Section Realingment for Girls Hockey

[joehockey]

Read this on the Roseau thread - anyone know when the new Section Alignments will be announced?

“The boys are in Class AA, and we have some good youth teams coming up,” he said.

Roseau’s schedule won’t change for the 2009-10 season. The Rams will still play Warroad twice.

But Section 8A is down to six teams. New section assignments will be made later this month.
Warroad coach David Marvin said he’s disappointed Roseau is moving out of Section 8A to join Section 8AA.

[State Champ 97]

I would guess that means Elk River or North Wright County will move out of 8AA.

I don't think anyone has the option of moving to class A. I could be wrong on that though.

That leaves 8A very small. Any guesses who moves there?

[MNHockeyFan]

I would guess that means Elk River or North Wright County will move out of 8AA.

I don't think anyone has the option of moving to class A. I could be wrong on that though.

Currently there is no option to move down if your enrollment is too large for Class A.

That leaves 8A very small. Any guesses who moves there?

If nothing else changes then wouldn't Willmar be the closest geographically? It's a huge distance between Willmar and Warroad but I don't know of any other Class A teams that would be closer.

Before any decisions are made I guess we'll have to wait until all the teams have announced their intentions for next year.

[State Champ 97]

Currently there is no option to move down if your enrollment is too large for Class A.

I meant teams that had previously "opted up" and had fulfilled their comittment. I know Bemidji had opted up in the past but I don't know if the committment is fulfilled. I think there are two years left and the numbers in Bemidji are bad. Really bad. Then again the cut off number could change and Bemidji won't have a choice anyway.

If nothing else changes then wouldn't Willmar be the closest geographically? It's a huge distance between Willmar and Warroad but I don't know of any other Class A teams that would be closer.

Before any decisions are made I guess we'll have to wait until all the teams have announced their intentions for next year.

Willmar? I don't think so. There are many other teams that are closer. Park Rapids is one example that comes to mind. The boys already play in 8A. Wouldn't surprise me if the girls move there as well. I don't know what that would do to their current section.

[MNHockeyFan]

Willmar? I don't think so. There are many other teams that are closer. Park Rapids is one example that comes to mind. The boys already play in 8A. Wouldn't surprise me if the girls move there as well. I don't know what that would do to their current section.

I believe Park Rapids already in Section 8A. According to the MSHSL website, 8A now has 7 teams:

Warroad
Thief River Falls
East Grand Forks
Crookston
Lake of the Woods
Park Rapids
Roseau

With Roseau going to 8AA, that would leave 8A with 6 teams. I looked a little closer and sections 1A and 6A already have just 6 teams, so with Roseau's departure the MSHSL may decide to nothing further. Again I would imagine before taking any realignment action at all in both A and AA they would have to wait until all teams make their intentions known.

[hshockeyfan91]

I know that this has been talked about ad nauseam, but I think there are two things the MSHSL should be doing:

1) Like in youth soccer, as you win, you are forced to move up a bracket. High school isn’t exactly the same, but when teams like Blake and Breck win year after year after year after year – there’s something broken. Class A teams, esp. private school teams, that participate in a section final game 2 out of 3 years, or 3 out of 5 – or something like that – should be required to move up to AA.

2) I know KRATCH ranking aren’t perfect, but they do give a general idea of strength. In Sec 1A #64 was the best team, in 2A it was #33, in 3A #63, in 4A #44, in 6A #43, in 7A there is only one team under #74. But in section 5A and 8A there are multiple HIGHLY ranked teams. A similar situation is present in AA. This is the best the MSHSL can do? Virtually anyone who follows HS hockey at all, certainly the coaches, could come up with much better competitive alignments.

The MSHSL says “oh, this is just too complicated, we can’t get it right, therefore we just won’t pay attention at all and pretend that everything is equal.” I think that’s a cop out that says “if we can’t get it perfect, we won’t do anything at all…” That’s a mistake. Why do Orono, Richfield, St Louis Park, Crookston East Grand Forks, etc. all have to wade through a ridiculous section year after year? Why do teams from weaker sections get rewarded by going to state virtually every year with mediocre teams.

