manitoba.

I wish these kids well. Glad they've got it all figured out. Age 15 or 16, the age of the Breck kid when he played his one game with the Winterhawks, is a bit young to have so much clarity on the rest of your life.
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BBB
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Post by BBB » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:13 pm

so can they give out full rides to places like the U of M like the post above states? does anyone know what the whole scholastic program is with major jr or is it not cut and dry?
If so, it doesn't sound so bad. Kids can give all their effort to being a hockey player from age 16-20 and if it doesn't work out. They can start school and focus totally on that from age 20-24? Some people make it sound the whl is sending players who don't sign NHL contracts up to work in the mines at age 21.

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Post by O-townClown » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:37 pm

BBB wrote:so can they give out full rides to places like the U of M like the post above states? does anyone know what the whole scholastic program is with major jr or is it not cut and dry?
If so, it doesn't sound so bad. Kids can give all their effort to being a hockey player from age 16-20 and if it doesn't work out. They can start school and focus totally on that from age 20-24? Some people make it sound the whl is sending players who don't sign NHL contracts up to work in the mines at age 21.
B, it gets murky because nearly everyone isn't NHL ready at age 20. The Wild just signed a guy named Zenon Konopka that did the whole ECHL-AHL-NHL progression. I think we're up to 500 NHL players that played in the ECHL at one point...Scott Gordon was the first.

So imagine a kid plays in the Western and ages out of Juniors. Now he's 21 and there probably is a professional team that will take him. As I understand it (and this is probably a little off), the Junior team will pay for your school if you don't sign a professional contract.

Another route is to play in the USHL. In this scenario, the same kid could age out of Juniors and play NCAA hockey up until about age 25. He can still play in the professional ranks. Matt Gilroy is the obvious example of an old NHL rookie. I'm hearing that Myles Harvey is a current late-blooming NCAA player that could reach the NHL some day.

The argument proffered by Canadian Junior hockey proponents is that they pay for school too. A guy quoted in the Strib story glossed over it so fast and said it cancels out the NCAA argument. No. Kids that play Tier II Junior in Canada or USHL/NAHL in the United States get to have the Junior hockey career and - if they desire - a full NCAA career. None of this requires giving up on NHL dreams. That's not the same as how the Canadian Tier I (Western, Ontario, Quebec leagues) is treated because the NCAA considers these kids as paid.

Shane McColgan is a good example of a can't miss kid that went to the Western. He didn't grow, didn't really get better, and didn't get selected very early in the NHL Draft. So he didn't seem to benefit from it, and now he can't go play for a college team in the U.S. But you and others are okay with it because he "pursued his dream" and challenged himself "at the highest level" by shutting the NCAA door at age 16.

Well done Shane.
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Post by O-townClown » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:51 pm

The contract includes the league’s standard education agreement, which provides for one year of post-secondary school for every season spent in the WHL.

B: I have not read an actual SEA. Here is some information from a news story where a team drafted some 15 year old.
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Post by mulefarm » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:54 pm

After reading the bashing of major jr players, Canada must be full of uneducated and unemployed former major junior players.

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Post by O-townClown » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:04 pm

mulefarm wrote:After reading the bashing of major jr players, Canada must be full of uneducated and unemployed former major junior players.
Same as us with ex-Minor League baseball players.
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Post by karl(east) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:46 pm

Some evidence from the program I know best: 2 Duluth East players left early for Canadian major juniors. One, Patrick Finnegan, was at one point considered the crown jewel of the East program. He was labeled "the next Mike Crowley," led East to three state tournaments and one state title, and left for the OHL after his junior year. He spent two years there and was not drafted. He wound up in Holland for a year or two and later played five games in the ECHL, but his career petered out after that. Not sure if he took advantage of the education package or not; I believe he had some family tragedy that complicated his personal life, but it's hard to label that a success story. Incidentally, his defensive partner at East in his final season there, Nick Angell, went to the NCAA, won a national championship at Minnesota, and is still playing professional hockey in Europe, 14 seasons after he graduated from East.

The other, Jon Hedberg, left after his sophomore year in 98-99. He spent three years in the OHL, went undrafted, then wound up playing hockey at York University in Toronto for four years. He played hockey for three seasons after that, 2 in Europe and one in U.S. minor leagues. So he didn't probably end up where he hoped to be, but appears to have gotten a pretty good education and continued his hockey career.

All early departures from East since have gone to the NTDP or USHL. All played D-1 hockey and continued to play after college, with varying degrees of success. And, of course, plenty of the players who stuck around have done alright for themselves, too.

