Hey Scorekeepers

[MN_Bowhunter]

If the ref comes to you and says the goal was scored by number 8 from 9 and 10, do you ever arbitrarily decide to not write down one of the assists or even the goal? Of course not, they scored the points they deserve the credit, right?

Why is it then that you don't feel the goalie should get credit for the saves she makes? Save percentage is the only stat a goalie has that means anything, let me give a brief rundown of how it works. Save percentage is saves divided by shots. So if a goalie allows 2 goals on 40 shots it would be 38 divided by 40, save percentage of 950. If she did that every night she'd be playing for the Gophers someday. Because you're busy texting or having a conversation or just don't care, you only record 30 shots. Now the save % is 933, good but not great. Then, after the goalie gets pulled, they score an empty netter which you don't document, so the goal gets charged to the goalie. Save % is down to 900. Congratulations, you just took a great game and made it look incredibly average.

Disclaimer: I understand that pipes, shots by teammates, shots that would have gone wide, clearing attempts that are on net, are not shots on goal.

[MinnGirlsHockey]

Disclaimer: I understand that pipes, shots by teammates, shots that would have gone wide, clearing attempts that are on net, are not shots on goal.

I'm not an official scorekeeper, but for all the years I've been watching hockey I had always thought that shots on goal by teammates (which unfortunately for goalies do happen from time to time!) and clearing attempts that are on net are - or at least, are supposed to be - counted as shots on goal. I thought the rule was, if the goalie wasn't there to stop it, would it be a goal? If the goalie doesn't stop it, then the goal would certainly still be credited to somebody on the opposing team.

In any event, I agree with your original post to the extent that there are too many girls high school scorekeepers not paying full attention to the game. I'm glad they're helping out, but they need to understand what their task is.

Save percentage is the only stat a goalie has that means anything

Kind of a separate topic - I agree, IMHO save percentage is the most meaningful stat you can use for goalies but at the same time it must be taken with a grain of salt depending on the context - for example, the strength/weakness of the team they are playing on or against should be taken into account. I've seen games where the goalie on one team stops 45 of 50 (90% save pct) and the opposing goalie stops all 12 shots they see (100% save pct & a shutout - but most are weak or low-quality shots from far out), and the one with the 90% save pct played a great game (they may have had minimal chance to prevent most of the goals due to screen shots, 2-on-1's, uncontested/back-door type goals, etc.) while the other goalie wasn't even tested but their stats look good.

[goaliepad]

I could not agree with you more MN Bowhunter, as the father of a goalie, I see the hard work put in just to have the stats recorded incorrectly. It is hard to watch untested goalies look so good on paper and recruited heavily based on their stats. Collegiate coaches need to re-evaluate their recruiting processes when it comes to goalies.

[FASTWHEATIE]

I know are team keeps are own stats for our goalies. We have an assistant coach who keeps track of shots during the course of a game and those are the stats we use when we talk to the goalies after a game. I know these stats cannot be used as official stats and they are not seen in the box scores or on hockey hub, but it does give our goalies a realistic view of where they are at. It is just a thought. We also keep track of team turnovers and face-offs. This allows us as coaches to help with are team setting goals in these areas.

[MN_Bowhunter]

Disclaimer: I understand that pipes, shots by teammates, shots that would have gone wide, clearing attempts that are on net, are not shots on goal.

I'm not an official scorekeeper, but for all the years I've been watching hockey I had always thought that shots on goal by teammates (which unfortunately for goalies do happen from time to time!) and clearing attempts that are on net are - or at least, are supposed to be - counted as shots on goal. I thought the rule was, if the goalie wasn't there to stop it, would it be a goal? If the goalie doesn't stop it, then the goal would certainly still be credited to somebody on the opposing team?

The way I understand it is it has to be a scoring attempt from an opposing player, which admittedly leaves some room for interpretation. If a player wants to dump the puck and get off the ice, but takes a blistering slap shot from outside the blue line that's on net, most would and should count that. If a player is trying to ice the puck from inside their blue line and chips one off the glass that dribbles on net, that probably shouldn't count. In the case of a teammate scoring on their own goalie, a goal and a shot is awarded to a player on the other team, but if it doesn't go in, there's no shot counted.

[orm1210]

Bowhunter....i have noticed you like to complain....maybe you can start volunteering your time and start keeping score!

