Girls HS Hockey in Major Decline

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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thegreatone99
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Girls HS Hockey in Major Decline

Post by thegreatone99 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:59 am

Peeper had shared some good points, but the game is in a major decline. Once you remove a couple of metro programs and the privates what do you have left with the girls? Are there any outlining teams that will be able to pull off the wins like TRF did last year?

There have been major double digit wins and loses this year, zero representation from the Northern teams able to keep up with the resources of the metros like old powerhouses Roseau or Warroad

Breck and Blake - good thing you are both in the same region so we only have to see one team in the state. They both play as many AA teams as possible, why not jump up a class. The A tournament will be a snoozer with double digit scores in day one. I get the entire HS thing and you can't have the girls up and not the boys. But these are schools that actively recruit, their players have the means and money to do all the summer AAA tourneys, training, and unlimited games and clinics. These are the same programs where you have parents paying entities to help their girls receive a college scholarship. Do you realize this scholarship may only consist of books for the first year? Does Dodge County, Red Wing have the same resources? They are the top outstate single A programs, but struggle against the top A teams. How many times does a TRF pull off the upset? It was very fun to watch, but not very common.

Even with the big metro teams it appears the game is controlled by one or two players who simply skate coast to coast with no creativity or team purpose. The game has turned into summer AAA games with rink long rushes and see if they can score. The scoring depth after a couple of key players on each team across the board is minimal, even for the big metro teams.

There will be more co-ops in the coming years, the attitude of win at all cost and recruiting has started to diminish the game and all you have left is a couple of privates and 4-5 metro programs. Look at WBL and their youth numbers, girls numbers at the youth level are decreasing. It is only a matter of time this game disappears.

The upcoming State Tourney will be a snoozer for both classes, they participants will clearly be the haves with lopsided scores.

zambonidriver
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Re: Girls HS Hockey in Major Decline

Post by zambonidriver » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:15 am

thegreatone99 wrote:Peeper had shared some good points, but the game is in a major decline. Once you remove a couple of metro programs and the privates what do you have left with the girls? Are there any outlining teams that will be able to pull off the wins like TRF did last year?

There have been major double digit wins and loses this year, zero representation from the Northern teams able to keep up with the resources of the metros like old powerhouses Roseau or Warroad

Breck and Blake - good thing you are both in the same region so we only have to see one team in the state. They both play as many AA teams as possible, why not jump up a class. The A tournament will be a snoozer with double digit scores in day one. I get the entire HS thing and you can't have the girls up and not the boys. But these are schools that actively recruit, their players have the means and money to do all the summer AAA tourneys, training, and unlimited games and clinics. These are the same programs where you have parents paying entities to help their girls receive a college scholarship. Do you realize this scholarship may only consist of books for the first year? Does Dodge County, Red Wing have the same resources? They are the top outstate single A programs, but struggle against the top A teams. How many times does a TRF pull off the upset? It was very fun to watch, but not very common.

Even with the big metro teams it appears the game is controlled by one or two players who simply skate coast to coast with no creativity or team purpose. The game has turned into summer AAA games with rink long rushes and see if they can score. The scoring depth after a couple of key players on each team across the board is minimal, even for the big metro teams.

There will be more co-ops in the coming years, the attitude of win at all cost and recruiting has started to diminish the game and all you have left is a couple of privates and 4-5 metro programs. Look at WBL and their youth numbers, girls numbers at the youth level are decreasing. It is only a matter of time this game disappears.

The upcoming State Tourney will be a snoozer for both classes, they participants will clearly be the haves with lopsided scores.
Damn Obama!

Hard water fan
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Post by Hard water fan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:26 am

Interesting stuff. Although I support privates as they provide an additional opportunity for our ladies, I too wish they went back to a separate tournament, or bracket, like they had a number of years ago. I think it would help the numbers at the high school level for several reasons, mainly more opportunities to succeed at state which markets the sport well. Here is an interesting stat to ponder...since they created two tiers in 2002, only 5 champions in A have been public schools. If you include AA with A, only one year (2006) didn't have a private in the final. That is incredible odds considering only about 10 teams of 120 are private. The data points to a huge disparity...and advantage depending on your view point. Numerous programs are on their way out; I falls won't be around in 4 years...Eveleth, North Shore, Bemidji have the same struggle as they only have a handful of girls coming up. Parents are struggling to justify the expense when in order to compete, they have to make it a year round outflow of cash. Even Duluth is struggling for numbers at the lower levels. The Mirage is one of the exceptions with a healthy youth program. This could, in theory, be attributed to the same reason as the twin cities southwestern suburbs success...

