Is the Elite league doing what it was intended to do?

[hipcheck]

Just seems that the Elite League was created to keep players in High School and not be lured into venturing into the Juniors before their high school eligibility was up. Seems to me, it worked at first, but now it just creates another stepping stone for the talented to play in the league and then leave before their senior year anyway.

[karl(east)]

I'll take a stab at this, though I'm afraid I'm going to be complicated and not leave you with an obvious answer.

I'd begin my response by talking people off the ledge...the Elite League does work for many of the players who are in it. Plenty of players have used it to raise their stock, and the combined Elite + high school season isn't that many games shorter than a USHL or NAHL season. In fact, a player who plays juniors after the high school season (or in that short window between Elite and the start of HS hockey) might be able to make up the entire difference.

Still, I do think the Elite League has some very obvious flaws that need to be corrected, or else we will only see more and more defections.

-The most glaring issue is the practice of giving "automatic" berths for players; they are mired in mystery and seem to be concentrated in certain very strong programs. Everything about that looks bad. Make everyone try out, even if it is a mere formality for some.
In general, I think the program could benefit from being a bit more decentralized, maybe giving each of the teams more autonomy, and having a tryout for each of them (by region) instead of having them all go at once. Anything that might make Elite coaches less beholden to special interests and more interested in getting the best group of players on the ice. Bringing in high-end coaches who really invest themselves in the program would also be a very nice boost.
-When the Elite League started taking in younger players, I thought it might be a logical way to keep these players in high school. Instead, many of them ended up just using it as a stepping stone to juniors by the time they were seniors in HS. With that in mind, I'd suggest they go back to focusing heavily on upperclassmen. If that means a few more players leave really early, so be it--at least maybe they can then play their high school hockey (or AAA/Canadian/other HS substitute) in one place.
-On a related note, that opens up the opportunity to turn Elite D into a legitimate developmental league for younger players, instead of the neglected sideshow many seem to describe it as being right now.
-Maybe they will get better, but the games against teams from Norway or Nebraska or Manitoba often seem to wind up as blowouts that don't do anyone any good. Either find opponents that are on the MN kids' level, or just leave them out.

For the sake of fairness, I will throw out some data that counters some of the general assumptions:
-5 of the 7 top-scoring Minnesotans last year were underclassmen. Maybe there were a few too many underclassmen not on that list, but it's not necessarily true that they're all being pushed around and dragging down the level of play. And, of course, they might have been lower on the list if some of the other top-end seniors had stuck around. (Of those 5, 2 left early, and a 3rd is skipping Elite League to play before-and-after in the USHL.)
-A few years ago (2010?), the leading scorer in the league didn't make a roster at the start of the season, and only came on as a replacement. He was from...Edina. Sometimes the top-end teams really are that deep, though this does raise some questions about the tryout process. I am still very skeptical of all those STA berths this year, though.

[knowitall]

The league needs to remove coaches who coach high schoold during the year. Eden Prairie assistant is a coach and Russo's son coaches at Benilde. think they aren't getting their guys in the league?

[auld_skool]

karl, a very well thought out post. The league would be wise to take your suggestions into consideration. I have a ton to say about this but it would be so long no one would want to read it.

To the OP: You're right about why the league was created. I think it's time to decide if that's a worthy goal anymore. I believe it's not.

[almostashappy]

In general, I think the program could benefit from being a bit more decentralized, maybe giving each of the teams more autonomy, and having a tryout for each of them (by region) instead of having them all go at once. Anything that might make Elite coaches less beholden to special interests and more interested in getting the best group of players on the ice. Bringing in high-end coaches who really invest themselves in the program would also be a very nice boost.

Nice, thoughtful post.

The "problem" with decentralizing Elite/Elite-D and having each regional team conduct its tryouts is that it would turn into a mini-version of the State Tourney...the Southwest team would be just as stacked and competitive as Section 6, while other regional teams would be relatively weaker. This would make it that much harder for some deserving players to make a team, and at the same time would create unbalanced schedules...the equivalent of bringing in Norway or Nebraska each year.

Counterargument, of course, is that a common tryout just makes it that much easier for certain teams to get more of their players involved by farming one or two kids out to the other teams.

[Shinbone_News]

While dozens of solid metro programs have no representation at all, STA's placement of nearly two lines of players this year suggests one thing: It's not what you do but who you know. Politics is always a part of the game, of course, as soon as you start excluding anyone, but the league REALLY needs to fix the perception that it's an inside job.