Let me fill you in on how it works....save percentage means nothing. is it nice to have a high save percentage? sure! but if you are good enough to play for the gophers, save percentage wont matter. you could give up 50 shots and 5 goals a game on a bad team but if your coach thinks you are college worthy, they will make the calls and you will get looks.

this isnt the NHL, its high school hockey with people volunteering their time to keep score and tally shots. its not always going to be 100% accurate, but it usually is at least close. Dont think this topics really needs to be brought up in this thread and warrant a 3 paragraph rant about poor scorekeeping.

[hockeyfan21]

No offense, but I hate all the stat stuff. If you really think that colleges are recruiting off the stats on the HUB you're delusional.

Recruiting is 99%:

-Part of the job for HS coaching staffs is to contact colleges about girls. The coaches then go watch them and keep them on their radar

-Holiday Tournaments, because schools can see a ton of kids in a short period of time.

-Off season camps, for the same reason as holiday tournaments, plus the playing field has been leveled by cuts.

Save % can be just as misleading as GAA for the same reason.
Put goalie A on a team with 4 stud defensemen who keep all original shots to the perimeter, and a solid coaching staff that encourages forwards to help in front of the net so the goalie doesn't pay for rebounds, and you have an amazing save %.

Put goalie A on a team with young D who give up quality chances, rushes and never prevent screens and deflections, along with forwards who never pick up the back door lurker and that goalie looks mediocre at best.

Nothing beats the sight test, and lets be honest, the Hub is for crazy dads to salivate over and fuel water cooler talk, as well as justification for twitter/facebook smack talk for the girls.

Of course, that's just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.

[OldGirlsCoach]

Goaltending is the area that must be seen to evaluate. If a college is looking for goaltending they will assess the player over a several games and watch to see what the girl's strengths and weaknesses are. It is easier to tell a goal scorer by looking at goals scored on the Hub. Quality players show up on the score sheet on a consistent basis. Goalies need to be evaluated in person.

[sinbin]

OGC, I would argue that both skaters and goalies need to be evaluated in person, IMHO. Who's the better player on the top-ranked teams? One who scores 40 goals against inferior opposition, where many games are 9-1, 12-0, etc. -- or one who scores 20 goals against 90% top-20 opposition in a lot of 3-1 games. You can guess which one has a D1 scholarship and which one doesn't.

Also, back to the SOG discussion, I think that the consensus discussion has the SOG definitions basically correct. I think most of those volunteers do a fine job on goals and assists (listen to the refs), and running the clock, but in my 15 years of taking stats, I'd say only 20% max do an accurate job of recording SOGs. I'd also note that the errors go both directions - both too many SOGs recorded and not enough SOGs recorded, so in some instances they may actually be helping the goalies' stats. At the end of the day, the goalies' performance still must be evaluated by scouts. In any event, I haven't lost any sleep over poor SOG tallying.

[MN_Bowhunter]

I agree if a kid is D1 caliber the scouts will fiind him/her. A different poster brought up recruiting, I'm a long ways from worrying about colleges. I disagree that it's not important enough to expect people to do a good job. If your forward only got credit for 75% of their points would you or he or she be upset?

Orm, I notice you like to complain about my complaining, maybe you can start volunteering to moderate this forum?

Sorry if I get bored with Krach updates and guess the winner threads...

[mnhcp]

Agree with BOWHUNTER 100%. If someone is going to have the nerve to post statistics online, broadcast them or whatever....get them right! Whether official or not.

Obviously there is so much more then stats: Does coach roll 4 lines or play 2 lines? Does better goalie face the better ranked teams and the secondary goalie face the lesser teams? Which line do the girls play on? On and on. How you going to read between the lines if the stats aren't even right? They are a tool in the scouting process.

I know of a girl who got her first and only high school goal as an 8th grader (she was a D). It was a breakaway shot, announced over the PA system correctly. Yet on the hub, the goal was credited to someone else. Trust me, for the girl who got her first and only H.S. Goal it was important! However, no one seemed to care....especially the girl incorrectly credited. So, it's not all about us daddys.....If we're going to put this stuff in the newspaper, on the web, get the damn stats right or don't do them at all.

[MNHockeyFan]

I know of a girl who got her first and only high school goal as an 8th grader (she was a D). It was a breakaway shot, announced over the PA system correctly. Yet on the hub, the goal was credited to someone else. Trust me, for the girl who got her first and only H.S. Goal it was important! However, no one seemed to care....especially the girl incorrectly credited. So, it's not all about us daddys.....If we're going to put this stuff in the newspaper, on the web, get the damn stats right or don't do them at all.

The girl's coach should have corrected it.