thegreatone99
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Post by thegreatone99 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:37 pm

Hard water fan wrote:Interesting stuff. Although I support privates as they provide an additional opportunity for our ladies, I too wish they went back to a separate tournament, or bracket, like they had a number of years ago. I think it would help the numbers at the high school level for several reasons, mainly more opportunities to succeed at state which markets the sport well. Here is an interesting stat to ponder...since they created two tiers in 2002, only 5 champions in A have been public schools. If you include AA with A, only one year (2006) didn't have a private in the final. That is incredible odds considering only about 10 teams of 120 are private. The data points to a huge disparity...and advantage depending on your view point. Numerous programs are on their way out; I falls won't be around in 4 years...Eveleth, North Shore, Bemidji have the same struggle as they only have a handful of girls coming up. Parents are struggling to justify the expense when in order to compete, they have to make it a year round outflow of cash. Even Duluth is struggling for numbers at the lower levels. The Mirage is one of the exceptions with a healthy youth program. This could, in theory, be attributed to the same reason as the twin cities southwestern suburbs success...
Excellent points, I did not realize the disparity was that much between the privates and publics. Wishful thinking the HS league would ever do something to even the playing field, especially when you have the haves lobbying to maintain the same status quo. Is it really fun to watch to Blake or Breck beat up on single A smaller schools during the State Tournament? Hockey has already priced itself out to maintain a level competitive field. Hockey will go the way of softball and be eliminated from the Winter Olympics after the next Olympics will be my predict. Look at the juniors, besides Canada and the US, no one else can compete. The scores from the recent world juniors are the same that you will see at State this year. The US and Canada should have just played the best out of three to determine the champion. Was it really necessary to play Sweden, Russia and win by 6 goals?

HS girls and programs will decline and become a non-factor as people are getting tired seeing the same schools win year after year.

allhoc11
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Re: Girls HS Hockey in Major Decline

Post by allhoc11 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:13 pm

thegreatone99 wrote: The upcoming State Tourney will be a snoozer for both classes, they participants will clearly be the haves with lopsided scores.
This is usually the case, but not for the reasons you say, it has to do more with balancing the sections, or at least having a system that allows the top teams a chance to make the tourney.

skatez
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Post by skatez » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:20 pm

This isn't a HS issue. The issue is the money, time, and effort put into youth hockey (in that order). AAA hockey has created an easy network for the best kids to meet at a young age. They become friends and end up wanting to play high school with the best players, be it a mega public school or a private school. The haves and the have nots are basically already created and the gap is widening. The disparity in quality programs is a sad reality, but until the cost of youth hockey comes down its only going to get worse.

easthockeydad
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Post by easthockeydad » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:03 pm

Interesting discussion...
All privates should play AA. Lots of discussion around class A. Lets look at AA. Interesting stats since 1995 (understanding dual class started in 2002): Since 1995, How many privates were state champs in AA - TWO. How many privates were runner-up state - TWO. How many were 3rd place state - TWO. How many consolation state - ONE. Summary, of the 20 years Girls State Tourney, there have been 80 AA state tourney places: Champ, Runner-up, 3rd and consolation. Only 8 of 80 were privates. Not exactly private domination on the AA side. Interesting. Get the privates playing AA and the conversation changes dramatically. Just sayin'

MNHockeyFan
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Post by MNHockeyFan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:17 pm

skatez wrote:This isn't a HS issue. The issue is the money, time, and effort put into youth hockey (in that order). AAA hockey has created an easy network for the best kids to meet at a young age. They become friends and end up wanting to play high school with the best players, be it a mega public school or a private school.
I would add that the same issue of imbalance continues into the college, where the very top programs attract far more top-end players than the perennial bottom feeders. Or, to put it another way, more top-end players are drawn to winning programs so they can play college with the best players. In fact I don't know of any high school program that ever managed to put together a 60+ game winning streak, like the Gophers did a few years ago.
skatez wrote:The haves and the have nots are basically already created and the gap is widening. The disparity in quality programs is a sad reality, but until the cost of youth hockey comes down its only going to get worse.
I agree that high cost of hockey has been the No. 1 contributing factor to the widening imbalance of programs at the youth level. Just the cost of equipment (including skates & sticks) puts hockey out of reach for many parents. Then all the costs associated with just playing on a winter travelling team puts hockey out of reach for even more parents in many communities (inner city, many older suburbs, small outstate towns, etc.) And finally when you add the dollars associated with the many off-season training programs and AAA teams, only a relative few parents can afford to pay the bills without sacrificing in some other areas of the family budget. Small wonder why youth programs of the wealthier suburbs have more numbers and a big advantage when it comes to parents who can afford to send their kids to advanced off-season training programs and the best AAA teams.