Ironically, it's the shoe-in kids who are the ones using the league as a stepping stone. If you're trying to keep them around for their senior years, you're not seriously going to do that until juniors or NTDP aren't an option (by either making them disappear POOF, or by creating some kind of ineligibility rule -- neither is going to happen in this universe.)

Personally, I look for standout performances from players that don't otherwise get talked about that much -- say Stemen or Labosky (even if they are in strong programs) -- who don't have scouts already drooling over them.

Or maybe someone like Jay Dickman -- a big kid with good DI prospects -- who was a standout in a weak program and no one outside Johnson's conference would have really known about or got the chance to see play. Same with Sengvongxay this year.

I'd actually like to see the League work harder to find/promote outstanding players in weaker programs. No one is surprised that STA (or Edina or BSM) have two lines of exceptional players. That's why we go watch them play Hill-Murray every year, and gripe endlessly about how they keep sandbagging in single A. (And why there are scouts at most of their regular season games anyway.)

Last year we talked about what percentage of Elite League players even play college hockey -- a shockingly small number. Those who have the option to go to juniors, then DI, then maybe pro are a tiny minority -- but a highly visible one, and everyone cringes when a Mario Lucia packs his bags for BC as a sophomore or junior.

[Shinbone_News]

Oh, and just to give some context to the STA rant:

Last year Totino-Grace played STA within one goal TWICE. Great games, both of them -- some of the best high school hockey I've ever seen -- including the region final, which went OT and ended 2-1.

How many players does TG have on 2012 Elites? One.

[karl(east)]

In general, I think the program could benefit from being a bit more decentralized, maybe giving each of the teams more autonomy, and having a tryout for each of them (by region) instead of having them all go at once. Anything that might make Elite coaches less beholden to special interests and more interested in getting the best group of players on the ice. Bringing in high-end coaches who really invest themselves in the program would also be a very nice boost.

Nice, thoughtful post.

The "problem" with decentralizing Elite/Elite-D and having each regional team conduct its tryouts is that it would turn into a mini-version of the State Tourney...the Southwest team would be just as stacked and competitive as Section 6, while other regional teams would be relatively weaker. This would make it that much harder for some deserving players to make a team, and at the same time would create unbalanced schedules...the equivalent of bringing in Norway or Nebraska each year.

Counterargument, of course, is that a common tryout just makes it that much easier for certain teams to get more of their players involved by farming one or two kids out to the other teams.

I guess my idea was of regions that weren't necessarily the same size--I think we can all agree the SW Metro has more top-end talent, so maybe Team Southwest would draw from a smaller list of schools, whereas, say, Team Northeast might need to cast a somewhat wider net. Of course, I could see how people might find this unfair, too.

Team North and Great Plains, being somewhat constrained by geography, already operate with some autonomy. For North, it seems to work pretty well; usually Great Plains is competitive too, though they were not last year, and that bears watching. That may have more to do with the cycles of talent that come through small towns, which would be less of a problem in the Metro. The size of the regions could be adjusted from year to year, as certain programs rise and fall. If you want to be scientific about it, maybe use past numbers of players from certain regions going on to post-HS hockey as a guide.

karl, a very well thought out post. The league would be wise to take your suggestions into consideration. I have a ton to say about this but it would be so long no one would want to read it.

To the OP: You're right about why the league was created. I think it's time to decide if that's a worthy goal anymore. I believe it's not.

I'd certainly be curious to hear a different take, no matter how long it is.

[deacon64]

Obviously something wrong with league based on what is happening if trying to get "elite" talent. Part of problem is league should be at least 10 MN teams then more 'potentially' elite players could be included.

Interesting that Mr. Russo league director has removed his contact information from elite website. Coincidence, doubt it probably a number of people disappointing in league's actions. Too bad kids are victims, yes victims.

The more people that post information such as Totino Grace, Russo coaching at BSM, more STA players than other 25 metro teams combined, etc maybe the league will get the message.

Prediction, GP team will still be at bottom of league as coach supports former high school and gives into pressure of which kids to include on team.

