If you already won a state title, do you go juniors....

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JSR
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If you already won a state title, do you go juniors....

Post by JSR » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:10 am

I know that winning a high school state title is sort of the "holy grail" in MN hockey culture.

I also know that alot of these kids have big dremas of making it to college and pros

I lastly know that many folks on this message board always say "if the kid is good enough he'll be good enough and you can't get those high school days back so stay and try and win a state title.....yada yada yada"

So I'm fine with all that. My question becomes this though, what about a kid that is good enough to play D1, perhaps already has a scholarship offer as a junior in High School he is that good. He then proceeds to win a state title with his team as a junior. As a senior he is good enough to make a USHL roster and play regular minutes. Should he stay at H.S. or go to the USHL???????

I'm curious if those cricumstances change the minds or opinions of the ones who are admant kids stay in high school? Just curious about opinions on the subject....

I can see both sides. On the one hand you never get high school back again. Playing with your friends, maybe winning another title etc... etc... And if you are on a state title contending team you are playing high quality hockey in H.S. and if your that good youa re probably playing in the Elite League before the season so you are getting good supplemental hockey training. On the flip side neither is as good as the USHL and if you have legit NHL dreams don't you owe it to yourself to do everything possible to make those dreams come true too??? And what about injury, that probably plays a part too..... Tough one, don't think there is a right answer and it's a rare kid who it applies to but it does apply out there so just curious what the thoughts and opinions are....

deacon64
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Post by deacon64 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:16 am

Stay in HS

AverageHockeyJoe
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Stay in HS

Post by AverageHockeyJoe » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:25 am

Definitely stay in HS.

Look at the 8 or so guys who were on the Eden Prairie AA State title team in 2009. In 2011 they all stayed, including a number who could have left. Lightning in a bottle a 2nd time. Granted a very special group of young men. Most schools would have had a number of kids jump. But for that group, who won 2/3 youth titles in PeeWees & Bantams, to go along with their 2 AA HS titles, winning was 2nd nature.

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:00 am

Depends on the kid. I also suppose it depends on the HS team they are on, the NCAA school they committed to, and whether or not he plays a second sport or has a girlfriend.
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JSR
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Post by JSR » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:09 am

O-townClown wrote:Depends on the kid. I also suppose it depends on the HS team they are on, the NCAA school they committed to, and whether or not he plays a second sport or has a girlfriend.
The girldfriend thing is obviously an unknown.. LOL..... but reread my original post and i do clarify the type of team and the type of player. I don't think it's remotely impossible however doesn't it seem unlikely that a kid who is a junior with a scholarship in hand already is a two sport athlete. Seems like that type of kid is probably hockey centric year round by that point. Like I said this is a very very narrow group of players if you really think about it.

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:21 am

JSR:

You describe some of the player's traits, but it really depends on a few others as well. For one, is this a kid that should be moving away from home at age 17 (some can, some may benefit from staying under mom's roof another year)?

The other consideration is what the college coach is telling his recruit. It isn't unusual that a junior is told to get one year of USHL under their belt before college. It could be his senior year of HS or the first year following graduation.
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almostashappy
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Post by almostashappy » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:25 am

I could see a case being made for skipping to juniors, but only if you tightened up the scenario a bit....

It's the summer after a kid won a state title in his junior year of high school. He will be eligible for the NHL draft after the upcoming season. He already has a D1 offer from a program that has him slotted to enroll straight out of high school. He also has been drafted by the USHL, and is pretty sure he'd get plenty of playing time with that team. If he really does have "legit NHL dreams" would his chances of being drafted by an NHL team (or moving up in the draft) improve if he left his high school team and played in the USHL during his senior year?