All things considered I think the private schools actually serve to add balance - not imbalance - to high school girls hockey. The very existence of competitive private school programs tends to spread out the high-end, super-talented players. Teams like Minnetonka, Edina and Eden Prairie would be even more dominate than they are already without adding some very excellent "home grown" players to their rosters.

But I do think there is a definite "equality" issue at the Class A level, where Breck and Blake loom large. Personally I agree with the earlier suggestion that girls hockey revert to a one-class system, which would put everyone on an even playing field, regardless of enrollment size.

wolfman
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Post by wolfman » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:37 pm

Breck and Blake should be class AA. Proctor Hermantown is turning into same thing up north as far as recruiting. PH is slowing getting all the good girls to play together in about a 25 mile area. Duluth and Cloquet will suffer in the end. PH girls and Hermantown boys should also play AA at the end of the day. Says the Wolfman..

HockeyStorm
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Post by HockeyStorm » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:53 pm

I don't know exactly how you do it but Class A should be reserved for small rural programs and big city programs that have a small number of participants relative to the student body. Privates would have to apply to play in Class A based on numbers; a school like Minnehaha for example should be allowed to play in A. Any program with 30+ skaters in the over the past 3 seasons should be required to play AA.

Girls hockey definitely has a lack of parity from top to bottom and something needs to be done to help it.

Hard water fan
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Post by Hard water fan » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:21 am

Wolfman has a point regarding Hermantown/ Mirage. Although the word recruiting can be used loosely...the Mirage has definitely attracted kids from mainly Duluth, mostly open enrolled in 9th grade or earlier...mostly. The comparison to privates in the metro isn't really fair though, when looking at the close proximity of the schools and the rural nature of the area. That being said, it opens the question. Let's pretend Hermantown boys moved up. They would never be able to compete with the likes of Edina or the privates. Thus, by staying at A, they have what is considered a successful program which becomes mostly self sustaining. Successes are the driving factor in much of this. Even the Mirage with its recent success, it doesn't even compare to the likes of Blake, Breck, SPU etc. regarding players living outside of the schools geographic footprint. The State tournament is the best marketing a team can do to promote it's program. That's why, unless something changes to equalize the parity, the privates will continue to dominate, especially at the A level. When you combine inherent wealth, unlimited geographic market, a history of winning... well, as I said earlier, the numbers don't lie. Only one year since the inception of the two class system was there not private school representation in the Championship at either the A or AA level, with around a 10 to 120 ratio of privates versus public. That's a crazy stat.

thegreatone99
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Post by thegreatone99 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:51 am

The State tournament is the best marketing a team can do to promote it's program. That's why, unless something changes to equalize the parity, the privates will continue to dominate, especially at the A level.

All excellent points, and unfortunately why the State tournament especially for the Class A will be a snoozer. The demographics in MN do not support or cheer for the privileged kids from Blake or Breck or SPU holding a trophy that was bought and recruited. The repetition of these schools competing for the A title every year demonstrates everything that is wrong with today's game and why you will continue to see programs co-op or disappear all together. The reason last year's tourney was a success, you finally had a team to cheer for and was clearly the underdog -TRF. The entire arena except for a small group of fans was very happy to see Blake get beat. I am sorry, but no one wants to see these schools win another class A title! Either make them move up or have them play in their own tournament that they can pay for.

LZ94
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Post by LZ94 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:09 am

A solution to the lack of parity.

Every girl at a private school lives within a public school system and has a high school they are "supposed" to attend had they gone public. Assign each girl an enrollment from where they "would" have attended and find the average of all players for the enrollment the private school team.

Let's say that Blake is made up of 10 girls that should have attended a school with an enrollment of 3000, 10 with an enrollment of 2700 and 10 with an enrollment of 1000. When you average where they came from it comes to and enrollment of 2333, thus they should be AA.

You could even do this with Co-ops if you'd like. For example if the Mirage get 10 girls from Proctor (474) and 20 from Hermantown (614), you could use a weighted average to get an average of 567, still class A.

