St. Thomas AA?

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

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BlueLineSpecial
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Post by BlueLineSpecial » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:54 pm

TheClipper wrote:karl(east)"]I sure wasn't expecting this. Congrats to the STA administration for finally realizing that all this negative publicity probably wasn't a good thing.

Negative publicity?

Yes. Let's look at the many ways STA has suffered ill public opinion:

....year after year of enrollments right at physical capacity.

....formidable academic requirements and required public service projects.

....an extensive local and national network of business and public service leaders.

....an 18 million dollar improvement campaign nearing completion. This will augment existing facilities that include: a swimming pool, indoor hockey rink, and a domed, turfed multiple-sport facility.

....consistently dominant programs in swimming, cross country and football.

...a steady stream of brilliant scholars, musicians, and athletes enrolling in world class postsecondary institutions.


My, how the Cadet community has suffered negative publicity.
Pretty sure he meant negative publicity from fans in the Minnesota hockey community and not in general. In fact, most of the points that you bring up (dominant athletic programs, steady stream of brilliant athletes, multi-million dollar improvement campaign including a hockey rink) simply strengthen the argument to play the best and not dominate a class primarily reserved for small schools that don't have all the advantages you listed. But, solid rant :roll:

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:15 pm

rainier wrote:Speaking about private schools opting up to AA seems right on topic to me, sherlock.

You're confused. :?
Don't have to get snarky with name calling haha, just trying to help you find your way! :lol:

TheClipper
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Post by TheClipper » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:37 pm

BlueLineSpecial,

I'll wait and see if Karl has anything to add, but you didn't add anything to the discussion.

Your distinction as to the source of "negative publicity" does nothing to identify any tangible effect it might have. You spoke for Karl and clarified nothing.

As to my points actually supporting the argument for STA's move to AA? Maybe, but that's your conclusion. Nowhere, nowhere, do I say they should
or shouldn't move up. All points listed are facts about STA. These represent a reality that exists blissfully unaffected by bad publicity originating from opinions of private school hockey-phobes.

BlueLineSpecial
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Post by BlueLineSpecial » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:22 pm

TheClipper wrote:BlueLineSpecial,

I'll wait and see if Karl has anything to add, but you didn't add anything to the discussion.

Your distinction as to the source of "negative publicity" does nothing to identify any tangible effect it might have. You spoke for Karl and clarified nothing.

As to my points actually supporting the argument for STA's move to AA? Maybe, but that's your conclusion. Nowhere, nowhere, do I say they should
or shouldn't move up. All points listed are facts about STA. These represent a reality that exists blissfully unaffected by bad publicity originating from opinions of private school hockey-phobes.
You worked really hard on that response, didn't you. Awww, thats cute

rainier
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Post by rainier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:28 pm

TheClipper wrote:karl(east)"]I sure wasn't expecting this. Congrats to the STA administration for finally realizing that all this negative publicity probably wasn't a good thing.

Negative publicity?

Yes. Let's look at the many ways STA has suffered ill public opinion:

....year after year of enrollments right at physical capacity.

....formidable academic requirements and required public service projects.

....an extensive local and national network of business and public service leaders.

....an 18 million dollar improvement campaign nearing completion. This will augment existing facilities that include: a swimming pool, indoor hockey rink, and a domed, turfed multiple-sport facility.

....consistently dominant programs in swimming, cross country and football.

...a steady stream of brilliant scholars, musicians, and athletes enrolling in world class postsecondary institutions.


My, how the Cadet community has suffered negative publicity.
Wow! Wait, no one cares.

Public schools are putting plenty of kids in top universities, winning multiple sports titles, building new facilities, etc. The difference is that these schools don't feel the need to pat themselves on the back while bragging to everyone within earshot. It is this type of braggadocio and self importance that makes it clear why it took so long for STA to opt up. It is more important to pad their record for bragging and marketing purposes than it is to follow an code of ethics.

Get a grip.

karl(east)
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Post by karl(east) » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:16 pm

TheClipper wrote:BlueLineSpecial,

I'll wait and see if Karl has anything to add, but you didn't add anything to the discussion.

