MN Girls Hockey Hub

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:05 am

SECoach wrote:Both of these sites rely on someone to enter the information. In some cases the person responsible for that knows what they are doing. In many cases they don't. If they do know what they are doing, they are relying on a score sheet that may have been prepared by someone that knows what they are doing, and in many cases they don't. It might be the father of a goalie responsible for keeping or entering the stats. It might be someone the rink attendant found available in the parking lot that night. It might be a coach that doesn't give a crap. Bottom line is this is not the NHL and getting stats recorded correctly, and then posted on either one of these sights is a crap shoot at best. There are not professionals hired to do this. How about we get over it and realize that the assist your daughter did not get credit for will not make or break her career. You worrying about it may in fact make her career suck! Who won, who lost, pretty much sums it up. If that's what you are into, you either did, or you didn't.

The dispute over where stats should be entered? Look at the one that makes you feel the best. That's all we are looking for anyway isn't it?
SECoach, with all due respect, this is really a crappy (negative) post. In this day and age, it shouldn't be too much to expect timely and accurate posting of scores and game stats - it really should have absolutely nothing to do with making sure little Suzie gets credit for all of her second assists or phantom shots on goal. But unfortunately this year we've seem to have taken a step backwards. Either those responsible for entering the scoresheet info have not been properly trained, or for some reason they are not reporting it correctly to both sites...if we must live with two sites the info should be identicle. And I still have not heard why it was necessary for the MGHCA to add their own site, which to me seems to have created an unnecessary complication.

SECoach
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Post by SECoach » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:15 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:
SECoach wrote:Both of these sites rely on someone to enter the information. In some cases the person responsible for that knows what they are doing. In many cases they don't. If they do know what they are doing, they are relying on a score sheet that may have been prepared by someone that knows what they are doing, and in many cases they don't. It might be the father of a goalie responsible for keeping or entering the stats. It might be someone the rink attendant found available in the parking lot that night. It might be a coach that doesn't give a crap. Bottom line is this is not the NHL and getting stats recorded correctly, and then posted on either one of these sights is a crap shoot at best. There are not professionals hired to do this. How about we get over it and realize that the assist your daughter did not get credit for will not make or break her career. You worrying about it may in fact make her career suck! Who won, who lost, pretty much sums it up. If that's what you are into, you either did, or you didn't.

The dispute over where stats should be entered? Look at the one that makes you feel the best. That's all we are looking for anyway isn't it?
SECoach, with all due respect, this is really a crappy (negative) post. In this day and age, it shouldn't be too much to expect timely and accurate posting of scores and game stats - it really should have absolutely nothing to do with making sure little Suzie gets credit for all of her second assists or phantom shots on goal. But unfortunately this year we've seem to have taken a step backwards. Either those responsible for entering the scoresheet info have not been properly trained, or for some reason they are not reporting it correctly to both sites...if we must live with two sites the info should be identicle. And I still have not heard why it was necessary for the MGHCA to add their own site, which to me seems to have created an unnecessary complication.
It is what I will call reality my friend. By the way, the MGHA site was there before the HUB.

You clearly have no idea how things work from rink to rink and team to team. You clearly have never noticed the goalies mom or dad keeping track of the shots at a game. You clearly have never seen a rink manager trying to find a body to man the scoresheet as the puck drops. The bottom line is that the impression of what you all think should happen is not the reality. Go crazy over the stats if you like. I will not go so far as to say they are never right, but I will stake my life on what you are looking at is very, very rarely right. I will take it one step further and say that it only matters to the fantasy girls hockey players anyway. Move on and enjoy the game.

BluehawkHockey
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Post by BluehawkHockey » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:45 am

I could care less about whether the stats are correct. How about just entering the score. Sure it would be nice to know who scored and who was in the net too, but it really doesn't matter.

I noticed this on Wednesday on one of the sites. I was scrolling through the games and scores at the top of the site. I think I noticed two games that were still showing as in progress from the night before. One was Mounds View/SLP and I think the other was BSM/Breck.

I just checked again and Spring Lake Park has had two games but the scores for both games haven't been entered yet. If the coach/booster club don't care enough to even enter the scores, maybe you should just shut the program down.

State Champ 97
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Post by State Champ 97 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:12 am

If the stats are going to be online for for public viewing, they need to be accurate. One site should be sufficient and coaches should be using it. Some coaches don't even bother to put results and rosters in for MSHSL. Pathetic.

State Champ 97
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Post by State Champ 97 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:13 am

And FYI the Hub is extremely inaccurate.

hockeyfan21
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Post by hockeyfan21 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:22 am

SECoach wrote: I wish there was a volleyball site, so I could read the arguments about who gets the kills recorded correctly and who doesn't.