[Puck76]

[quote="karl(east)"][quote="almostashappy"][quote="karl(east)"]

Team North and Great Plains, being somewhat constrained by geography, already operate with some autonomy. For North, it seems to work pretty well; usually Great Plains is competitive too, though they were not last year, and that bears watching. That may have more to do with the cycles of talent that come through small towns, which would be less of a problem in the Metro. The size of the regions could be adjusted from year to year, as certain programs rise and fall. If you want to be scientific about it, maybe use past numbers of players from certain regions going on to post-HS hockey as a guide.

Great Plains should be good this year. Is it a cycle or the selection process? My vote is an inefficient selection process.

[auld_skool]

I'd certainly be curious to hear a different take, no matter how long it is.

A couple quick things right off the top of my head. I think the mission of the Elite league needs to change. From doing whatever it takes to keep the very top kids in Minnesota (who generally don't need any help anyway) to HELPING kids. Helping kids,especially seniors, that WANT to stay in MN for their senior year to develop, get exposed and get more games than the HS year provides. It's a very competitive world when you leave Minnesota. MN athletes that choose to stay here, especially the ones that start school later, have a disadvantage when they get to USHL tryouts, due to having less time they're eligible to play.

Look, if the goal is what it used to be, which was to make it to the State Tournament, then we're doing fine. Tweak the Elite tryout process to make it more fair and we're almost there. But if the goal is to get more kids to higher levels I would change a lot of things.

[Shinbone_News]

Look, if the goal is what it used to be, which was to make it to the State Tournament, then we're doing fine.

I don't get this. In fact it seems a bit of a chicken-or-egg question: Elites tend to be overloaded with players from teams that are clear State Tourney contenders. That's why there's a bias in their favor. They're not State contenders ~because~ they are Elites, they're Elites because they play for State contenders, meaning second-tier teams are going to be lucky to get their single best player even into tryouts.

I think the conversation would benefit from a distinction between "development" and "exposure." I think the goal of the league has primarily been the latter. Most Elite players are in development year around anyway, and those who want to play at a higher level probably ARE smart to get to juniors for a full slate of practices and high-level games.

[observer]

I don't get this. In fact it seems a bit of a chicken-or-egg question: Elites tend to be overloaded with players from teams that are clear State Tourney contenders. That's why there's a bias in their favor. They're not State contenders ~because~ they are Elites, they're Elites because they play for State contenders, meaning second-tier teams are going to be lucky to get their single best player even into tryouts.

Some good comments and suggestions on here. This one by Shinbone is right on. Several are not among the top 100 players in the State but they are on good teams. Any chance anyone from the Elite League reads this?

As for the initial question, No, the League isn't doing what it should.

There are top players on several teams quite a bit better than the 5th through 9th player from STA or Benilde. That is a joke that isn't funny because they're favoring kids for no honest reason. Some players left out would be a top 4-5 scorer on any of the teams. Where a player plays should have no bearing on playing in the Elite League. Frankly, it's sickening.

We love Karl but some of his suggestions are more difficult than necessary. Plus, this isn't really a northern discussion except for DE getting more than their fair share too. That will probably end as DE is post peak.

Start with 90% seniors. Maybe the only juniors are the ones that attended the national camp. I know, some of them are posers and invited to the national camp because of some of the same bias but we'll let them in.

The Elite D League is for all sophomores and most juniors and could be expanded if needed. That's a better testing ground to really identify the top players.

Then ask the kids if they aspire to play beyond their senior season as some do not.

No more than 4 players from any one team as anyone can find a better player, or 20, than the 5th.

[Nuts&Bolts]

Very observant Observer. As for Karl's comment, what works with the league is that it gives the chosen HS kids about 17 more games to prepare for an otherwise short regular season and get some additional exposure. The auto berths - though suspicious at times - are generally for the top players that should be easier picks. The challenge, skepticism, mystery and politics comes with the second half of the team that gets chosen.

[karl(east)]

We love Karl but some of his suggestions are more difficult than necessary. Plus, this isn't really a northern discussion except for DE getting more than their fair share too. That will probably end as DE is post peak.

Start with 90% seniors. Maybe the only juniors are the ones that attended the national camp. I know, some of them are posers and invited to the national camp because of some of the same bias but we'll let them in.

The Elite D League is for all sophomores and most juniors and could be expanded if needed. That's a better testing ground to really identify the top players.

Then ask the kids if they aspire to play beyond their senior season as some do not.

