Duluth Marshall

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:10 am

Very interesting new direction that Duluth Marshall is pursuing for girls hockey.

Marshall keeps hockey plan

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/ ... up/sports/

joehockey · Post by **joehockey** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:38 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:Very interesting new direction that Duluth Marshall is pursuing for girls hockey.

Marshall keeps hockey plan

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/ ... up/sports/

This is a very innovative approach to Girls Hockey in MN. Duluth Marshall is a very strong boys HS Team. The DM girls HS school has been part of a HS coop with at least 2 other schools in Duluth.

The MN Girls HS Model has worked well and is growing in the number of MN girls playing at D1 and I think at D3.

On the Boys Vision of US Hockey this might be strongly embraced - I hope they succeed as an alternate to MN HS Hockey and a chance for MN Girls to play/compete on a National Level.

I commend the creative thinking on this project to create an alternative in Duluth where I think girls hockey has stalled out a bit - maybe some of you up Nort' can comment on growth of girls hockey in Duluth?

Post by **karl(east)** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:20 pm

I don't know a lot about girls' hockey in Duluth, but a quick glance at the results makes it pretty clear there's some untapped potential here. If this city can field a top-flight AA public boys' program, a very good private A boys' program, and a decent third public A team, the city should be able to manage more than a mediocre co-op for both public schools and a minority share in a mediocre 3-team co-op by the private school for the girls.

But with that said, will this program really do much to boost girls' hockey in Duluth? The article says only 2 of the 15 players signed up were Marshall students last year, and most of the rest are not from the area. Did Shattuck's departure from the MSHSL really do anything to boost hockey in Faribault? Also, what happens to girls who want to play hockey at Marshall who are older than U-14? Is this only the first step in a larger program that will expand to other age groups, and maybe to boys' hockey as well?

For that matter, what does Shattuck do for girls' hockey?

I'm not trying to say this program is bad--it looks like a smart business decision for the school and in the long run is probably a good thing for girls' hockey. For that, I commend Marshall.

I've spent most my time on this forum this summer reading the back-and-forth on the Youth Forum about "existential threats" to the Minnesota Hockey model. Most of that discussion centers on things like Minnesota Made, the Wisconsin Fire, Tier 1, and AAU. This is the first time something has hit close to home, and I'm still trying to figure out what it all means.

brookyone · Post by **brookyone** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:34 pm

I guess it's a viable, potential alternative to maintain the opportunity to continue to play the game for those affected by the dissolution of the PHM co-op. A little sad IMO to see that co-op dissolved over an inability to reach a financial arrangement satisfactory to all. A "per player" based cost seems reasonable to me...and other co-ops have used that method successfully. I'd rather see the kids associated with the MSHSL personally...with the chance to play in the state tournament beginning with section play. But if it allows an avenue to play to anyone that could be left without that opportunity due to termination of the co-op, it's all good.

I don't know anything about circumstances in the Duluth area regarding girls high school hockey per the area high schools, so I have to ask a stupid question...why such a low number of Marshall girls?

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:16 am

My daughter is one of those who will be playing at Marshall. We are very excited about the opportunity. The impetus behind the program was creating options for girls hockey—to create a program that married athletics with academics. The fact is that in Duluth there aren’t a whole lot of options. The girl's youth program has struggled valiantly for years due to multiple reasons, one of which is the competition with the smaller associations (neighborhood rinks) in Duluth—unique to the rest of the state. The Duluth Girl’s Association only fields a U14 team about once every 3 years, and when they do, it is usually a co-op. Other years the High School team gobbles up its ”best” players. Last year there was no 14 team at all. DAHA as a whole has always treated the girls as an afterthought and doesn't see the benefit of promoting girl's hockey as a way to grow both boys and girls. Although this is my opinion as well as many others, there is a documented track record that has continued with DAHA refusing acceptance of this program due to a fear that it will eventually transfer to the boys. Moving up towards high school, the options again are limited. The Proctor/Hermantown/Marshall marriage included one girl from Marshall. Marshall paid for a third of the program, thus the dissolution of Marshall’s participation. The Duluth High School program also struggles. One team for two schools that until last year was three schools. They lost a school as it was closed due to dropping enrollment. Last year the Stars had a group of senior girls who left due to the state of coaching and their overall experience. That doesn't bode well for those 14's that are looking forward a few years. In a town that prides itself on its hockey history, in reality it is not much different than the movie North Country when it comes to girls hockey- chauvinistic at best, misogynistic at worst.