There are so many alternatives
1) Use regional groups – maybe 4 regions instead of 8 sections and send the two best teams from each region?
2) Create a backdoor for the losing team in section finals to have a single play in game?
3) How about a single 16 team A/AA tournament with 8 section winners, and 8 at large teams?
4) How about balancing sections based on the past 3 or 5 year win/lost percentage of the teams in the section?
5) How about having 7 sections with the section that won state the previous year getting two slots?

Some of these ideas would work; some wouldn’t. The point is that the MSHSL buries it’s head in the sand and pretends nothing is wrong and nothing can be done. Don’t you think a class A state tournament with Breck, Blake, Warroad, Roseau, Crookston, and Mound involved would have had more interest – more ticket sales – than what we saw? (And again, a similar question could be posed for AA – with Stillwater, Roseville, and Hill-Murray, etc. all in.) Wouldn’t that have helped girls hockey and the MSHSL?

[State Champ 97]

Willmar? I don't think so. There are many other teams that are closer. Park Rapids is one example that comes to mind. The boys already play in 8A. Wouldn't surprise me if the girls move there as well. I don't know what that would do to their current section.

I believe Park Rapids already in Section 8A. According to the MSHSL website, 8A now has 7 teams:

Warroad
Thief River Falls
East Grand Forks
Crookston
Lake of the Woods
Park Rapids
Roseau

With Roseau going to 8AA, that would leave 8A with 6 teams. I looked a little closer and sections 1A and 6A already have just 6 teams, so with Roseau's departure the MSHSL may decide to nothing further. Again I would imagine before taking any realignment action at all in both A and AA they would have to wait until all teams make their intentions known.

Oops I was thinking they are in the same section as other teams from the Central Lakes. My bad.

[State Champ 97]

I know that this has been talked about ad nauseam, but I think there are two things the MSHSL should be doing:

1) Like in youth soccer, as you win, you are forced to move up a bracket. High school isn’t exactly the same, but when teams like Blake and Breck win year after year after year after year – there’s something broken. Class A teams, esp. private school teams, that participate in a section final game 2 out of 3 years, or 3 out of 5 – or something like that – should be required to move up to AA.

2) I know KRATCH ranking aren’t perfect, but they do give a general idea of strength. In Sec 1A #64 was the best team, in 2A it was #33, in 3A #63, in 4A #44, in 6A #43, in 7A there is only one team under #74. But in section 5A and 8A there are multiple HIGHLY ranked teams. A similar situation is present in AA. This is the best the MSHSL can do? Virtually anyone who follows HS hockey at all, certainly the coaches, could come up with much better competitive alignments.

The MSHSL says “oh, this is just too complicated, we can’t get it right, therefore we just won’t pay attention at all and pretend that everything is equal.” I think that’s a cop out that says “if we can’t get it perfect, we won’t do anything at all…” That’s a mistake. Why do Orono, Richfield, St Louis Park, Crookston East Grand Forks, etc. all have to wade through a ridiculous section year after year? Why does Fergus Falls, to use an example, get rewarded by going to state virtually every year with mediocre teams.

There are so many alternatives
1) Use regional groups – maybe 4 regions instead of 8 sections and send the two best teams from each region?
2) Create a backdoor for the losing team in section finals to have a single play in game?
3) How about a single 16 team A/AA tournament with 8 section winners, and 8 at large teams?
4) How about balancing sections based on the past 3 or 5 year win/lost percentage of the teams in the section?
5) How about having 7 sections with the section that won state the previous year getting two slots?

Some of these ideas would work; some wouldn’t. The point is that the MSHSL buries it’s head in the sand and pretends nothing is wrong and nothing can be done. Don’t you think a class A state tournament with Breck, Blake, Warroad, Roseau, Crookston, and Mound involved would have had more interest – more ticket sales – than what we saw? (And again, a similar question could be posed for AA – with Stillwater, Roseville, and Hill-Murray, etc. all in.) Wouldn’t that have helped girls hockey and the MSHSL?

Hasn't Alexandria represented that section at State the last few years? I will agree that it is a weak section.