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Post by C-dad » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:30 pm

karl(east) wrote:Some evidence from the program I know best: 2 Duluth East players left early for Canadian major juniors. One, Patrick Finnegan, was at one point considered the crown jewel of the East program. He was labeled "the next Mike Crowley," led East to three state tournaments and one state title, and left for the OHL after his junior year. He spent two years there and was not drafted. He wound up in Holland for a year or two and later played five games in the ECHL, but his career petered out after that. Not sure if he took advantage of the education package or not; I believe he had some family tragedy that complicated his personal life, but it's hard to label that a success story. Incidentally, his defensive partner at East in his final season there, Nick Angell, went to the NCAA, won a national championship at Minnesota, and is still playing professional hockey in Europe, 14 seasons after he graduated from East.

The other, Jon Hedberg, left after his sophomore year in 98-99. He spent three years in the OHL, went undrafted, then wound up playing hockey at York University in Toronto for four years. He played hockey for three seasons after that, 2 in Europe and one in U.S. minor leagues. So he didn't probably end up where he hoped to be, but appears to have gotten a pretty good education and continued his hockey career.

All early departures from East since have gone to the NTDP or USHL. All played D-1 hockey and continued to play after college, with varying degrees of success. And, of course, plenty of the players who stuck around have done alright for themselves, too.
Wasn't Hedberg a metro kid (Edina or SLP?) who transferred up to Duluth?

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Post by karl(east) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:52 pm

C-dad wrote:Wasn't Hedberg a metro kid (Edina or SLP?) who transferred up to Duluth?
He played varsity as a freshman for East, so if he was a transfer, it was before high school. Hockeydb.com lists his birthplace as Duluth, though that isn't always 100% reliable. Anyone who's a little older than me know the answer?

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Post by east hockey » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:36 pm

karl(east) wrote:
C-dad wrote:Wasn't Hedberg a metro kid (Edina or SLP?) who transferred up to Duluth?
He played varsity as a freshman for East, so if he was a transfer, it was before high school. Hockeydb.com lists his birthplace as Duluth, though that isn't always 100% reliable. Anyone who's a little older than me know the answer?
He played youth hockey in Edina.

And when you say "a little older than me", you should include "or a hell of a lot older than me". Otherwise, you miss out on some target audience. :mrgreen:

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karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:54 pm

east hockey wrote:
karl(east) wrote:
C-dad wrote:Wasn't Hedberg a metro kid (Edina or SLP?) who transferred up to Duluth?
He played varsity as a freshman for East, so if he was a transfer, it was before high school. Hockeydb.com lists his birthplace as Duluth, though that isn't always 100% reliable. Anyone who's a little older than me know the answer?
He played youth hockey in Edina.

And when you say "a little older than me", you should include "or a hell of a lot older than me". Otherwise, you miss out on some target audience. :mrgreen:

Lee
Cool, I didn't know that the tentacles of the Evil East Recruiting Machine extended all the way to Edina. :lol:

And, yeah, I probably should have expanded my age range. It'd be a mistake not to include all you ancients who remember such distant eras as the 1980s.

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Post by east hockey » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:02 pm

karl(east) wrote:
east hockey wrote:
karl(east) wrote:
C-dad wrote:Wasn't Hedberg a metro kid (Edina or SLP?) who transferred up to Duluth?
He played varsity as a freshman for East, so if he was a transfer, it was before high school. Hockeydb.com lists his birthplace as Duluth, though that isn't always 100% reliable. Anyone who's a little older than me know the answer?
He played youth hockey in Edina.

And when you say "a little older than me", you should include "or a hell of a lot older than me". Otherwise, you miss out on some target audience. :mrgreen:

Lee
Cool, I didn't know that the tentacles of the Evil East Recruiting Machine extended all the way to Edina. :lol:

And, yeah, I probably should have expanded my age range. It'd be a mistake not to include all you ancients who remember such distant eras as the 1980s.
Humph. By the 80's I was nearly past my prime. And AARP was already sending out feelers to Elliott. :)

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bafata88
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Post by bafata88 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:25 pm

"]"Four prep standouts won't return as seniors"should read "Four Preps blow off community and high school classmates"... Webster dictionary re-evaluates the definition of "Loyalty"... It is a noun and is not part of the english vocabulary in some parents minds...some parents replace this word with "faithlessness", "falseness" and/ or "infidelity". All I can say is "Thank God our family lives in an area where our family values still use the words community, friends and family". It's not me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me,me.
In a perfect world perhaps the Inspector's opinion makes sense. But this is not a perfect world. There are a few high school programs, Edina in particular since I have some knowledge of that one, where there is zero loyalty given by the coaching staff to the players. It has to be a two way street and since high school hockey coaches can [and do] toss aside players like pieces of meat, then I say let the players and their families take care of their own needs, desires and goals and let the high school coaches and their "so awfully important" programs pound sand. This old time romantic notion of the sanctity of Minnesota High School Boys Hockey is now colored by the reality of today's hockey industry. MSHSL boys hockey is totally cool, sure. But it is certainly not the end all and be all of boys hockey and hockey development. There are too many good options available to the top players, options that do work for many of them.
Last edited by bafata88 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bafata88 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:44 pm