Marshall’s vision mimics Shattuck’s program. Marshall has high standards for its athletics as well as its academics, and they wanted to create something unique for the northland that would provide an opportunity for those wanting something truly exceptional. They would start at U14's for a year, move into the U16's for two years, and then eventually become a dedicated U18/U16 program. All girls would attend Marshall, and the first roster would be comprised of girls from Duluth, Wisconsin, and other parts of Minnesota. Practices will be daily in the morning as part of their curriculum. The team would play a combined schedule consisting of spring and fall AAA and then USA sanctioned teams during the winter. MN Hockey was made aware of the whole planning process, along with DAHA. MN Hockey indicated it was fairly certain there wouldn't be any delays due to the fact that it was mimicking Shattuck's program. After DAHA refused to make a decision, yes or no, MN Hockey declined approval due to DAHA not approving it. Marshall anticipated the foot dragging from DAHA, and had already created an alternate plan to play against private schools with similar circumstances should MN Hockey fail to approve it. With this came the good and the bad. The good is that the girls will be playing against some of the most prestigious private schools in the country with a 9 month schedule that is really a dream come true for those of us that wanted something better. The bad part of this is that DAHA, MN Hockey and USA Hockey are going to potentially lose a school that really wanted to be a part of their organization. By DAHA's short sightedness, they will lose a U16 and a U18 team that they never would have had otherwise—as long as the program is in existence. Instead it’s another black eye for MN Hockey and for DAHA. I can't believe that USA Hockey will be happy about it. In the mean time, these girls will be attending guest schools when on the road, visiting cultural landmarks and enjoying a hockey experience that is not the norm, nor presently available. Over 200 hours of practices per year. All for the cost of tuition at one of the country’s best prep schools.

In the end, there is still hope that MN/USA Hockey will embrace the program and welcome them into their fold. MN Hockey has a lot to gain by endorsing this program, and it has a lot to lose if it doesn't. This is a really good thing for girl's hockey, especially in Duluth, and I foresee other schools like Marshall going down this road in the future. The mentality of forcing a limited schedule is becoming less acceptable. With the popularity of AAA programs and a healthy spring and fall season, the question has to be asked why not? Why not start providing these types of opportunities for our girls, especially when their overall options are so limited? As a society we encourage our piano players, our drama students, even our figure skaters to practice and play all year. Why should hockey be any different, especially if the kid and the parents are dedicated? If you are interested in getting more information, call Marshall's AD at 218.727.7266 or email hilltopperhockey@gmail.com.

Hansonbrother · Post by **Hansonbrother** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:24 pm

[With the popularity of AAA programs and a healthy spring and fall season, the question has to be asked why not? Why not start providing these types of opportunities for our girls, especially when their overall options are so limited? As a society we encourage our piano players, our drama students, even our figure skaters to practice and play all year. Why should hockey be any different, especially if the kid and the parents are dedicated? If you are interested in getting more information, call Marshall's AD at 218.727.7266 or email hilltopperhockey@gmail.com.[/quote]

Hardwater, you had me then you lost me. I for one do not believe in more games and year round hockey. As is, there is soo much hockey available to these kids. What good are games if the skills aren't there? I know games are more fun to watch, and kids like to compete. But year round typically leads to a "burn out" factor to the majority of players and empty pocket books to the parents. To me, when I hear parents tell me that if their kid doesn't play hockey year round, they'll fall behind, I start to laugh. They won't fall behind! I think the owners of the hockey camps start these rumors!!
For the many D-1 players that I have seen, I think 99% were multiple sport athletes that competed for their high schools in every season. As long as the kids are active, and train, they don't need 100 games a year.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:42 pm

