Andover Goalie MR trying out for the boys team?

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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hockey21
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Andover Goalie MR trying out for the boys team?

Post by hockey21 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:10 pm

Any truth to her switching over to the boys program? if so that weakens that net for the girls team.

CoyoteWheels
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Re: Andover Goalie MR trying out for the boys team?

Post by CoyoteWheels » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:21 pm

hockey21 wrote:Any truth to her switching over to the boys program? if so that weakens that net for the girls team.
Kudos to her for doing what she can to get ready for college puck:)

Can't we all just love one another:)

hockey21
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Post by hockey21 » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:59 am

I was just asking if there was any truth to it. I wish her the best of luck

mulefarm
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Post by mulefarm » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:02 pm

If she doesn't make the boys team, can she go back to the girls team?

ElDiablo
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I think that is possible.

Post by ElDiablo » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:26 pm

...

Daulton21
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Post by Daulton21 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:41 pm

Asking because I do not know the answer. could a boy actually tryout for the girls team, in the same manner as a girl trying out for a boys team? I assume a boy potentially loses a spot to play.

LZ94
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Post by LZ94 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:43 am

Daulton21 wrote:Asking because I do not know the answer. could a boy actually tryout for the girls team, in the same manner as a girl trying out for a boys team? I assume a boy potentially loses a spot to play.
Most sports are set up that girls can play boys, but boys can't play girls. I believe technically boys hockey is called just 'hockey' for mshsl purposes, because girls can play, but girls hockey is called 'girls hockey' to insure that it is gender specific.

A different example is that boys can't play volleyball on a girls team, but a girl can play football with the boys. #titleix

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:46 am

I think she's already playing? We saw her with the boys this summer. She's outstanding.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:07 am

I assume a boy potentially loses a spot to play.
This is in the top 10 of my favorite ignorant statements.

Froggy Richards
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Post by Froggy Richards » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:09 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
I assume a boy potentially loses a spot to play.
This is in the top 10 of my favorite ignorant statements.
Why is it ignorant? It's true. If she makes the team a boy loses a spot.

I've always thought it was kind of odd that girls can play on boy's teams but boy's can't play on girls. I would have to think that if someone ever challenged this they would have a case. The only reason it will never happen is because who would set themselves up as the poster child for, "My son got beat out by a girl."

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:36 am

You've done a nice job answering your own question.

So, if a 9th grader gets the varsity job, will the senior petition to play bantams. I've always thought it was kind of odd that a bantam can play on a high school team, but high school kids can't play on bantams.

nu2hockey
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Post by nu2hockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:40 am

Technically, she earns a spot on the roster and beats out another player for that spot. The player losing the competition could be male or female. Realistically it is probably a boy. So what, if she is the better player for the team that is all that matters. It is possible the player was advised to compete for a position on the best team she can.

Froggy Richards
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Post by Froggy Richards » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:36 am

InigoMontoya wrote:You've done a nice job answering your own question.

So, if a 9th grader gets the varsity job, will the senior petition to play bantams. I've always thought it was kind of odd that a bantam can play on a high school team, but high school kids can't play on bantams.
Okay, I'll bite. You know that argument makes no sense. Age restrictions have been part of life and accepted by society forever. You can't drive until you're 16, can't vote until you're 18, can't drink until you're 21, can't play Bantams unless you're certain age, etc. Allowing one gender to do something that is not allowed for the other is a completely different situation. I never said I disagreed with it and in fact, I really don't care. But for debate purposes, I just think that it has to be considered unfair by definition. If the roles were reversed and it were the boys being allowed something and not the girls, people would be shouting from rooftops.

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:20 am

To those who are agree and those who are outraged -
The only thing we absolutely know about this situation is she didn't seek it out. IMHO she was put in a difficult position where no matter what she decided someone would find fault in it. The ultimate rock and hard place for a great kid in a great program.

Froggy Richards
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Post by Froggy Richards » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:37 am

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:To those who are agree and those who are outraged -
The only thing we absolutely know about this situation is she didn't seek it out. IMHO she was put in a difficult position where no matter what she decided someone would find fault in it. The ultimate rock and hard place for a great kid in a great program.
She should play wherever she wants to play, that is what the rules currently allow. Nobody has the right to find any fault in her decision. The policy can be debated, but not her decision to play with the boys if that's what she wants to do.

hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:56 am

Your are talking about title IX. This law put into effect in 1972 allows for high school and collegiate girls to have the same opportunities as boys. Girls are considered the underrepresented sex and boys the overrepresented sex. This allows them to play some boys sports unless a like sport is offered for their gender.
It also states boys do not have the right to try out for a girls' team if there are more boys playing sports at your school than girls.
Since boys usually have more opportunities than girls (they are members of the overrepresented sex), a boy playing on a girls' team would take away a participation opportunity for an underrepresented sex. So in the interest of the girls, boys are not allowed to take spots on a girls' team even though the reverse is permitted. Sorry so confusing and long winded. According to the law I am not sure how this girl could do this unless there is an issue with the number of male goalies trying out but I could be wrong.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:13 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:To those who are agree and those who are outraged -
The only thing we absolutely know about this situation is she didn't seek it out. IMHO she was put in a difficult position where no matter what she decided someone would find fault in it. The ultimate rock and hard place for a great kid in a great program.
She should play wherever she wants to play, that is what the rules currently allow. Nobody has the right to find any fault in her decision. The policy can be debated, but not her decision to play with the boys if that's what she wants to do.
Agreed

MN_Bowhunter
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Post by MN_Bowhunter » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:22 pm

I hope she does play for the boys, I'm really curious to see how it all works out. I've never seen her play but everything I've heard is she's fantastic.