I wish these kids well. Glad they've got it all figured out. Age 15 or 16, the age of the Breck kid when he played his one game with the Winterhawks, is a bit young to have so much clarity on the rest of your life.
I am not understanding the criticism. The Breck kid [and we should assume, his family] has figured out at least one thing, and that is that for the next three years, he will play a lot of hockey at a very high level. If the kid loves to play hockey, he will be playing against guys who may have played a bit in the NHL or are a step away from playing in the NHL. And he is playing a bit more than 30 games plus whatever he might get from the Elite League [assuming the brain wizards there would even take him]. And a second thing he and the family have figured out, is that for each season he plays in the WHL, he gets a year of college paid by the WHL.

Have you ever seen Breck beat one of its Class A rivals 15-0? That kind of game really helps with the development of those players, eh.

We should all relax a bit about MSHSL boys hockey and let these guys go chase their dreams, play some big time hockey, earn some college scholarship money and see where it takes them. Other than popping the bubble of those folk who believe MSHSL boys hockey is a sacred cow, the world is not coming to an end, or, the sky is not really falling.

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Post by urban iceman » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:27 am

I guess it doesn't hurt as bad when they leave schools like Edina, Minnetonka, Lakeville's, etc. They have the kids coming back because of they're size of town and players availiable. But when they leave a small HS it is sometimes devastating. More so when they go to another HS!!

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Post by Tigers33 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:53 am

Bafata - You make less and less sense everytime you speak on here. You are so personally attached to this Edina program, and obviously have some personal past with some of the coaches. It's time to give it up buddy.

What's harder to please? An Edina hockey parent or Bafata. I was gonna use Pamela Anderson has an analogy, but didnt want the admin to get upset.

It's not that hard to get a coach fired these days, happens all over the place. If the current parents really hated him that much they could get him fired. Oh, maybe it's just those that he has cut for ok reasons. Every program should keep all of it's seniors and play them all. Wait, even better, ever coach should rotate through 4 lines and 6 defenseman just to keep everyone happy. Thats it.

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Re: the sky is falling

Post by auld_skool » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:03 am

mom19 wrote:I would just like to set the record straight on the kid from Rogers, I am his mom and am sick and tired of all of you judging kids and families for the decisions they have made when you know nothing about them!! #1 He does not regret his decision to give up NCAA eligibility for one second tigers33. #2 he would not be in the position he is if he would have stayed in Rogers HS program I am not bashing the program just a small school in Mississippi 8. at 18 he has been drafted and also 1 of 46 players invited to the world Jr camp. #3 Just because you go to the CHL does not mean you are stupid he graduated with a 3.7 GPA and could have gotten into any of the D1 schools who were talking to him prior to his decision to leave. #4 We are not bad parents because we let him leave we are parents that believe our children should set their goals high and go after their dreams, we are here to support them and love them!! he has a twin sister going into pre med. #5 "drafted what does that do for him" I am not even going to comment on that because it is such an ignorant comment. Also just so people know we do value education and our son has 4 years of college paid for in full at the UMN from the WHL and will also be doing classes on line the next 2 years that is paid for and does not cut into his 4 years at the U. Does all of this guarantee he is going to NHL Hell no but the last time I checked there are no guarantee's in life. I just wish people would not come on here and talk about things they have no facts on and bash other kids it is pretty sad, there is no one path that is right for everyone so quit judging others. I hope this helps set the record straight on the kid from Rogers!!! This is my first and last post, Have a Great 4th of July with your families.

Good for you Mom! As you can see, some folks don't and never will get it.
There are as many good choices as there are kids. I wish your son all the best!

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Post by bafata88 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:14 pm

Tigers33 wrote:Bafata - You make less and less sense everytime you speak on here. You are so personally attached to this Edina program, and obviously have some personal past with some of the coaches. It's time to give it up buddy.

What's harder to please? An Edina hockey parent or Bafata. I was gonna use Pamela Anderson has an analogy, but didnt want the admin to get upset.

It's not that hard to get a coach fired these days, happens all over the place. If the current parents really hated him that much they could get him fired. Oh, maybe it's just those that he has cut for ok reasons. Every program should keep all of it's seniors and play them all. Wait, even better, ever coach should rotate through 4 lines and 6 defenseman just to keep everyone happy. Thats it.
Really? I was responding to the post calling high school players who leave "disloyal". I have reason to believe high school coaches show no loyalty to players, using Edina as an example. With this in mind, I come to the belief that high school players and their families do not need to show loyalty to their high school programs if they have alternative hockey programs that work for them. Is this really so hard to understand? Is my point so incredibly nonsensical?

If you believe Curt Giles is a great coach who handles his players fairly and appropriately, you and I can agree to disagree on that point. But here, I was focusing on the issue of loyalty in a broader context.