[mnhcp]

I know of a girl who got her first and only high school goal as an 8th grader (she was a D). It was a breakaway shot, announced over the PA system correctly. Yet on the hub, the goal was credited to someone else. Trust me, for the girl who got her first and only H.S. Goal it was important! However, no one seemed to care....especially the girl incorrectly credited. So, it's not all about us daddys.....If we're going to put this stuff in the newspaper, on the web, get the damn stats right or don't do them at all.

The girl's coach should have corrected it.

It eventually did get corrected as I forced the issue but got the mantra, "stats don't matter, who cares".

[hockeya1a]

from Wikipedia: to keep it simple! (In ice hockey, a shot on goal is a shot that will enter the goal if it is not stopped by the goaltender. A shot on goal must result in either a goal or a save.) My take , a stat is a stat no matter if it is for a player or a goalie. There will always be that questionable one, of would that have gone in or not? maybe if you don't count it the one time maybe count it the next time.

[MNHockeyFan]

from Wikipedia: to keep it simple! (In ice hockey, a shot on goal is a shot that will enter the goal if it is not stopped by the goaltender.

There is one exception. Anyone guess what it is?

[ghshockeyfan]

Maybe already mentioned - but pipe/crossbar shots seem to create confusion for scorekeepers at times. I also know goalies that accidentally fire the puck in their own net when trying to play it has caused statistical save/shot confusion.

There is way too much emphasis on stats IMHO with technology these days and being able to track a kid's stats from cradle (Mites) to grave (SR Adult) now. And this is coming from a guy that would review tape after games just to get the stats right - not just G, A, PTS scoring sequences - but +/- etc.

That all being said, as a former HS/college coach, and my wife being a former college goaltender and current HS coach, it is nice when the goalie (or any) stats are at least semi- accurate.

And, I agree that SV % is important but so too is consideration of QSC (Quality Scoring Chances) or quality shots faced as mentioned above.

College coaches will find the worthy players unless you are intentionally trying to hide from them and even then you probably won't be able to.

Don't get too worried about stats.

[Gov78]

I've done a lot of stats albeit not at the HS level but you have to remember that often the stats guy is in at the score's box and often players and other in the penalty box and benches obscure their view.

No one purposely short changes the goalie on saves as I've always recorded them as a puck that could've gone in the net.

On the few occasions I've done stats from above there's a lot of shots that the goalie stops or controls that never would've went in the net so no save but from ice level that's hard to see.

as others have said, don't get hung up on stats as it really isn't that important.

[burnt toast]

College coaches will find the worthy players unless you are intentionally trying to hide from them and even then you probably won't be able to.

Don't get too worried about stats.

You give coaches way to much credit. Stats on the hub do matter. If a player isnt going to national camp or naha they will not get exposed unless the coach makes it happen and there are only a few well connected coaches. The national camp process is as dirty as it gets. What does that leave you with? Why do you think the wingers pad their stats so much, because it works (3 assists per goal and 1st line running up the score late).

[hockeya1a]

College coaches will find the worthy players unless you are intentionally trying to hide from them and even then you probably won't be able to.

Don't get too worried about stats.

You give coaches way to much credit. Stats on the hub do matter. If a player isnt going to national camp or naha they will not get exposed unless the coach makes it happen and there are only a few well connected coaches. The national camp process is as dirty as it gets. What does that leave you with? Why do you think the wingers pad their stats so much, because it works (3 assists per goal and 1st line running up the score late).

Agree and Not all coaches are created equal! there are a few coaches that are very involved in getting the girls seen. and some have no idea!

And not all stat keepers are bad some are very good at what they do but some really have no clue! I guess my point is either you count them right or not at all, and to the kids they are important.

[ghshockeyfan]

College coaches will find the worthy players unless you are intentionally trying to hide from them and even then you probably won't be able to.

Don't get too worried about stats.

You give coaches way to much credit. Stats on the hub do matter. If a player isnt going to national camp or naha they will not get exposed unless the coach makes it happen and there are only a few well connected coaches. The national camp process is as dirty as it gets. What does that leave you with? Why do you think the wingers pad their stats so much, because it works (3 assists per goal and 1st line running up the score late).

Agree and Not all coaches are created equal! there are a few coaches that are very involved in getting the girls seen. and some have no idea!

And not all stat keepers are bad some are very good at what they do but some really have no clue! I guess my point is either you count them right or not at all, and to the kids they are important.

I was reminded that I've been "retired" now for five years - so maybe my take on this is outdated.