Your distinction as to the source of "negative publicity" does nothing to identify any tangible effect it might have. You spoke for Karl and clarified nothing.

As to my points actually supporting the argument for STA's move to AA? Maybe, but that's your conclusion. Nowhere, nowhere, do I say they should
or shouldn't move up. All points listed are facts about STA. These represent a reality that exists blissfully unaffected by bad publicity originating from opinions of private school hockey-phobes.
Poor word choice on my part, I suppose. I'd hope no one is naive enough to believe that some people's anger over the number of As after a school's name (particularly a school with as unique an identity as STA's) would have tangible effects on enrollment or fundraising capability.

Instead, let's say that all of the "challenges to STA's integrity" can't be a good thing. No, they probably won't impact the operations of the school. But this is a school that claims to hold itself to a very high standard. In fact, their stated justification for not opting up for so long was the unique STA identity--an identity that took a stance claiming that no sport should get extra attention or favorable treatment, because the school had a higher mission.

In my mind, this is actually quite admirable. I defended STA on this forum a few years back because of it. But the thing is, it happened anyway. STA hockey just became too big for Class A. It resulted in unfortunate incidents that never should have occurred, like Greg Vannelli being forced to defend a decision he disagreed with--as I understand it, the Vannellis have wanted to opt up for some time. Instead, the poor coach had to toe the party line and mumble nonsense about how "emotionally drained" the team was, and how this somehow justified their presence in Class A. Nor did he appear very sincere in saying things like "I know we're where we belong" and "it's not like we have stars." (These quotes come directly from the press conference after last season's tournament.) When the team's coach has to say such things, something is wrong. The contortions he had to make are not befitting of a school that aims to be as exceptional as STA does. I'm glad the administration recognized that.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:26 pm

OK, folks, it's over - let it go! People who have whined about STA not opting up should now be dancing in their snow boots.

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:OK, folks, it's over - let it go! People who have whined about STA not opting up should now be dancing in their snow boots.
Or finding a new thing to whine about. :wink:

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Post by HShockeywatcher » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:52 pm

rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.

Private schools should have the deck stacked against them; parents have to pay for the kid to attend, plus they get kids who have played together all their lives from different systems and have to put them together. Whether the sport is hockey, football, basketball or another, the idea that public schools can't attract students for various reasons is odd.

There are communities in MN, and all around the country, who thrive because of their community involvement and what the community invests in and in most of them, a local private school wouldn't change that. There are plenty of communities we all know about like this in MN.

No one on this board in the last few years has defended St Thomas for not opting up because they didn't want them to. I haven't. Being an alumnus it may have come off that way (despite clearly saying many times I wanted them up for many reasons), but that was never my intention. So, please don't bring that up.

There have been multiple public schools who have done well in the small school class and been applauded. Discussions like "best regardless of class" have taken place.
There have been many bad private schools who were never talked down about. Even when Breck was pretty good, or when Totino won in 2002 then lost to Warroad in 2005 all the talk was about how good they were, nothing else.
As karl pointed out, one school has gotten good and stayed good like no private school has before in this class. They aren't talked about because they're private, or simply because they're good, but because they have sustained success.

I'm glad to see them up, but it'll also be interesting to see what happens in the class in the next couple years.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:They aren't talked about because they're private, or simply because they're good, but because they have sustained success.
This pretty much explains all of the whining.

For example, you don't hear any complaining about Providence Academy, but if they were to ever start dominating Class A they would become the target. But since they're currently just average, no problem.

DubCHAGuy
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Post by DubCHAGuy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:30 pm

MNHockeyFan wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:They aren't talked about because they're private, or simply because they're good, but because they have sustained success.
This pretty much explains all of the whining.

For example, you don't hear any complaining about Providence Academy, but if they were to ever start dominating Class A they would become the target. But since they're currently just average, no problem.
Yes. If Providence is bad for a few decades, with only an occasional above average year, then hires a new coach who is a fixture at Bantam games in the district, builds a new arena, and in 2 years go from 3 win team to state tournament regulars and 4 time class A champion, people will probably be suspicious. :roll:

I personally like watching good public schools and good private schools, including STA, but lets face it they are a hockey school now and belong in AA where people can hate them for all the right reasons.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:48 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.