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Post by deacon64 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:39 pm

How about opportunity. Opportunity to play in the greatest High School Tournament, yes MN Hockey! That is what these players are forfieting and that is what cannot understand. Ask any player that has played in this tournament if it is not one if not their best hockey memory. Most have said yes their best hockey memory and most fun had playing hockey.

Few if any of these players will ever see the ice in the NHL, so is leaving HS early going to improve their chances of playing Division I or in the AHL. Doubt it, delaying a year to play in the USHL or NAHL should only provide the opportunity to improve a players chance to succeed in these leagues.

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Post by east hockey » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:02 pm

bafata88 wrote:
Tigers33 wrote:Bafata - You make less and less sense everytime you speak on here. You are so personally attached to this Edina program, and obviously have some personal past with some of the coaches. It's time to give it up buddy.

What's harder to please? An Edina hockey parent or Bafata. I was gonna use Pamela Anderson has an analogy, but didnt want the admin to get upset.

It's not that hard to get a coach fired these days, happens all over the place. If the current parents really hated him that much they could get him fired. Oh, maybe it's just those that he has cut for ok reasons. Every program should keep all of it's seniors and play them all. Wait, even better, ever coach should rotate through 4 lines and 6 defenseman just to keep everyone happy. Thats it.
Really? I was responding to the post calling high school players who leave "disloyal". I have reason to believe high school coaches show no loyalty to players, using Edina as an example. With this in mind, I come to the belief that high school players and their families do not need to show loyalty to their high school programs if they have alternative hockey programs that work for them. Is this really so hard to understand? Is my point so incredibly nonsensical?

If you believe Curt Giles is a great coach who handles his players fairly and appropriately, you and I can agree to disagree on that point. But here, I was focusing on the issue of loyalty in a broader context.
As you do whenever you see an opportunity. I believe that was his point. Your agenda is pretty much known by now, and it's time to give it a rest.

Lee
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O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:53 pm

Bafata, so the Western Hockey League is awesome and the United States Hockey League is what?

B, there are other options. He didn't have to close the door on NCAA hockey. You talk about three years of real high level games, but what about age 21-24 if he falls short of the NHL?

He closed the door on the NCAA option.

I don't care what he does. He has to live with the decision. What I've said is it makes no sense to me and had it been me or if it is my son in the future there is no way.

To each their own.
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bafata88
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Post by bafata88 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:33 pm

east hockey wrote:
bafata88 wrote:
Tigers33 wrote:Bafata - You make less and less sense everytime you speak on here. You are so personally attached to this Edina program, and obviously have some personal past with some of the coaches. It's time to give it up buddy.

What's harder to please? An Edina hockey parent or Bafata. I was gonna use Pamela Anderson has an analogy, but didnt want the admin to get upset.

It's not that hard to get a coach fired these days, happens all over the place. If the current parents really hated him that much they could get him fired. Oh, maybe it's just those that he has cut for ok reasons. Every program should keep all of it's seniors and play them all. Wait, even better, ever coach should rotate through 4 lines and 6 defenseman just to keep everyone happy. Thats it.
Really? I was responding to the post calling high school players who leave "disloyal". I have reason to believe high school coaches show no loyalty to players, using Edina as an example. With this in mind, I come to the belief that high school players and their families do not need to show loyalty to their high school programs if they have alternative hockey programs that work for them. Is this really so hard to understand? Is my point so incredibly nonsensical?

If you believe Curt Giles is a great coach who handles his players fairly and appropriately, you and I can agree to disagree on that point. But here, I was focusing on the issue of loyalty in a broader context.
As you do whenever you see an opportunity. I believe that was his point. Your agenda is pretty much known by now, and it's time to give it a rest.

Lee
You're the boss.

BBB
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Post by BBB » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:53 am

B, it gets murky because nearly everyone isn't NHL ready at age 20. The Wild just signed a guy named Zenon Konopka that did the whole ECHL-AHL-NHL progression. I think we're up to 500 NHL players that played in the ECHL at one point...Scott Gordon was the first.
And it's probably worth noting that Kenopka spent 4 seasons in the OHL so you could put that acronym in his progression. It's also interesting that he was traded for SCSU and WCHA standouts Motzko and Hartigan but they both play in Europe now. Kenopka was undrafted out of Junior.
He has made his living being a fighter and basically a pest along with being a 4th line center. I doubt a player like this would have ever made it had he not been able to work his way up through juniors and the minor leagues vs playing ncaa hockey (if he was even good enough at the time?)

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Post by O-townClown » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:14 pm

BBB wrote:I doubt a player like this would have ever made it had he not been able to work his way up through juniors and the minor leagues vs playing ncaa hockey (if he was even good enough at the time?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Parros

You just keep making up stuff.
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