If the kid really is dreaming big, and thinks he's got what it takes to play in the NHL (and has others in a position to know echoing those thoughts), then maybe he should play Juniors. Because if he stays in school and doesn't get drafted, there will be this big "what if?" in the back of his head. And if he plays juniors senior year and still doesn't get drafted? Well, that would be a pretty good reality check...maybe enough for him to still take the D1 offer and use college for something more than a stepping stone to the pros.

hockeyfan893
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Post by hockeyfan893 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:44 am

Kids should do what they and their families have decided is best, and not be begrudged by anyone one way or the other. People- fans of the game, HS followers - continuously debate this issue like it impacts their livelihood, state of being, or otherwise quality of life. News flash: It doesn't. Unless you are the hockey player or his family, whom the decision affects directly, you should move on and be quiet. What outside observers think is immaterial in a scenario such as this, and as such, debating this issue has been, is now, and will always be nothing more than pointless and stupid.

And I will not feel sorry for the harsh manner in which I approach the morons that go back and forth on this issue. Seriously, move on. Nothing will ever change. Kids will continue to leave, and kids will continue to stay. They aren't bound by any moral sense of obligation to do one or the other. It's a personal issue.

**Steps off my rant box**

Edit: I realize the scope of this thread is a little different than most "Should he stay or should he go" arguments. Thus I respond, if I had won a state title my junior year, I would likely stay for another year simply because I'd like another chance at the experience. That's just me and my hypothetical.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:15 pm

O-townClown wrote:JSR:

You describe some of the player's traits, but it really depends on a few others as well. For one, is this a kid that should be moving away from home at age 17 (some can, some may benefit from staying under mom's roof another year)?

The other consideration is what the college coach is telling his recruit. It isn't unusual that a junior is told to get one year of USHL under their belt before college. It could be his senior year of HS or the first year following graduation.
You're right there is more to it. WIthin your scope I guess it matters what year his D1 offer is for. Like lets say he won a state title as a junior in 2012, he will graduate in spring 2013, and he has a D1 schollie offer but maybe the offer is 2014 meaning the college is saying you have to play a year of juniors after high school no matter what because 2014 is when we have a schollie for you. That kids decision ight be different than the kid who has a school saying, hey if you pay juniors as a senior we have a schollie open for 2013. So yea there is more to it. I also like almosthappy's points about the "what if" factor in regards to draft position etc... though.

I don;t think this is the typical thread about people debating over whether it effects their lives or not. I thought it was an interesting topic. My oldest is only 12 and I live in WI so it doesn't impact me in the least but I see this topic alot on here and I find people thoughts and passions about the topic interesting. thought this would bring an interesting twist to the topic is all

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:04 pm

O-townClown wrote:The other consideration is what the college coach is telling his recruit.
I think this is the MAIN consideration for any kid who has committed and accepted a scholarship from a D1 school.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:28 pm

Here's a list (by no means exhaustive) of star players who could have certainly left for juniors after winning state titles in their junior years (year of state title in parenthesis):

Grant Besse (12): staying; his team is likely to be ranked preseason #1.
Aaron Ness (07): came back, though he did accelerate his class; team went undefeated in the regular season. Stint at U of M not a total success, but he's in the NHL anyway.
Ryan McDonagh (06): stayed; team was good but not great. Seems to have worked out just fine for him.
Pat Finnegan (98): left; team would have been good but probably not quite elite if he'd stayed. Post-HS career fizzled out.
Dave Spehar (95): stayed; his team was the favorite for the title the next year. Post-HS career was underwhelming considering what he did in high school, but the flaws in his game weren't complete secrets.
Mike Crowley (93): came back, won another state title, went on to play parts of 3 seasons in the NHL. I'm sure there's a whole heap of Jefferson players that could be added from this era, too, with varying degrees of post-HS success.

Just looking back through the lists of players who left early, the two Benilde kids who left for the NTDP (neither of whom would be seniors this year) are the first players on a defending state champion to leave since we started keeping records on this forum in 07-08. I can't recall any cases from the years prior, either; maybe a few from Holy Angels to NTDP in the early 00s? But, again, they wouldn't have been rising seniors.