You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

rainier wrote:You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there?
Do people move to Warroad to be on the swim team?

analogkid
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Post by analogkid » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:40 pm

rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.


You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Your point that families are unlikely to move into a rural community is well stated and spot-on, however, parents who transfer their student into any school, public or private, are required by MSHSL rules to move out of their previous district if their child is in 10th grade or above. There are no exceptions, and they cannot use their previous home for any reason during the time their student is enrolled in their new school.

HockeySLP
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Post by HockeySLP » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:34 pm

analogkid wrote:
rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.


You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Your point that families are unlikely to move into a rural community is well stated and spot-on, however, parents who transfer their student into any school, public or private, are required by MSHSL rules to move out of their previous district if their child is in 10th grade or above. There are no exceptions, and they cannot use their previous home for any reason during the time their student is enrolled in their new school.[/quote]

And who is keeping track of that? Does the MSHSL have spys driving through the old neighborhood making sure the transfer students family is not using their other house, I think not.

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:00 pm

HockeySLP wrote:And who is keeping track of that? Does the MSHSL have spys driving through the old neighborhood making sure the transfer students family is not using their other house, I think not.
It is up to each school, led by their AD, to verify the eligibility of their athletes. When a school is found to have played an athlete who was not eligible, and this is confirmed, the MSHSL can make that school forfeit the games in which ineligible players participated.

This happened this past fall in both boys football and soccer. I have not heard of any recent situations involving boys or girls hockey.

HawkeyPower
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Post by HawkeyPower » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:10 pm

analogkid wrote:
rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.


You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Your point that families are unlikely to move into a rural community is well stated and spot-on, however, parents who transfer their student into any school, public or private, are required by MSHSL rules to move out of their previous district if their child is in 10th grade or above. There are no exceptions, and they cannot use their previous home for any reason during the time their student is enrolled in their new school.
All good points, but there are many Private Schools that lie within the District boundaries of Public Schools, so you are not moving Districts. Duluth Marshall will draw from two High Schools in Duluth, SCC will draw from 2 schools in St. Cloud as an example.

analogkid
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Post by analogkid » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:11 pm

HawkeyPower wrote:
analogkid wrote:
rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.


You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Your point that families are unlikely to move into a rural community is well stated and spot-on, however, parents who transfer their student into any school, public or private, are required by MSHSL rules to move out of their previous district if their child is in 10th grade or above. There are no exceptions, and they cannot use their previous home for any reason during the time their student is enrolled in their new school.
All good points, but there are many Private Schools that lie within the District boundaries of Public Schools, so you are not moving Districts. Duluth Marshall will draw from two High Schools in Duluth, SCC will draw from 2 schools in St. Cloud as an example.
A student who transfers to a private school after 9th grade has to move out of the school district he lived in to be eligible to play. For example, a player living in Duluth and playing at East or Denfeld has to move out of the Duluth school district in order to play at Marshall. There is no "end run" around the residency rule for private schools.

thestickler07
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Post by thestickler07 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Can we just post the MSHSL rule book and make it required reading for the board?

:roll:

HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 pm

thestickler07 wrote:Can we just post the MSHSL rule book and make it required reading for the board?

:roll:
Wish there was a like button on this site!
rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.
You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Do you think everyone on the (insert successful small town here) roster was born and raised in the city limits?

I'm not trying to argue with you by any means. I have lived in both big cities and small towns in MN and other parts of the country and have ties to both. I have seen in many situations, in many sports communities/areas draw kids for many different reasons.

Similarly, the "easier" the metro schools have it shouldn't be the case as they should be competing with all of the metro schools for those kids. People talk so much about how private schools are able to "hand pick" the kids they want. Ignoring that it's simply not true, why isn't anyone pointing any finger at the place they were "hand picked" from?

My "gripe" isn't with any specific school or community, it is simply with the attitude that communities can't compete; it's not true and they know it. Small towns around the state and country compete with bigger programs all the time in a multitude of sports. There are also public school programs around the state that, yes, people do move across the country or state to be a part of. Hockey and others.