The dispute over where stats should be entered? Look at the one that makes you feel the best. That's all we are looking for anyway isn't it?
I actually wish they would all go away... I'm tired of another outlet for crazy parents to complain about their kids numbers.

The argument that a kid will get "discovered" by a D-1 school because of their stats on the hub is hilarious...

mnprephubs
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Post by mnprephubs » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:43 pm

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I wanted to get a message out to clear up some of the conversation.

I can speak to the posting of stats and scores on the Girls Hockey Hub. We maintain a staff of statisticians on-call each game night. It is their job to track down missing scores, take calls from coaches, enter box scores from email, etc. Our stats team will also do outreach - as it has done every season - to coaches and teams that are missing data to try to fill in the blanks throughout the season. For the past two years this has results in more than 90 percent of games stats and scores being accounted for.

Again if there are more questions, feel free to reach out to me directly.
Eric Ebert
National Media Manager
Sport Ngin

sinbin
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Post by sinbin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:08 pm

It's not rocket science, so we don't have to worry about a rocket ship being only "90% reliable", but until all of the local teams take some pride in their accuracy and performance, there will always be some underlying GIGO unless the crack team of statisticians is large enough to attend every venue.

Nordic
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Post by Nordic » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:23 pm

Eric Ebert - Do members, or coaches need to pay to belong or post onto the Trib Hub? As when I looked onto the MGHCA site, it looks like a charge of $110 needs to be paid with the application. Seems weird that a charge would be needed for that. At 60 members that's $6600 per year. Just using that as an example, not sure how many. Still multiplied over many years, a lot of money. Add the Jr fest, senior fest. Not a bad enterprise. I wish I was running it.

observer
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Post by observer » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:02 pm

I wish I was running it.
You wish you were running the Coaches Association?

SECoach
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Post by SECoach » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:05 pm

mnprephubs wrote:Sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I wanted to get a message out to clear up some of the conversation.

I can speak to the posting of stats and scores on the Girls Hockey Hub. We maintain a staff of statisticians on-call each game night. It is their job to track down missing scores, take calls from coaches, enter box scores from email, etc. Our stats team will also do outreach - as it has done every season - to coaches and teams that are missing data to try to fill in the blanks throughout the season. For the past two years this has results in more than 90 percent of games stats and scores being accounted for.

Again if there are more questions, feel free to reach out to me directly.
Why the two sites now? There used to be the MGHCA site, that became the HUB, and now there are both. What's up with that?

I will follow up with either site is only as good as the people keeping the score sheets, and then entering the info to whichever site. The stats are very far from accurate for that reason. Heck, even if someone cared to enter them accurately, they would need to be able to read Sanskrit.

greybeard58
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Post by greybeard58 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:33 am

Add Premier Prep League, CCM NIT, Development Camp plus their fingers are firmly grabbing a hold of the Mn Hockey High Performance program if you play nice you can coach there.
Follow the money.
Maybe it is time for an audit!

Otter
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Post by Otter » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:01 am

SECoach wrote:

I will follow up with either site is only as good as the people keeping the score sheets, and then entering the info to whichever site. The stats are very far from accurate for that reason. Heck, even if someone cared to enter them accurately, they would need to be able to read Sanskrit.
Speaking of which, everyone who believes Lakeville North outshot CDH 47-10 in their 3-0 win at Ames last night please stand on your head.......

sinbin
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Post by sinbin » Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:27 pm

Well, I know this is too much to ask, but we provide training for time clock and scorebook work, since this is performed by volunteers. We also require that they have some experience so are not learning on the job. I also imagine that each team keeps their own stats, so you could make a quick comparison after each game between those and the "official" scorebook. Or course, this is still not NHL quality record-keeping, but for this level, it's pretty accurate. All it takes is a little bit of work, commitment, and pride. It doesn't solve all of the problems and a "rogue statistician" could still throw a monkey wrench into things (I think that thumbscrews are still frowned upon and seem to me, a bit harrsh), but it works pretty well all things considered. I do understand that not all teams are willing to make even that level of commitment, though.

SECoach
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Post by SECoach » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:04 pm

sinbin wrote:Well, I know this is too much to ask, but we provide training for time clock and scorebook work, since this is performed by volunteers. We also require that they have some experience so are not learning on the job. I also imagine that each team keeps their own stats, so you could make a quick comparison after each game between those and the "official" scorebook. Or course, this is still not NHL quality record-keeping, but for this level, it's pretty accurate. All it takes is a little bit of work, commitment, and pride. It doesn't solve all of the problems and a "rogue statistician" could still throw a monkey wrench into things (I think that thumbscrews are still frowned upon and seem to me, a bit harrsh), but it works pretty well all things considered. I do understand that not all teams are willing to make even that level of commitment, though.
There you go.

mnprephubs
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Post by mnprephubs » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:22 am

Nordic wrote:Eric Ebert - Do members, or coaches need to pay to belong or post onto the Trib Hub? As when I looked onto the MGHCA site, it looks like a charge of $110 needs to be paid with the application. Seems weird that a charge would be needed for that. At 60 members that's $6600 per year. Just using that as an example, not sure how many. Still multiplied over many years, a lot of money. Add the Jr fest, senior fest. Not a bad enterprise. I wish I was running it.
There is absolutely no fee required to view or post anything on the MN Girls Hockey Hub. To post some comments and edit pages (for coaches or teams) you would need to register a profile on the platform, but that is also free of charge.