If we include players who won as sophomores, the departures added to the list would be Ben Walker (Edina '10) and Mike Lee (Roseau '07). Lee's team was going to drop off quite a bit in what would have been his senior year; the Walker situation was, I believe, "complicated."

The point here is that players on defending the state champs have, historically, almost never left, and the few who have were on teams that were due for a drop-off. The ones who stayed generally did alright for themselves, too. Amazing how winning can make everything look good...

JSR
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Post by JSR » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:43 am

Nice list Karl, well done and yes it's amazing how "winning" puts a bright sheen on everything doesn't it :D Your list, while you admit not exhaustive, I think does somewhat prove how incredibly small this exact type of pool of players is though.

Hey, not to change the subject but since he's at the top of your list what is the word on Besse's injury, anyone know?

observer
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Post by observer » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:34 am

what is the word on Besse's injury
I read he has a broken leg and will miss the Elite League season at minimum.

ThePuckStopsHere
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Post by ThePuckStopsHere » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:02 am

observer wrote:
what is the word on Besse's injury
I read he has a broken leg and will miss the Elite League season at minimum.
Heard the same thing, looks like SlickPaulyWally needs to hit the recruiting streets again. :P :P

Watch out Edina, Wayzata, EP, Etc, he is lurking :cry:

almostashappy
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Post by almostashappy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:10 pm

karl(east) wrote: The point here is that players on defending the state champs have, historically, almost never left, and the few who have were on teams that were due for a drop-off. The ones who stayed generally did alright for themselves, too. Amazing how winning can make everything look good...
Thanks for the historical perspective, Karl.

I suspect that this scenario was set up to accommodate (or work around) the idea that every MN high school player's ultimate goal is to get to St. Paul and win a state title. Also the argument that it would be ill advised/silly/insane for a kid to jump to juniors if he's on a high school team that might realize that dream.

But I still wonder, if it really was an either/or question....

Force 100 Minnesota high school hockey players to pick between either winning State or getting picked in the NHL draft. How many would choose individual glory over team glory?

hockeyfan893
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Post by hockeyfan893 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:37 pm

In response to the most recent question, winning State or getting picked in the NHL draft, any player in their right mind would choose the NHL draft. Frankly, I believe everyone would. Anyone who tries to bring up any garbage about the team camaraderie and experience of winning State trumping personal gain is kidding themselves.

A pick in the NHL draft means an opportunity to make your career playing hockey. In some cases, it would mean long term financial security for their own lives, and in rarer cases, financial security for one's family for generations.

Please, what a silly question. That's like asking a high school Debater what he wants, to win State with his forensics squad, or get into Harvard Law school. There's only one right answer.

almostashappy
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Post by almostashappy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:17 pm

hockeyfan893 wrote:In response to the most recent question, winning State or getting picked in the NHL draft, any player in their right mind would choose the NHL draft. Frankly, I believe everyone would. Anyone who tries to bring up any garbage about the team camaraderie and experience of winning State trumping personal gain is kidding themselves.

A pick in the NHL draft means an opportunity to make your career playing hockey. In some cases, it would mean long term financial security for their own lives, and in rarer cases, financial security for one's family for generations.

Please, what a silly question. That's like asking a high school Debater what he wants, to win State with his forensics squad, or get into Harvard Law school. There's only one right answer.
So every player who gets drafted ends up in the NHL? And only those players who get drafted have "an opportunity to make your career playing hockey?"

Why don't we ask Dino Ciccarelli, Curtis Joseph, Adam Oates, Martin St Louis, Ed Balfour, Pasqal Dupuis, Dan Girardi, Niklas Backstrum....

auld_skool
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Post by auld_skool » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:22 pm

If the athlete already has a college commitment, I see almost no reason to leave early.

hockeyfan893
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Post by hockeyfan893 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:01 pm

@Almost

Don't mince my words. Not once did I explicitly say, or imply, that only drafted players have the opportunity to play hockey. You did however, do an excellent job of twisting my quote out of context.