Sorry Dave, didn't mean to lose you. This type of program only provides more opportunities for the kids. Most/all afternoon and evenings will be off to allow the kids to explore other activites, including other sports. This is something that has been missing from most of these families for the past 5 years due to practices after school. That's a good thing? I for one will relish having dinner with my whole family again. I don't believe that skating in the morning as part of their curriculum is going to burn anyone out either. I would wager a guess that if it gets them out of PE or Art class, they won't be complaining too much. Remember, this is a 3 to 1 practice schedule over games. As far as games, typically Johnny or Suzy is playing a normal HS schedule of 25 -30 games, plus a healthy AAA season of 4-5 tournaments, making it a combined schedule of around 55 to 65 games for the whole year. Fair assesment? Marshall is no more than that- it's just that they are combining the two seasons as part of the whole school year. So far the parents and the kids are elated with the schedule. Time will tell...

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:22 pm

Hard water fan wrote: In the end, there is still hope that MN/USA Hockey will embrace the program and welcome them into their fold. MN Hockey has a lot to gain by endorsing this program, and it has a lot to lose if it doesn't.

Straight question here: What does MN hockey have to gain? For that matter, how does DM benefit from being endorsed by MN Hockey? I'm not seeing how a symbiotic relationship is structured.

It sounds like DAHA needs some new blood. I've got to admit I find this surprising as the Ice Breaker is he best girls hockey tournament in the state. Is DAHA the dysfunctional family that puts on a good face when the social workers come to call?

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:08 pm

Hey EP- I'll do my best. Without an affiliate agreement, MH loses a 16 and 18 team what would otherwise be with them in perpetuity. By sanctioning them, they would have the same relationship as with Shattuck. IMO, I think it only broadens the opportunities for our kids and by that, strengthens the organization. As far as the tourney and DAHA, I agree, and I love your analogy. Remember that in Duluth, we have many associations under DAHA that trickle down to neighborhood rinks. The Duluth Girl's Hockey Association (DGHA) is one of them. I personally have worked very hard along with other volunteers to make the St. Luke's Icebreaker Invitational a world class event. DAHA has been very helpful in providing ice time for the tournament, but beyond that, they have hurt the DGHA organization in many ways, including promoting girls playing with boys instead of promoting the girls organization. Our hopes were to make it another option for the kids in the DGHA, kind of a feeder program for those that want something more than HS. That being said, I really don't think they care about girl's hockey, unless it affects the boys programs. When you step into that realm, the teeth come out and the girls quickly become a liability instead of an asset. Board members have admitted that the only reason they didn't approve it is because of their fear of the boys being next, thus skimming top talent away from the HS teams. That is also why the coach of the girls HS team was a vocal opponent of the program, ironically, the same one who takes kids at the 14 level robbing the DGHA of 14 teams on a regular basis...

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:57 pm

Hard water fan wrote:Hey EP- I'll do my best. Without an affiliate agreement, MH loses a 16 and 18 team what would otherwise be with them in perpetuity. By sanctioning them, they would have the same relationship as with Shattuck. IMO, I think it only broadens the opportunities for our kids and by that, strengthens the organization. As far as the tourney and DAHA, I agree, and I love your analogy. Remember that in Duluth, we have many associations under DAHA that trickle down to neighborhood rinks. The Duluth Girl's Hockey Association (DGHA) is one of them. I personally have worked very hard along with other volunteers to make the St. Luke's Icebreaker Invitational a world class event. DAHA has been very helpful in providing ice time for the tournament, but beyond that, they have hurt the DGHA organization in many ways, including promoting girls playing with boys instead of promoting the girls organization. Our hopes were to make it another option for the kids in the DGHA, kind of a feeder program for those that want something more than HS. That being said, I really don't think they care about girl's hockey, unless it affects the boys programs. When you step into that realm, the teeth come out and the girls quickly become a liability instead of an asset. Board members have admitted that the only reason they didn't approve it is because of their fear of the boys being next, thus skimming top talent away from the HS teams. That is also why the coach of the girls HS team was a vocal opponent of the program, ironically, the same one who takes kids at the 14 level robbing the DGHA of 14 teams on a regular basis...

So with and affiliate agreement DM could scrimmage HS teams, like Shattuck does, but without the agreement any and all interaction is forbidden?