No more than 4 players from any one team as anyone can find a better player, or 20, than the 5th.

I'm not sure what you mean by the northern comment, though I do think East helps explain some of what is wrong with Elite D: no one from East has played Elite D in the past few years. Apparently the coaching staff doesn't think Elite D is worth their players' time. This is a shame, and it's no wonder they're trying to pack an extra player or two on to Elite League rosters.

4 may be a bit low for a cap for one team--I can think of a few senior classes, like Edina's in 09, that were deep enough to have 5 or so players in the league. But I agree that caps, both on players from a team and on underclassmen, should be on the table.

Another thought that occurred to me: at younger levels, we have no problem with off-season hockey grouped by birth years. Why not have 3 leagues for high schoolers, one each for sophomores, juniors, and seniors? Just an idea.

To go back to the original topic boil it down as simply as possible--whatever its founding idea was, I think there are 3 reasons that have been floated to justify its continued existence:
1. Keeping players from leaving early
2. Giving players more exposure
3. Giving HS players a schedule that is in the ballpark of a junior team in length, so that players may continue to develop and not fall behind those who do choose other development routes

Consensus seems to be that it is struggling on (1), but I still think the league is valuable if it is contributes to (2) and (3). I think it is helping on some level on (2)…as Shinbone noted earlier, there are some players who truly have come on to the radar thanks to the Elite League, but it also seems like we all agree that certain (probably fixable) things are really holding it back from providing the exposure it could.

(3) is tricky. There is a lot of emotion involved (loud cries for freedom and chasing dreams on one side vs. community and loyalty to friends on the other), and anecdotal evidence of successes and failures on both ends (almost always selected by people who already believe one or the other), but until someone really gives this a proper look, we’re all just groping around in the dark.

I think auld skool is dead on to say that the emphasis here should not be on keeping players from leaving early. It should be on providing a hockey opportunity good enough that they don’t feel nearly as compelled to do so in the first place.

[Slap Shot]

Is the exodus to non-h.s. avenues really that much of a greater trend the past several seasons? Even if that's true can we assign the supposed failure of the Elite League's supposed intent as a major catalyst versus other outside influences?

[goldy313]

I think the league kind of morphed from what it was initially intended to do, keep players in high school, into a couple of things....not the least of which is a recruitment tool for some programs. Your chances of making the Elite league from LeSeuer, Waseca, or even a Rochester public school are nil, transfer to EP, Benilde, or STA and you probably get in. The cynic in me says that's intentional.

Maybe more kids are leaving but some are leaving to leagues not as good as the top MSHSL teams; Russel Stover, Tier 3 etc. I think you have to take that into account with the numbers of kids leaving, there are salesmen out there in pay for play leagues and parents buy what they're being sold.

[MNHockeyFan]

Your chances of making the Elite league from LeSeuer, Waseca, or even a Rochester public school are nil, transfer to EP, Benilde, or STA and you probably get in. The cynic in me says that's intentional.

Some schools are able to produce "elite" players only occasionally, and there are some that have never produced a D1-caliber talent. How many players on the schools you mention - if they were to transfer - could even make the varsity of the top teams in the State?

[goldy313]

Your chances of making the Elite league from LeSeuer, Waseca, or even a Rochester public school are nil, transfer to EP, Benilde, or STA and you probably get in. The cynic in me says that's intentional.

Some schools are able to produce "elite" players only occasionally, and there are some that have never produced a D1-caliber talent. How many players on the schools you mention - if they were to transfer - could even make the varsity of the top teams in the State?

Not many would make the top AA teams, but some would and some would be standouts on those teams, not very often but every few years. Rochester is different though because if they could make 2 teams instead of 3 they'd have a top 10 team most years like they did prior to to opening up a 3rd high school (with 2 schools they'd still have less an enrollment than Eastview)

Waseca produced Ryan Hoehn, cut from the Elite League, played in the USHL for 2 years, Rochester public schools have produced numerous D1 kids, Alex Kangas, 2 years in the USHL, 4 year Gopher cut by the Elite League, the goalie in LeSeuer is very, very good, cut from the Elite League. In 2007 Century took 3rd at state, no kids in the Elite League and 2 should have been without a doubt. A kid from Red Wing, wasn't even the best player at Red Wing, transfers to Benilde, makes the Elite League. It's pretty clear that if you're from southern Minnesota you have almost no shot at making an elite league team though Lourdes got 3 this year, which plays into my recruitment to certain schools idea I think the Elite League is fostering.

