Referee change in this year's Tourney

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gopher16
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Referee change in this year's Tourney

Post by gopher16 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:15 pm

Having officiated girls hockey for 10 years, I have learned an interesting format change for this year's Tourney. Some of my comrades that are officiating at the X this year have told me that in addition to the boys tournament using 4 officials this year (2 ref, 2 lines) the girls are doing the same. This will definitely take some getting used to, as all officials will have to learn on their own the placements on the ice. Is this too many officials for the girls level? My inclination would be to say yes, but I am interested in what others think.

ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Wow - 4 for Girls... I think we had 2 only for our Classic Sub Conf. games... although many other confs have 3...

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:23 am

ghshockeyfan wrote:Wow - 4 for Girls... I think we had 2 only for our Classic Sub Conf. games... although many other confs have 3...
My personal opinion: for girls high school hockey, assuming they're qualified, three is enough to get the job done.

mnreferee1
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Post by mnreferee1 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:34 pm

The rational is so that there is complete coverage on all the lines. This would include the goal line, which in the current system is sometimes missed because the ref is following play. The 2-2 will allow the two refs to always in be in front of the play coming into the zone. The refs will also have no Offsides or icing responsibility. Those will be the sole responsibility of the two linesmen.

Joethehockeydad
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Post by Joethehockeydad » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:09 pm

Makes sense, especially with the possibility of controversial goals as evidenced in this forum. Thanks for the rationale input.
mnreferee1 wrote:The rational is so that there is complete coverage on all the lines. This would include the goal line, which in the current system is sometimes missed because the ref is following play. The 2-2 will allow the two refs to always in be in front of the play coming into the zone. The refs will also have no Offsides or icing responsibility. Those will be the sole responsibility of the two linesmen.

hockeya1a
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Post by hockeya1a » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:15 pm

Joethehockeydad wrote:Makes sense, especially with the possibility of controversial goals as evidenced in this forum. Thanks for the rational input.
mnreferee1 wrote:The rational is so that there is complete coverage on all the lines. This would include the goal line, which in the current system is sometimes missed because the ref is following play. The 2-2 will allow the two refs to always in be in front of the play coming into the zone. The refs will also have no Offsides or icing responsibility. Those will be the sole responsibility of the two linesmen.
I would rather have three on ice and one person on each end in the red light box they have as good of a view as anyone. plus they would not be in the way.

northshore guy
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Post by northshore guy » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:23 am

hockeya1a wrote:
Joethehockeydad wrote:Makes sense, especially with the possibility of controversial goals as evidenced in this forum. Thanks for the rational input.
mnreferee1 wrote:The rational is so that there is complete coverage on all the lines. This would include the goal line, which in the current system is sometimes missed because the ref is following play. The 2-2 will allow the two refs to always in be in front of the play coming into the zone. The refs will also have no Offsides or icing responsibility. Those will be the sole responsibility of the two linesmen.
I would rather have three on ice and one person on each end in the red light box they have as good of a view as anyone. plus they would not be in the way.
I agree... put goal judges out there and have 3 on the ice. IMO there are enought people getting in the way of dumps and chips as it is now. 1 more official causes even more problems.

royals dad
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Post by royals dad » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:56 pm

I hope they don't wait until the tourney to give the refs a chance to practice this. It would be a shame if they need to get used to this on the job at the x. They should do 5 to 10 games before the tourney.

I have seen it in baseball and softball where you get to a championship round and the put a second or third ump out there, everyone trips over each other for a couple games before they get into the groove. With how hard these girls work to get there would be a shame if this becomes a the story.

hockeya1a
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Post by hockeya1a » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:33 pm

royals dad wrote:I hope they don't wait until the tourney to give the refs a chance to practice this. It would be a shame if they need to get used to this on the job at the x. They should do 5 to 10 games before the tourney.

I have seen it in baseball and softball where you get to a championship round and the put a second or third ump out there, everyone trips over each other for a couple games before they get into the groove. With how hard these girls work to get there would be a shame if this becomes a the story.
I agree 100% if they are going to try this it should be done early in the season.
But 3 is still plenty on the ice 4 would be overkill. I still say all we need is someone behind the glass on each end.