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over when we are both discussing solutions to the same problems, while yours involve the blame game and mine involve the take responsibility game, or you can listen and maybe learn a thing or two from others.

This quote can be applied to both public and private programs in all sorts of different extra-curricular activities:
oldschoolpuckster wrote:I am tired of hearing about Private School recruting...it is the easy way to be a hater and it's pure B.S.!!! Great programs draw great players, period!!
In conclusion:
Hockey North wrote:Rainier, your a dope. You have no clue on whats going on with anything outside of Hibbing.

rainier
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Post by rainier » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:20 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:

!
rainier wrote:
HShockeywatcher wrote:
rainier wrote:Regardless of where the players come from or why they choose a school, private school teams in large cities should all be in AA. They are able to easily draw from huge talent pools, something the other 90% of A schools cannot do.
Why not? Every school, public and private, play by the same transfer rules now. I haven't understood, and still don't understand, why you seem to think there are so many communities that can't attract people to come to their communities.
You think people are going to move to Thief River Falls, Hibbing, or Little Falls just so their kids can play hockey there? You're right, people can transfer to these public schools just as they can to the privates, but in big cities it is orders of magnitude easier for schools to get kids from other schools to transfer.

You are missing the point. Big cities have huge pools of talent, small communities do not, and kids can move around to different schools easily in the big cities because they can do so without moving or their parents having to find new jobs. Conversely, transferring to TRF, which is in the middle of nowhere, means moving your entire family. If parents had to move to a new house and get new jobs in order to send their kids to STA, you'd see enrollment take a huge dive.

In theory you are right. In reality you couldn't be more wrong.
Do you think everyone on the (insert successful small town here) roster was born and raised in the city limits?

I'm not trying to argue with you by any means.
I have lived in both big cities and small towns in MN and other parts of the country and have ties to both. I have seen in many situations, in many sports communities/areas draw kids for many different reasons.

Similarly, the "easier" the metro schools have it shouldn't be the case as they should be competing with all of the metro schools for those kids. People talk so much about how private schools are able to "hand pick" the kids they want. Ignoring that it's simply not true, why isn't anyone pointing any finger at the place they were "hand picked" from?

My "gripe" isn't with any specific school or community, it is simply with the attitude that communities can't compete; it's not true and they know it. Small towns around the state and country compete with bigger programs all the time in a multitude of sports. There are also public school programs around the state that, yes, people do move across the country or state to be a part of. Hockey and others.

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over when we are both discussing solutions to the same problems, while yours involve the blame game and mine involve the take responsibility game, or you can listen and maybe learn a thing or two from others.


You're right, Eveleth-Gilbert and STA have the exact same ability to be top hockey programs, thus E-G should also opt up. There is no difference between these two schools whatsoever and they play by the same rules, so opting up is the only way to go for the Golden Bears. They must take responsibility for their success and once they do they will be in the Class AA title game in no time.

I know the kids at E-G want to move up, but the darn administrators refuse to play in the class they belong. If only they would read HSHW's posts of absolute truth then they would know they have just as much chance as STA, Tonka, or East does at being the best in AA.

And to make it worse, I think a kid from Babbitt just transferred there only to play hockey. For shame. Opt up Eveleth, before Lou Nanne publicly calls you out on it also.

:D

pekyman
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Post by pekyman » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:49 pm

STA beats #2 ranked AA HM 2-1. Bet they wish they could go to AA this year.

hockeymannorth
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Post by hockeymannorth » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:37 pm

i know several kids that got free rides at STA and Hill for hockey let them go more room for others to play HS hockey

starmvp
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Post by starmvp » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:05 pm

pekyman wrote:STA beats #2 ranked AA HM 2-1. Bet they wish they could go to AA this year.
Not much different in previous years. They lost to Hill at the beginning of last season 2-1 (they also lost 5-2). They just about beat Edina last year as well...

starmvp
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Post by starmvp » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:05 pm

hockeymannorth wrote:i know several kids that got free rides at STA and Hill for hockey let them go more room for others to play HS hockey
What??

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