To my knowledge, the content on the MGHCA site also is free. I would assume the registration you are referring to is for coaches registering to be members of the association, but that's really a question for the association.
Eric Ebert
National Media Manager
Sport Ngin

mnprephubs
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Post by mnprephubs » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:32 am

[quote="SECoach"

Why the two sites now? There used to be the MGHCA site, that became the HUB, and now there are both. What's up with that?

[/quote]

It really comes down to the coaches wanting to have an access point for editing and loading stats from their site (MGHCA.com) and the Star Tribune needing an access point from their site for print publication reasons. When data is shared between two sites, only one can be the edit point. Because of that sticking point, the coaches chose to also create their own site with league data.
Eric Ebert
National Media Manager
Sport Ngin

leftwing
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Post by leftwing » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:16 pm

It really comes down to the coaches wanting to have an access point for editing and loading stats from their site (MGHCA.com) and the Star Tribune needing an access point from their site for print publication reasons. When data is shared between two sites, only one can be the edit point. Because of that sticking point, the coaches chose to also create their own site with league data.
NOT a surprise. MGHCA had a perfectly elegant solution in the Hockey Hub of the last several years. Most teams were entering stats correctly, and the visual look and feel improved each year. Since they couldn't get all they wanted, they took their marbles and created a new site. The only good news is that they used TST Media to create the site. That way the poor coach or parent doesn't have to learn to use two different sites.

Again, I will call it a very stupid decision.

Getting "Susie's" second assist wasn't as important as getting the overall numbers right (but it wasn't totally unimportant, either). Goals and assists aren't *the* most important part of the game, but they are important. It's fair to expect the scorekeepers to be accurate (I've done it many times - not that hard, but important to do well), and for the coaches to enter the stats in a timely, accurate manner. Multiple sites *once again* introduces unnecessary complications and inaccuracies.

I don't think anyone expected a D1 coach to come knocking because of Hockey Hub data - but the girls have a reasonable expectation that the data will be accurate.

Let me also say that I've worked with Eric at TST Media, and he's excellent. They are very professional over there and the quality of their sites is first-rate. I'm reasonably sure working on this split has tempted him to spit nails at times....

Ram Hockey
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Hockey Hub - MGHCA Sites

Post by Ram Hockey » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:41 am

Coming from a media side of things I can tell you media outlets use these sites for game prep to make our broadcasts as accurate as possible. The Hockey Hub for the boys side has been great in the past and schools have done a great job of getting accurate information published in a timely manner. Why does the MGHCA have to try recreate the wheel?

NotMuchToSay
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Post by NotMuchToSay » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:05 pm

It is my understanding that the MGHCA site was created before there was ever a Star Tribune Girls Hockey Hub. MGHCA is not trying to RE-create anything.

NearWestSide
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MGHCA web-site

Post by NearWestSide » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:44 am

If game is scored live or entered later with the stats on the MGHCA web-site, they are sent out to most other media outlets, including Girl's Hockey Hub. It doesn't seem to go the other way.

hockeyfan21
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Post by hockeyfan21 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:18 am

Not all teams have even entered their rosters on the MGHCA site, which makes it impossible to do more than enter a final score.

NearWestSide
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Post by NearWestSide » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:58 pm

We are lucky, I checked all the teams we play and only one team has not entered their roster...I thought I would make-up a goalie name and a few players so that I can put in shots, penalties, and goals that they might score....I will have their roster on game day or might get it before so I could do better than that I guess

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:58 pm

NearWestSide wrote:We are lucky, I checked all the teams we play and only one team has not entered their roster...I thought I would make-up a goalie name and a few players so that I can put in shots, penalties, and goals that they might score....I will have their roster on game day or might get it before so I could do better than that I guess
You could check the State High School League site to see if that team's roster is shown there:

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/rosters.asp?actnum=460

luckyEPDad
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Post by luckyEPDad » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:30 pm

I'm impressed by the efficiency of Minnesota HS hockey players. Everyone scores every time they shoot. But when looking at goalie stats where are all those extra shots coming from?

Confused

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