[sneach13]

Im pretty sure that Alexandria has been to state the last 4 years, not including this year. In fact Alexandria won the state tournament last year...make sure you know what your talking about before you bad mouth a team or section.

[hshockeyfan91]

...to stateChamp97 and Sneach13 - Sorry to pick on a specific team - I didn't really mean to do that, accurate or not.

But my central point remains - sections are not competative in the least and the MSHSL should take some steps to improve competative balance.

[State Champ 97]

Im pretty sure that Alexandria has been to state the last 4 years, not including this year. In fact Alexandria won the state tournament last year...make sure you know what your talking about before you bad mouth a team or section.

Alexandria was a great team last year. The section they play in is weak. Morris/Benson? Pequot Lakes? Long Prairie? Sorry friend that is a weak section. Alex wasn't very good this year either. Fergus was a decent team this year but not great by any means. And they lose their superstar.

[jumpstart]

Okay, this might be a little lengthy, but let me throw out another suggestion: How about a tournament like the NCAA basketball tournament where you start with 64 teams and work your way down to the top two teams. In the current section/state format, a team must win 6 games (3 in sections and 3 at state) to win the state title. The same would be true with a 64-team playoff.

The Kratch rankings could be used to determine seeding. This year, there were 68 teams in AA. In this scenario, the last 8 teams would have play-in games. Then the #1 ranked team in the state would play the winner of the #61-#68 game; #2 would play the winner of the #62-#67 game, etc.

I would propose that the first game be played at the home rink of the higher-ranked team. After that, the next 2 games could be played at a neutral site near the higher-ranked team's home town. Then bring everyone still remaining down to the X for the last 3 games, including 3rd place and consolation games.

In A this year, there were 56 teams. I would propose giving the top 8 teams a buy, #9 would play #56, #10 would play #55, etc. The winner of A would need to win 5 or 6 games to capture the state title. I would propose the same format --The first game to be played at the home rink of the higher-seeded team. The next game to be played at a neutral site near the higher-ranked team's home town, and then bring the remaining teams to the X.

The first obstacle I see might be the potential longer travel for the lower-ranked teams. I see this as more of an issue for the A teams than the AA teams. This could add cost to a program that might already be strapped for money. The second obstacle might be finding a neutral site at a late date in the season. The third obstacle ties to the second where the teams must wait until the season is over before the rankings can be finalized. A way to avoid this might be to have the regular season end one week earlier.

I would be curious to hear others thoughts on this proposal.

[allhoc11]

But my central point remains - sections are not competative in the least and the MSHSL should take some steps to improve competative balance.

I think this is an excellent point, it's the same in every sport. Unfortunately the MSHSL doesn't seem to be worried with actual "competitive sections" even though that's what they call them. They in fact should be called "Geographical Sections" which is a more accurate depiction of them, and then we should probably change the name of the "State Tournament" to the "Geographical Tournament" as MSHSL league assures that we get equal representation from each geographical area of the state, and not the best teams to their end of season tournament.

[upnorthguy]

I would guess that means Elk River or North Wright County will move out of 8AA.

I don't think anyone has the option of moving to class A. I could be wrong on that though.

That leaves 8A very small. Any guesses who moves there?

Who would you like to leave your section for your team to compete against. North Wright County, Elk River, or Roseau

[Silent But Deadly]

Who would you like to leave your section for your team to compete against. North Wright County, Elk River, or Roseau

Lost me on that one....all three are pretty decent teams.

[MNHockeyFan]

But my central point remains - sections are not competative in the least and the MSHSL should take some steps to improve competative balance.

I think this is an excellent point, it's the same in every sport. Unfortunately the MSHSL doesn't seem to be worried with actual "competitive sections" even though that's what they call them. They in fact should be called "Geographical Sections" which is a more accurate depiction of them, and then we should probably change the name of the "State Tournament" to the "Geographical Tournament" as MSHSL league assures that we get equal representation from each geographical area of the state, and not the best teams to their end of season tournament.