I don't recall too many D1 level players getting overlooked over the years and the D3 coaches usually work darn hard to get the next best thing - or so was the case about five years ago.

Are the college coaches really only using (hub) stats now to find the talent? Somewhat joking here, but that's the way it is starting to sound.

Well connected coaches... Good point on this - it can go a long way to have your coach essentially acting as your agent for college recruitment, and especially if they know a larger number of the college coaches. I seriously mean this. It can help a lot. However, a coach still has to answer some tough questions honestly about their players when the colleges come calling unless they want to destroy their future credibility with college coaches.

Lastly - you can easily tell the teams that "pad the stats." They are the ones with almost exactly total assists = 2x goal total. Unless they are truly that much more talented than the opposition and move the puck that well on nearly every goal. There are some teams that are notorious for this and I smile to this day every time I look at their box scores.

[sinbin]

And of course several of those teams even occasionally try to get away with 3 assists for some goals. This is mostly facetious, of course, but I have actually seen this on a scoresheet or two over the years. I'm sure that these were purely accidental.

[Marty]

It is easier to tell a goal scorer by looking at goals scored on the Hub. Quality players show up on the score sheet on a consistent basis. Goalies need to be evaluated in person.

Not always. Plenty of top scorers get too many of their points against low end teams. High stats on the hub may get you a look, but if you are generating 3 - 5 points in a 8-1 game and barely a thing in a 2-1 game ... that will generate concern.

Some HS coaches (boys and girls) play their 1st line every other shift and long times on PP. This starts to "inflate" stats if the coach continues this behavior in games that are already won. Why not play 3rd and (god forbid) 4th line skaters in varsity games that are essentially over after 1 or 2 periods of hockey.

Plenty of top scores on HS teams walk into elite situations and realize they are quickly looking like they belong more on 3rd line - checking line. All is not lost though.... If they are solid in all aspects of forward play, their backchecking skills may show and they get recruited anyways.

[ghshockeyfan]

It is easier to tell a goal scorer by looking at goals scored on the Hub. Quality players show up on the score sheet on a consistent basis. Goalies need to be evaluated in person.

Not always. Plenty of top scorers get too many of their points against low end teams. High stats on the hub may get you a look, but if you are generating 3 - 5 points in a 8-1 game and barely a thing in a 2-1 game ... that will generate concern.

Some HS coaches (boys and girls) play their 1st line every other shift and long times on PP. This starts to "inflate" stats if the coach continues this behavior in games that are already won. Why not play 3rd and (god forbid) 4th line skaters in varsity games that are essentially over after 1 or 2 periods of hockey.

Plenty of top scores on HS teams walk into elite situations and realize they are quickly looking like they belong more on 3rd line - checking line. All is not lost though.... If they are solid in all aspects of forward play, their backchecking skills may show and they get recruited anyways.

A number of years ago someone suggested that we scale goals/points scored by the quality of the opponent faced to create a more meaningful metric. College coaches already do this when they look at stats. The flaw in doing so was that some teams play their first line best players deep into the final shifts of the third period of a blowout picking up meaningless inflated points (which I believe is asking for trouble due to possibility for injury, blowing chances to develop other players, etc. - but that's an aside). This is another head shaker for me and I saw it happen this week in a blowout where the top line scored a goal in the final minute of the game. I know some will argue the other side of this but this is my opinion FWIW.

[Bullgod]

I saw in the Tribune today that HM put up sixty shots on Tartan. Scoring four times. Curious, because of this thread, I took a look at the games stats for Tartan. If you look Tartan gets terribly outshot at home compared to on the road. I am guessing there are a few phantom shots that get counted at home. I can't believe a team is consistently outplayed at home compared to on the road. My guess is the scorekeeper's are inflating the stats to keep the save% up there.
Its too bad because shes a pretty good goalie,doesn't need the extra help.

[ghshockeyfan]

I saw in the Tribune today that HM put up sixty shots on Tartan. Scoring four times. Curious, because of this thread, I took a look at the games stats for Tartan. If you look Tartan gets terribly outshot at home compared to on the road. I am guessing there are a few phantom shots that get counted at home. I can't believe a team is consistently outplayed at home compared to on the road. My guess is the scorekeeper's are inflating the stats to keep the save% up there.
Its too bad because shes a pretty good goalie,doesn't need the extra help.

As a sanity check - assuming the same scorekeepers are used for boys and girls games at home for Tartan which isn't for certain the case - you could look at the Tartan boys team to see if the same is observed on the boys side.