Too often with three refs in the game it seems like too many on the ice. But three is necessary that is why I think 4 is overkill.
having 4 refs is almost like puting another team out there. Not good but that is just my opinion

mnreferee1
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Post by mnreferee1 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:42 pm

For all those concerned about having goal judges, they have always been used and will be used this year as well. Goal judges "assist" the referees and are not the deciding factor on a goal. The on ice officials make that determination. Just because the light does on does not mean it's a goal and vice versa just because the light didn't go on doesn't mean it wasn't a goal. instant replay is also used to assist the on ice officials on goals.

As for too many officials on the ice, the 2-2 system actually allows for less opportunity to interfere with play as the two referees no longer have any line responsibility. The 2-2 system generally will have all of the players between the tow referees instead of the Referee being stuck in the middle of a bunch of players. They are also free to transition behind the net to avoid play which is not generally done in the current 2-1 system.

The transition from 2-1 to 2-2 is not that difficult that a lengthy learning process is needed. The mechanics are basically the same. The main difference is that the stripes do not have line responsibility. Aside from that it is pretty much the same but allows for better overall coverage of the game. If it didn't make sense to do it the WCHA and NHL would have never gone to it.

Having said all of that I do not think it is a system that is needed or should be adopted for regular season play as it costs more money to put another official on the ice and we don't need to be raising fees any more if possible. For the state tourney I think the players deserve the best officials and the best system to allow the teams to be the show and not the officials.

inthestands
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Post by inthestands » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:39 am

Although it will help with goal line calls, which is probably the biggest reason for the change it will not remove the possibility of contraversal goals.

Goal judges help, no blue line or icing responsibility will help, but overall those situations where an official is blocked from play and the goal judge isn't paying attention are going to continue.

Hopefully the 2-2 will be an asset, not a hinderence to play.

DHMN
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Post by DHMN » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:26 pm

Some of you from the USCHO board will know my opinion of the 2x2 officiating.. but anyway.. to all of a sudden throw it in for the high school tournament without the referees using it during the season is nuts...inconsistencies as well as problems with positioning require it be used in games during the season as a learning tool for tourney referees.

You can say the transition isn't that difficult, but if they haven't done it they won't be in position to watch what they're supposed to, when they're supposed to.

In basketball, the 3 (rather than 2) officials system is often used now at the 9th and JV levels to train officials for upcoming playoffs.

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Post by MNHockeyFan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:22 pm

DHMN wrote:Some of you from the USCHO board will know my opinion of the 2x2 officiating.. but anyway.. to all of a sudden throw it in for the high school tournament without the referees using it during the season is nuts...inconsistencies as well as problems with positioning require it be used in games during the season as a learning tool for tourney referees.

You can say the transition isn't that difficult, but if they haven't done it they won't be in position to watch what they're supposed to, when they're supposed to.

In basketball, the 3 (rather than 2) officials system is often used now at the 9th and JV levels to train officials for upcoming playoffs.
I spoke to a seasoned referred, who I happened to know from when we both worked together a number of years ago, and he totally agreed with you on this. For this particular game they used only two refs, whereas some conferences/games they use three, and now in the State Tournament they're going to use four. He was of the opinion that they should establish some consistency for all high school games, and then stick with it. The way it is now, the roles/positioning of each referee/linesman change with each game, depending on how many are used. The referee's job is hard enough as it is and this only makes it that much more difficult.

mnreferee1
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Post by mnreferee1 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:03 pm

I work three systems today, 2 man, 1-2, and 2-1. The 2-1 has two different positioning systems so that leaves me with four systems I need to know. I have been selected to officiate the Girls State Tournament so now I have a fifth system to learn. Sounds daunting doesn't it? Well it isn't. Yes there are different responsibilities with each system however they are not vastly different and only have subtle variations between them.