Having said that, I would bet that the average junior varsity boys goalie is better than 95 to 99% of the varsity girls goalies in the state.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:33 pm

Froggy Richards wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:You've done a nice job answering your own question.

So, if a 9th grader gets the varsity job, will the senior petition to play bantams. I've always thought it was kind of odd that a bantam can play on a high school team, but high school kids can't play on bantams.
Okay, I'll bite. You know that argument makes no sense. Age restrictions have been part of life and accepted by society forever. You can't drive until you're 16, can't vote until you're 18, can't drink until you're 21, can't play Bantams unless you're certain age, etc. Allowing one gender to do something that is not allowed for the other is a completely different situation. I never said I disagreed with it and in fact, I really don't care. But for debate purposes, I just think that it has to be considered unfair by definition. If the roles were reversed and it were the boys being allowed something and not the girls, people would be shouting from rooftops.
I think this is a pretty sound analogy. Title ix aside, today men are not allowed to play women's sports because, on average, they have a competitive advantage. Outside of some area in the Amazon, Africa, and Scandanavia, as man (used as a general term to denote homo sapien) has evolved, men (used to denote gender) have been selected for reproduction based on size, strength, and speed - if you don't eat, you die; if you can't feed your mate, you don't reproduce. A male in today's society, generally speaking, will become larger, stronger, and faster than a female. Nobody wants to see a dude dunking over a team of high school girls because it is neither fair nor entertaining. In addition, the laws of supply and demand for winning would find more and more boys playing girls sports until the girls were crowded out of their own sports. Similarly, male physical development occurs over time, often through the years of middle shool and high school. If a senior were allowed to play bantam hockey, he would likely have a physcial advantage over the 13 and 14 year old boys he would be competing with and against due to the additional years he has had to develop; we would not find that to be fair nor entertaining. If, on the other hand, a 14 year old boy has been fortunate enough to develop physically and is capable of competing with those years older than himself, we would find that fair and possibly entertaining. Similarly, if a female, without the advantage of a y chromosome adding hormones to her body, increasing her physical size, strength, and speed, is able to compete with boys, most of whom are supplied with said hormones, then that is fair.

Goalie-Dad
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Post by Goalie-Dad » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:43 pm

mulefarm wrote:If she doesn't make the boys team, can she go back to the girls team?
Timing questions? - Most of the Girl's team tryouts start next week. The boys tryouts are in late November. Does she tryout for both teams? If so, wouldn't there lots of conflict with girls practice and boys captains/tryout practices?

So if she does not try-out for the Girls team, and does not make the boys team. Is she eligible to go back to the Girls team? The Girls would have played several games by then. At what point is a team roster officially registered with MSHSL?

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:50 pm

Pretty sure "trying out" for either team is just a formality.

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:53 pm

But really the best thing on this thread is Inigo saying that "most" boys have male hormones.
Way to bring the lighter side to a topic that was never about Title 9. Thanks!

zambonidriver
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interesting discussion

Post by zambonidriver » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:44 pm

Allowing a girl to play on the boys side in high school is up to the school the analogy of title nine is right on the money. If Andover allows the palyer to paly it is up to them. Players can join teams at anytime during the year unlike Minnesota Hockey the only time Rosters are frozen is at playoff time. The State high school league does not require cuts, schools do this for budgetary reasons. So technically she can tryout for the boys team and if she decides she doesn't want to play on the boys side she is free to move back to the girls side.

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:54 pm

I was trying to say that this isn't about Title 9 because this talented young woman is in the fortunate or unfortunate position of being asked to play as #1 goalie on both teams. The issue isn't about whether she has a right or a choice to play men's or women's. It's not even about the men's goalie(s) who may lose their positions. It's only a little about a state tourney team goalie from last season staying with her team or moving over.

To me it's mostly about this kid and this family in an almost impossible situation. She can't choose wrong. She can't choose right. Her hard work and talent has led her to what is a very unique and maybe unheard of circumstance?

chasinghockey
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Re: interesting discussion

Post by chasinghockey » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:01 pm

zambonidriver wrote:Allowing a girl to play on the boys side in high school is up to the school the analogy of title nine is right on the money. If Andover allows the palyer to paly it is up to them. Players can join teams at anytime during the year unlike Minnesota Hockey the only time Rosters are frozen is at playoff time. The State high school league does not require cuts, schools do this for budgetary reasons. So technically she can tryout for the boys team and if she decides she doesn't want to play on the boys side she is free to move back to the girls side.
Here is the rule about Last Day to Join a Team:

2. LAST DATE TO JOIN A TEAM — To be eligible for section and state competition, a student must be a member of that school’s team not later than the fourth Monday from the official start of that sport season. Gymnasts must be on the school’s team not later than the third Monday from the official start of that season. When a sport season begins on a Monday, that day shall be counted as the first Monday.

If she chose to go back to the girls, she would need to start by Nov. 17th in order to be eligible for Sections and State.

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