It's sad when a youth sports organization worries more about how the HS hockey team fares than how their members are served. I like it when EP HS wins state, but the warm glow lasts an hour at most after the trophies are handed out. What lasts year round are the healthy bodies, habits and attitudes developed during years of youth hockey. Winning state tournaments, putting kids in D1 schools, or even in the NHL is the LAST thing a youth hockey association should be worried about.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:13 pm

Not necessarily- USA and MH have nothing to do with the State High School League. It does however affect nationals.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:22 pm

Hard water fan wrote:Not necessarily- USA and MH have nothing to do with the State High School League. It does however affect nationals.

So this would affect interaction with Minnesota Hockey U16 and U18 teams? Not many of those around, and those that do exist are not really up to playing Shattuck North. As for nationals, can you do an end-run past Minnesota Hockey and work directly with USA hockey?

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:07 pm

EP Dad they can try an end run but they need an affiliate agreement or an affiliate to host them. Minnesota Hockey's affiliate agreement with USA Hockey gives them governance with in their boundaries.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:07 pm

Correct EP. We're hoping that in the spirit of being good neighbors MN Hockey will see the benefits and that won't be necessary...

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:30 pm

Hard water fan wrote:Correct EP. We're hoping that in the spirit of being good neighbors MN Hockey will see the benefits and that won't be necessary...

Not that I doubt your honesty, but it will be interesting to hear the opposing view.

According to my daughter, after Vancouver, Duluth is the most fun city in the world to visit (gotta get that girl out more). A hockey HS in the second most fun city to visit would be tempting. Of course getting her out of EP would require sedatives and a crowbar. The association does a good job here and the girls all bleed black. Hearing your troubles has me feeling lucky indeed.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:49 pm

Agreed. Growing up a Cougar/Hornet makes me appreciate solid school districts with strong athletic programs. Despite the adversity, I firmly believe the Marshall girls program will be a success while becoming a model representative for what girl's hockey can be. I don't think the school will settle for anything less...

northhockey · Post by **northhockey** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:13 pm

They "settled for less" for the 14 years of the time the high school team existed. Some strong players from Marshall played for PHM, but the school put in ZERO effort toward the girls high school team. Ask any player or parent from Marshall if they were happy with the school's effort and they would probably all say NO.

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:05 pm

ZERO effort toward the girls high school team.

It's 5 year olds. There are either enough girls or there aren't. It sounds like there aren't enough at Marshall, or in Duluth. Unfortunately, the effort needs to be put in at the kindergarten level.

Seems like a funny solution to having 5-6 strong players and looking for another 6-7.

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:12 am

Anyone know what is happening with the girls program at Marshall? I heard there were some problems and the program is potentially being shut down on December 31st?

MinnGirlsHockey · Post by **MinnGirlsHockey** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:08 pm

JohnnyBuck wrote:Anyone know what is happening with the girls program at Marshall? I heard there were some problems and the program is potentially being shut down on December 31st?

I hadn't heard anything but I'm not very connected to the program. Might these be "external" problems (like with MN Hockey or USA Hockey) or internal problems? Hard water fan, are you out there and do have any info you can share?

HCHAhockey · Post by **HCHAhockey** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:57 pm

I heard they fired all three coaches (including the founders), hired interim coaches, and are "evaluating the future of the program." Rumor has it the program went from trying to build a Tier I Shattuck program with lots of travel and high end competition to a glorified U14 association program that has had a hard time finding games and attracting new recruits.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:35 am

So here's what I know- for starters my family is no longer part of the program. Due to numerous personal situations, it was necessary for us to leave. We made the switch to High School and are very happy under the coaching tutelage of the highly respected Glen Gilderman and Co. for the PHM. Marshall is still providing an AAA type schedule for the girls. They have top notch girls from Canada, Wisconsin and Minnesota on the team. Albeit skewed a bit young, they are a very good team. As I understand they played very well in the Manion Rheume Tournament (Detroit) in December, and have a healthy win-loss record against Tier I and Canadian Bantam AA teams which contain girls that are typically older than Marshall. Besides my daughter they have lost a couple girls for various reasons, but they also have recruited some new players from outside of Duluth. One of their stand-outs is done for the season due to an injury. Beyond that, they have a healthy team and some very good talent. Although we are no longer a part of the program, I'm still a strong supporter of it as I think it is really important to offer opportunities of this type for girls hockey. These girls (and parents) make enromous sacrificies to participate in a program like this, and it helps to raise the quality of players coming out of Minnesota. Most of these kids are what I would call Type A players who are very passionate about hockey and have a desire to play at a higher level. Marshall is a top notch school and has high expectations for these girls.