The 2-2 is by far the simplest of the systems which allows for better overall coverage of the game. As I stated in earlier posts, the Stripes will not have any lines responsibilities so they will not get caught with their eyes down as play crosses into a zone. As many of you know, several hooks, holds , and interferences can get missed as they occur at the blue line because the Stripe at times has to make an offsides call. Two linesman will result in better line coverage and leave the Stripes to monitor play instead of the lines.

I understand that individuals who do not officiate can look at this from the outside and question the logic, however you have to trust that the individuals selected to officiate the tourney can adapt to this minor change. The change is not a big deal for me and I will be the one out there.

Stillh2ofan
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Post by Stillh2ofan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:07 pm

inthestands wrote:Although it will help with goal line calls, which is probably the biggest reason for the change it will not remove the possibility of contraversal goals.

Goal judges help, no blue line or icing responsibility will help, but overall those situations where an official is blocked from play and the goal judge isn't paying attention are going to continue.

Hopefully the 2-2 will be an asset, not a hinderence to play.

I belive they use instant replay in the State Tournament and review all
questionable goals.

gopher16
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Referee Change in Girls tourney

Post by gopher16 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:09 pm

The instant replay used at the state tourney overturned a North Metro goal 2 years ago vs. Stillwater that would have counted under normal circumstances. It was impossible to see during play, and only with the slo-mo camera, at the right angle nonetheless, were you able to see it went in off a skate. This specific situation wouldn't have changed this year anyways with the extra official on the ice. And that is why goal judges, and instant replay, are still valuable. So to say the referees will have any easier time time on goals is most likely not true. What they can focus on now is the play and flow of the game and not have to worry about line calls and icings.

ref101
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Referee Change in Girls tourney

Post by ref101 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:11 am

I assume these teams get to the Tourney by somebody getting something right....?
Let's see...
regular season - 2/3 person officiating, no video replay, no goal judges
section playoff - 2/3 person officiating, no video replay, no/maybe goal judges
state tourney - 4 person officiating, video replay, goal judges

God, I hope someone get's it right....?

drop the puck
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Post by drop the puck » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:56 am

3 is certainly enough if there are goal judges in place.

No offense to these competitive young ladies, but the speed of the game does not require 2 refs. The referee hired to officiate the high school tournament games should be best in class.

inthestands
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Post by inthestands » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:35 pm

It doesn't matter how many officials are on the ice. There will always questions from people that have a vested interest in the outcome.

Even those that don't will not always agree with the calls or non calls made on ice.

The professional level events have given an unrealistic expectation to everyone. When you have "people" making the calls, other "people" will see things differently.

That is what keeps things interesting. That said, if the 4 officials can keep out of each others way, it should work good.

ref101
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referee's 4-person

Post by ref101 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:06 am

inthestands wrote:It doesn't matter how many officials are on the ice. There will always questions from people that have a vested interest in the outcome.

Even those that don't will not always agree with the calls or non calls made on ice.

The professional level events have given an unrealistic expectation to everyone. When you have "people" making the calls, other "people" will see things differently.

That is what keeps things interesting. That said, if the 4 officials can keep out of each others way, it should work good.

WELL????

joehockey
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Post by joehockey » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:15 am

I thought the games were well done. I was a little surprised watching on TV the number of goal reviews and on Friday afternoon 3 goal reversals that the TV crew all had wrong.

hockeya1a
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Re: referee's 4-person

Post by hockeya1a » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:21 am

ref101 wrote:
inthestands wrote:It doesn't matter how many officials are on the ice. There will always questions from people that have a vested interest in the outcome.

Even those that don't will not always agree with the calls or non calls made on ice.

The professional level events have given an unrealistic expectation to everyone. When you have "people" making the calls, other "people" will see things differently.

That is what keeps things interesting. That said, if the 4 officials can keep out of each others way, it should work good.

WELL????
I am not sure that the 4 was any better they were still in the way.
on several plays and on other calls around the net the ref on the backside was whisling the play dead when the ref on the front could see the puck was still free. I think it would be a great help if the refs would even use hand signals to communicate with each other when the play is at the net,
if one looses site but has a bad angle the other ref could have a better angle and might see the puck maybe they could use an open hand as a signal that the puck is free and a closed fist if they cannot see it. just asd a quick signal.

ref101
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Re: referee's 4-person

Post by ref101 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:57 pm

hockeya1a wrote:
ref101 wrote:
inthestands wrote:It doesn't matter how many officials are on the ice. There will always questions from people that have a vested interest in the outcome.