As allhoc11 says the MSHSL uses primarily geography in determining which teams are in which sections. They do this for all sports and the odds are very slim that you'll ever see them make a change (exception) just for hockey. It would require a totally new approach in the way sections are alligned, and such a radical departure from a 60+ year tradition isn't something that's likely to happen any time soon. If they were ever going to consider a state-wide seeding/playoff type system it would probably have to be for all sports. The same goes for basing the different classes on enrollment - I doubt you will see the MSHSL force any teams to move up to a higher class just because they've won a lot lately playing against schools having similar enrollments.

Unfortunately right now in Class A girls hockey we have huge disparities in quality between a few select programs (Blake, Warroad, Breck and Roseau being the top four this year) and 90% of the rest of the teams. A tiny few (including Crookston) could compete fairly well with the big powers, but the quality dropped off REAL fast after about 3-4 teams beyond the top 4 or 5.

It's good to see Roseau voluntarily moving up to AA but the flip side is that we'll now have one less real strong program in A to compete for the State Championship. The only difference is that instead of having 4 great A teams in 2 sections we're likely to have 3 great teams in 2 sections. Of course these programs go through their ups and downs (Alexandria being a good example this year) but unfortunately the Class A tournament was way too predictable this year - after sections were done EVERYONE knew it would come down to Warroad and Blake.

I wish we would see some kind a change coming, but based on 60+ years of tradition for ALL SPORTS I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. If anything them making a radical change is probably more unlikely than ever as they are looking for ways to cut costs.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but that's the way I see it right now.

[State Champ 97]

I would guess that means Elk River or North Wright County will move out of 8AA.

I don't think anyone has the option of moving to class A. I could be wrong on that though.

That leaves 8A very small. Any guesses who moves there?

Who would you like to leave your section for your team to compete against. North Wright County, Elk River, or Roseau

My team does compete against Elk River, NWC and Roseau quite well for the most part. I don't really care if they leave. I was thinking geographically. Elk River's boys play 7AA, the girls only played 3 section games this year so they would make the most sense to move. NWC is another semi-metro team but I doubt they are going any where.

[allhoc11]

I wish we would see some kind a change coming, but based on 60+ years of tradition for ALL SPORTS I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. If anything them making a radical change is probably more unlikely than ever as they are looking for ways to cut costs.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but that's the way I see it right now.

I don't think it's pessimistic, just realistic. MSHSL doesn't seem to change it's ways drastically unless pushed by lawsuit.

The one thing that may change the way they view things, was if they started loosing participants because kids starting choosing a better option. I keep hearing rumors, and they would've been accelerated if the MSHSL had cut games, of creating an alternative for kids that would create teams based on talent level, with kids of like talent on teams with players of similar talent, they in turn play teams at the same level. I don't see this happing in the near future, but as people grow tired of an old broken system that is out-dated, and financial strains on schools force cuts we may see change in the distant future.

[Bensonmum]

I just hope they don't mess with Section 4AA. I'm already looking forward to the Section Semis and Final next year.

[allhoc11]

I just hope they don't mess with Section 4AA. I'm already looking forward to the Section Semis and Final next year.

Here's my question, wouldn't you like to see those games on TV, at the State Tournament?

Every year there are a couple loaded sections last year 4AA, two years ago 2AA, not coincidently the eventual State Champ came out of the toughest section the past two years. With the stage the game is at, I think we would better serve the growth of the game if the games people are actually able to see on TV, showcase the best teams. In addition those section semis/finals happen on the same night as other section games so fans of the game can't see them. It just seems there could be a way to give the best teams a chance to showcase their talents in the games showcase event.

[Melvin44]

I just hope they don't mess with Section 4AA. I'm already looking forward to the Section Semis and Final next year.

Here's my question, wouldn't you like to see those games on TV, at the State Tournament?

Every year there are a couple loaded sections last year 4AA, two years ago 2AA, not coincidently the eventual State Champ came out of the toughest section the past two years. With the stage the game is at, I think we would better serve the growth of the game if the games people are actually able to see on TV, showcase the best teams. In addition those section semis/finals happen on the same night as other section games so fans of the game can't see them. It just seems there could be a way to give the best teams a chance to showcase their talents in the games showcase event.

I agree with this.