[almostashappy]

I'm not sure what you mean by the northern comment, though I do think East helps explain some of what is wrong with Elite D: no one from East has played Elite D in the past few years. Apparently the coaching staff doesn't think Elite D is worth their players' time. This is a shame, and it's no wonder they're trying to pack an extra player or two on to Elite League rosters.

What do the East kids do with the time that isn't worth being spent playing D league? Are they all on the football team?

[karl(east)]

I'm not sure what you mean by the northern comment, though I do think East helps explain some of what is wrong with Elite D: no one from East has played Elite D in the past few years. Apparently the coaching staff doesn't think Elite D is worth their players' time. This is a shame, and it's no wonder they're trying to pack an extra player or two on to Elite League rosters.

What do the East kids do with the time that isn't worth being spent playing D league? Are they all on the football team?

A number of players--usually those who are good but not Elite League good--do play fall sports. (This year they have an Elite player who is also the QB of the football team, though.) Beyond that, captain's practices are pretty big at East.

Is the exodus to non-h.s. avenues really that much of a greater trend the past several seasons? Even if that's true can we assign the supposed failure of the Elite League's supposed intent as a major catalyst versus other outside influences?

Number of early departures by year, according to my records, which come from the lists kept on this forum:
07-08: 18
08-09: 17
09-10: 13 (not sure this list is complete)
10-11: 23
11-12: 21
I believe we're in the mid-teens right now for this coming season. So there's been a slight uptick lately, but nothing drastic.

Interesting how we hear that the sky is falling every year, yet players are leaving at roughly the same pace.

I've heard it was worse pre-Elite League but I don't have any numbers to back that up.

[O-townClown]

Number of early departures by year, according to my records, which come from the lists kept on this forum:
07-08: 18
08-09: 17
09-10: 13 (not sure this list is complete)
10-11: 23
11-12: 21
I believe we're in the mid-teens right now for this coming season. So there's been a slight uptick lately, but nothing drastic.

Interesting how we hear that the sky is falling every year, yet players are leaving at roughly the same pace.

I've heard it was worse pre-Elite League but I don't have any numbers to back that up.

I recall Ken Pauly saying in an interview about 4-5 years ago that the numbers (high teens at the time) had come down from mid-40s ten years prior. Interview was with whatever Pete Waggoner was doing at the time. The Stitch?

[shooter803]

I'm not sure what you mean by the northern comment, though I do think East helps explain some of what is wrong with Elite D: no one from East has played Elite D in the past few years. Apparently the coaching staff doesn't think Elite D is worth their players' time. This is a shame, and it's no wonder they're trying to pack an extra player or two on to Elite League rosters.

What do the East kids do with the time that isn't worth being spent playing D league? Are they all on the football team?

I believe it also starts with the Prep league in that none of the players are nominated by Randolph. Not sure of the reasoning other than he runs a camp that skates 3-4 times a week & he is already instilling his system for his future players. But it seems to me if East kids don't get involved/experience the Elite Prep league why would the masses by clamoring to get in down the road. At least this explains the "0" skaters in the prep league, there are definately talanted players that could make the prep team

[mulefarm]

I'm not sure what you mean by the northern comment, though I do think East helps explain some of what is wrong with Elite D: no one from East has played Elite D in the past few years. Apparently the coaching staff doesn't think Elite D is worth their players' time. This is a shame, and it's no wonder they're trying to pack an extra player or two on to Elite League rosters.

What do the East kids do with the time that isn't worth being spent playing D league? Are they all on the football team?

I believe it also starts with the Prep league in that none of the players are nominated by Randolph. Not sure of the reasoning other than he runs a camp that skates 3-4 times a week & he is already instilling his system for his future players. But it seems to me if East kids don't get involved/experience the Elite Prep league why would the masses by clamoring to get in down the road. At least this explains the "0" skaters in the prep league, there are definately talanted players that could make the prep team

Fact or Fiction?

[observer]

I do know that 3 seasons ago several DE players that graduated in the spring, part of a very strong class, did play Elite II.

Two seasons ago the name was changed to Elite D. So, if the DE players no longer participate in Elite D that is new in the past 2 years. I don't think it hurt the 5-6 players that did it 3 season's ago.