Even those that don't will not always agree with the calls or non calls made on ice.

The professional level events have given an unrealistic expectation to everyone. When you have "people" making the calls, other "people" will see things differently.

That is what keeps things interesting. That said, if the 4 officials can keep out of each others way, it should work good.

WELL????
I am not sure that the 4 was any better they were still in the way.
on several plays and on other calls around the net the ref on the backside was whisling the play dead when the ref on the front could see the puck was still free. I think it would be a great help if the refs would even use hand signals to communicate with each other when the play is at the net,
if one looses site but has a bad angle the other ref could have a better angle and might see the puck maybe they could use an open hand as a signal that the puck is free and a closed fist if they cannot see it. just asd a quick signal.
Couple of issues with your thoughts....
-there are no "frontside/backside ref's". one referee is deep in the attacking zone and one referee in the neutral zone near the blue line. the inside referee has responsibility for the puck. once the inside referee looses sight of the puck, play is dead. if the outside referee starts blowing the play dead around the net, he might be looking for a new hobby!
-no hand signals. the inside referee is not going to start looking at the blue line for a signal when the puck is around the net. things are happening way to fast and thats the last place to be looking...

hockeya1a
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Re: referee's 4-person

Post by hockeya1a » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:54 pm

ref101 wrote:
hockeya1a wrote:
ref101 wrote:
inthestands wrote:It doesn't matter how many officials are on the ice. There will always questions from people that have a vested interest in the outcome.

Even those that don't will not always agree with the calls or non calls made on ice.

The professional level events have given an unrealistic expectation to everyone. When you have "people" making the calls, other "people" will see things differently.

That is what keeps things interesting. That said, if the 4 officials can keep out of each others way, it should work good.

WELL????
I am not sure that the 4 was any better they were still in the way.
on several plays and on other calls around the net the ref on the backside was whisling the play dead when the ref on the front could see the puck was still free. I think it would be a great help if the refs would even use hand signals to communicate with each other when the play is at the net,
if one looses site but has a bad angle the other ref could have a better angle and might see the puck maybe they could use an open hand as a signal that the puck is free and a closed fist if they cannot see it. just asd a quick signal.
Couple of issues with your thoughts....
-there are no "frontside/backside ref's". one referee is deep in the attacking zone and one referee in the neutral zone near the blue line. the inside referee has responsibility for the puck. once the inside referee looses sight of the puck, play is dead. if the outside referee starts blowing the play dead around the net, he might be looking for a new hobby!
-no hand signals. the inside referee is not going to start looking at the blue line for a signal when the puck is around the net. things are happening way to fast and thats the last place to be looking...
Are you refering to 3 ref or 4 ref or is it the same on position?, and if that is the case what are the other two's resposibilities,
is the whole Idea of having 4 refs so that they cover more ground quicker?

gopher16
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Post by gopher16 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:41 pm

It doesn't matter the system, (3 or 4 Officials). There are only 2 "Referees" on the ice at any time in a HS game. The other official (or officials) are strictly linesmen, whose main responsibility are line calls (off-sides or icings). They cannot be blowing whistles when the puck is lost at the goal, or if the goalie covers the puck. As the previous post says, they'd be looking for another hobby. The high or neutral zone referee NEVER blows a play dead down low during the normal course of play in the goal crease. (the only instance where this might happen is if the low ref becomes injured or is knocked down and cannot see the play). If there is a delayed penalty, and the puck ends up down low by the goalie and the high official has the delay on, it is their job to follow play low as well. 2 Referees is plenty to call a game. If a referee loses sight of the puck (no matter what the high officials see) they are supposed to blow play dead. If the puck comes out, that is just part of the game. This happens in college and the pros. It is PART OF THE GAME.

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