But answer me this. If you intend to play in the NHL, if that's the pinnacle of a hockey career, would you rather get drafted or go undrafted?

How many players thought processes are "You know what, screw being drafted. I'm going to try and make it as an undrafted player instead because, well, that's a MUCH better route to the pros." Honestly, that's moronic.

Nice list, but for every top-tier NHL player you name that went undrafted, I could name two+ that did get drafted. Again, moot point.

Curious though, what's your response to your own question? State or NHL pick?

almostashappy
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Post by almostashappy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:46 pm

hockeyfan893 wrote:@Almost

Don't mince my words. Not once did I explicitly say, or imply, that only drafted players have the opportunity to play hockey. You did however, do an excellent job of twisting my quote out of context.

But answer me this. If you intend to play in the NHL, if that's the pinnacle of a hockey career, would you rather get drafted or go undrafted?

How many players thought processes are "You know what, screw being drafted. I'm going to try and make it as an undrafted player instead because, well, that's a MUCH better route to the pros." Honestly, that's moronic.

Nice list, but for every top-tier NHL player you name that went undrafted, I could name two+ that did get drafted. Again, moot point.

Curious though, what's your response to your own question? State or NHL pick?
Classy response...almost as snippy and caustic as your first comment.

The either/or question was intentionally provocative, extreme and unrealistic. I was trying to distil the issue down to the starkest elements to see if anyone would still want to argue that winning a State title means (literally) everything.

Real life is muddier. Skipping a senior year season to play in the USHL isn't guaranteed to improve your chances of being drafted. Staying in school and going undrafted doesn't completely shut the door, though, either. And then there is the imperfect nature of both our opinions of ourselves (or our kids), and the occasionally incredulous draft process itself.

But if it really was one or the other and I really, really wanted to play in the NHL? Then of course I'd rather be drafted, since it is a far easier pathway to the pros than looking to sign on as a free agent.

hockeyfan893
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Post by hockeyfan893 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Almost-

Understood, on all counts. Thank you for the discourse.

hshockeyfan8
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Post by hshockeyfan8 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:35 pm

ThePuckStopsHere wrote:
observer wrote:
what is the word on Besse's injury
I read he has a broken leg and will miss the Elite League season at minimum.
Heard the same thing, looks like SlickPaulyWally needs to hit the recruiting streets again. :P :P

Watch out Edina, Wayzata, EP, Etc, he is lurking :cry:
I heard he is out only 6-8 weeks

Wside
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Besse

Post by Wside » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:08 pm

He is estimated to be out 4-6 weeks.

spectatorfun
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Post by spectatorfun » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:43 pm

Kinda weird that Besse, Lucia, and Opperman are out this fall with injuries. They all played on a line as bantams...bad luck...wish them all quick recoveries

auld_skool
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Post by auld_skool » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:31 am

hockeyfan893 wrote:@Almost

Don't mince my words. Not once did I explicitly say, or imply, that only drafted players have the opportunity to play hockey. You did however, do an excellent job of twisting my quote out of context.

But answer me this. If you intend to play in the NHL, if that's the pinnacle of a hockey career, would you rather get drafted or go undrafted?

How many players thought processes are "You know what, screw being drafted. I'm going to try and make it as an undrafted player instead because, well, that's a MUCH better route to the pros." Honestly, that's moronic.

Nice list, but for every top-tier NHL player you name that went undrafted, I could name two+ that did get drafted. Again, moot point.

Curious though, what's your response to your own question? State or NHL pick?
If your goal is to play in the NHL there's some evidence to suggest that if you don't go in the higher rounds it might be better to go undrafted and then be a free agent in college. Mainly to avoid being "stuck" in the system of a club that's deep at your position. Of course for any young athlete the thrill of being drafted would out weigh that.

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