Regarding their level of play, the agreement with MN Hockey requires them to play at a MN Hockey 14UB level to avoid conflict with the other program in town, The Duluth Girls Hockey Association (Icebreakers). They are scheduled to jump to 16U's next year. Due to being a younger team, you might find them playing one more year at 14's depending on the composition of the team next year and what MN Hockey decides is best for all parties involved. That will be a wait and see.

Regarding the coaching situation, Brian Konowalchuk and Whitney Graft are no longer employed by Marshall. A volunteer parent coach is also no longer on the bench. The circumstances surrounding this was an internal issue that was obviously serious enough to have them leave mid-season. Unfortunate for the program, kids and parents, but IMO a good decision for Marshall to deal with it the way they did. They have hired Patty Elsmore-Sautter as their replacement coach. Patty is a wonderful addition to the team. She is team Switzerlands Goalie (or was in the last couple Olympics), a record holder from UMD and former coach for St. Scholastica. My daughter was very lucky to receive goalie instruction from Patty for 9 months. She is a no-nonsense, passionate, quality role model for these young girls and should do a great job taking the program to the next level.

Lastly, a bit off topic. If I had my druthers, MN would require all private schools to particpate in a private school league, much like other parts of the country. Contrary to what some think, I personally don't think it would diminish the quality of the MSHSL Tournament, but rather provide an incentive to play for public schools. The State Tournament is still the Big Dance and will always be so in Minnesota. Private schools can go the way of Shattuck and Marshall and play in the Nationals with the rest of the Tier I and II programs.

PL

JohnnyBuck · Post by **JohnnyBuck** » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:50 pm

Thanks Hard Water. Very informative. Too bad the kids had to suffer because of some of the adults behavior. I am assuming they still have a team then? I heard a rumor that some for the team left for local rink teams?

observer · Post by **observer** » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:20 am

Too bad the kids had to suffer because of

your behavior.

Duluth has a single youth association and with good recruiting should have sufficient numbers for multiple teams at 10, 12 and 14. Then the girls can go to high school and play for their HS team. In strong organizations HS school hockey starts in 10th grade for most. Duluth needs to get back to the model used everywhere else in the State. No need for them to get off the track as they did. Very selfish by a few parents that has confused a lot of girls. Probably created tension and ill will that shouldn't be part of a 10 or 12 year olds life. Let the kids play and quit messing with the structure that works fine for the rest of the State.

It starts with recruiting 4 and 5 year olds.

Hard water fan · Post by **Hard water fan** » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:03 pm

[quote="observer"]Duluth needs to get back to the model used everywhere else in the State... No need for them to get off the track as they did...Very selfish by a few parents that has confused a lot of girls.

Observer- just want to clarify a few things in your defense as I wouldn't want people to think you're ignorant. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact that Duluth still is operating off of a neighborhood rink model (the only in the state) and that the girls program is considered one of these eleven "rinks". I also assume that you understand that this model raises the attrition rate significantly for girls leaving hockey as compared to the typical associations found in the rest of the state. Obviously you are very familiar with the effort that has been put forth over the past 15 years by parents involved with the DGHA (Duluth Girls Hockey Association) and agree that the neighborhood rink program- while great in its day (40's through 80's) competes for those young girls in a way that is unhealthy for girls hockey, and as you put it, "confuses" them. In that vein, I'm glad you recognize the great effort that the parents who are associated with the girls program have put into trying to compete with the neighborhood programs, even offering free hockey and building/hosting the nations largest youth girls hockey tournament, and that your statement wasn't meant to minimize these efforts. My last assumption is that you weren't referring to the parents who have enrolled their kids in Marshall as "selfish". That would be a very ignorant statement, as it would obviously apply to the parents of anyone who has enrolled their kids in any type of private tutelage, such as Shattuck, or NAHA, or any other accelerated program or private school...
PL

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