The State tournament should be with as many top teams as possible, which would grow the sport. It shouldn't be about what's fair and have representation from all areas. If the State tourney was with all Northern teams and they were the top teams. I would attend and enjoy the best hockey possible. I feel the younger girls would want to watch and know when they finally earned the chance to play in state. They would know they made it by beating the best. Not just that they were the best of a weak section.

Why can't sections be decided at the end of the year or move a few teams to make sure at least all sections have 2-3 top teams.

Example this year you could've moved Roseville or Stillwater to Section 1 at the end of the year.

It's not just about one section. It seems every couple of years it's a different section, which is loaded.

One last thing. I thing all privates should be in one section. J.K.

[allhoc11]

I just hope they don't mess with Section 4AA. I'm already looking forward to the Section Semis and Final next year.

Here's my question, wouldn't you like to see those games on TV, at the State Tournament?

Every year there are a couple loaded sections last year 4AA, two years ago 2AA, not coincidently the eventual State Champ came out of the toughest section the past two years. With the stage the game is at, I think we would better serve the growth of the game if the games people are actually able to see on TV, showcase the best teams. In addition those section semis/finals happen on the same night as other section games so fans of the game can't see them. It just seems there could be a way to give the best teams a chance to showcase their talents in the games showcase event.

I agree with this.

The State tournament should be with as many top teams as possible, which would grow the sport. It shouldn't be about what's fair and have representation from all areas. If the State tourney was with all Northern teams and they were the top teams. I would attend and enjoy the best hockey possible. I feel the younger girls would want to watch and know when they finally earned the chance to play in state. They would know they made it by beating the best. Not just that they were the best of a weak section.

Why can't sections be decided at the end of the year or move a few teams to make sure at least all sections have 2-3 top teams.

Example this year you could've moved Roseville or Stillwater to Section 1 at the end of the year.

It's not just about one section. It seems every couple of years it's a different section, which is loaded.

One last thing. I thing all privates should be in one section. J.K.

Well said, If we put privates in one section, then we put all teams who have a transfer kid playing in another, all schools who cover more than one community in another, last any outstate team that has a kid move there for hockey in another. I think that covers all our special groups

[nmnhockeydad]

If you realign sections to try and get it to be more competitive, how long does that last? All programs around the state, both strong and weak or big or small go through cycles. The powers will not always be powers. Girls hockey at the high school level is still developing and is so at different rates. I know realignment needs to happen to balance the size of sections, but don't try and change the competitive balance because I believe that it is something that will take care of itself.

[keepitreal]

If you realign sections to try and get it to be more competitive, how long does that last? All programs around the state, both strong and weak or big or small go through cycles. The powers will not always be powers. Girls hockey at the high school level is still developing and is so at different rates. I know realignment needs to happen to balance the size of sections, but don't try and change the competitive balance because I believe that it is something that will take care of itself.

This is very true, especially in the single A where the graduation of a few key seniors (see Alexandria) can dramatically affect their team. The success or lack of for many of these schools often hinges on the presence of a couple players moving through. And because many of these talented players can make an impact even as 8th graders in the small schools, the program has a good 4-5 year run with the right core of players at the right time. But all things change.

Behind that, it's the quality of high school coaching and development at the youth levels. You hope some high school success inspires the youth program to improve to keep the ball rolling, but it doesn't always work out that way. This is the cycle.

[allhoc11]

If you realign sections to try and get it to be more competitive, how long does that last? All programs around the state, both strong and weak or big or small go through cycles. The powers will not always be powers. Girls hockey at the high school level is still developing and is so at different rates. I know realignment needs to happen to balance the size of sections, but don't try and change the competitive balance because I believe that it is something that will take care of itself.

I agree, and I don't think realignment is the answer. I think the whole system needs to change, and that is why I think this is just a bunch of talk, as I don't see the MSHSL going through a major change.

In my perfect world, we develop a Top 64 in each class like NCAA basketball, then seed by region to cut travel times if possible. The other option I see is keep the same sections, but take the top 16 in each class, and place them 2 in each section. Any system that would help solve the problem has to leave room to be changed at the end of the season so we get a true State Tournament.