But, the Spring Lake Park/Coon Rapids coop, would land in AA by using the 1300 for SLP and 1700 for CR, your weighted average would still put them up to AA.

These coops are being formed because their aren't enough girls to field a team, not to make super-powers. By using this system some coops would move down to A from AA, rightfully so, and most of the privates would move up, rightfully so.

pepperpot
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Post by pepperpot » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:41 am

No one from Cloquet is going to Hermantown. We play AA and with new coaches is doing good. The silver spooners can complain if they want but everyone knows. All the privates do is recruit.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:58 am

LZ94 wrote:A solution to the lack of parity.

Every girl at a private school lives within a public school system and has a high school they are "supposed" to attend had they gone public. Assign each girl an enrollment from where they "would" have attended and find the average of all players for the enrollment the private school team.

Let's say that Blake is made up of 10 girls that should have attended a school with an enrollment of 3000, 10 with an enrollment of 2700 and 10 with an enrollment of 1000. When you average where they came from it comes to and enrollment of 2333, thus they should be AA.

You could even do this with Co-ops if you'd like. For example if the Mirage get 10 girls from Proctor (474) and 20 from Hermantown (614), you could use a weighted average to get an average of 567, still class A.

But, the Spring Lake Park/Coon Rapids coop, would land in AA by using the 1300 for SLP and 1700 for CR, your weighted average would still put them up to AA.

These coops are being formed because their aren't enough girls to field a team, not to make super-powers. By using this system some coops would move down to A from AA, rightfully so, and most of the privates would move up, rightfully so.
That is how the MSHSL used to do it except for privates. Remember now some Privates opt up CDH, Hill, and BSM, all enrollment wise would be A schools.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:07 am

This is the same problem that has been plaguing the MSHSL since the early 80's when school consolidation became prevalent. About the same time as School budgets became tied to enrollment numbers forcing the outstate schools to consolidate just to survive and the metro districts to make super powers. I remember Edina East and West, the 3 Bloomington schools, Eisenhower and Lindbergh, WBL and Mariner. If you remember during those days you did not see the private school dominance actually the privates were struggling. It wasn't until the 80's that the privates started to emerge as powerhouses because of the limited opportunities in the big burbs. That and other issues have lead to this situation

thegreatone99
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Post by thegreatone99 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:08 am

LZ94 wrote:A solution to the lack of parity.

Every girl at a private school lives within a public school system and has a high school they are "supposed" to attend had they gone public. Assign each girl an enrollment from where they "would" have attended and find the average of all players for the enrollment the private school team.

Let's say that Blake is made up of 10 girls that should have attended a school with an enrollment of 3000, 10 with an enrollment of 2700 and 10 with an enrollment of 1000. When you average where they came from it comes to and enrollment of 2333, thus they should be AA.

You could even do this with Co-ops if you'd like. For example if the Mirage get 10 girls from Proctor (474) and 20 from Hermantown (614), you could use a weighted average to get an average of 567, still class A.

But, the Spring Lake Park/Coon Rapids coop, would land in AA by using the 1300 for SLP and 1700 for CR, your weighted average would still put them up to AA.

These coops are being formed because their aren't enough girls to field a team, not to make super-powers. By using this system some coops would move down to A from AA, rightfully so, and most of the privates would move up, rightfully so.

Very interesting and makes sense. Blake and Breck have more Div I commits than most big schools, but yet stay in Class A for State Tourney. We do they both try to fill their schedules with Class AA schools all season? Why not just opt up? If schools were smart they would not schedule them and force them to move up. Does this look like a great 1st day at the tourney and we have parity? There should never be a score of 9-0 in a state tourney game, these are supposed to be the best of the best. Why the girl's game has major flaws now

Hutchinson
0
Blake
9


Alexandria
0
Red Wing
3


New Ulm
1
Thief River Falls
5


Hibbing/Chisholm
1
South St Paul
5

maristar
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Post by maristar » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:43 am

At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare

thegreatone99
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Post by thegreatone99 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:30 pm

maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
Typical repli form an entitled paraent, avoid the subjec why your team should not mofe up and attack. I hope you feel much better, don't worri their are more wins your undermatched gurls can capture

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:49 pm

thegreatone99 wrote:
maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
Typical repli form an entitled paraent, avoid the subjec why your team should not mofe up and attack. I hope you feel much better, don't worri their are more wins your undermatched gurls can capture
Damn Obama!

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:01 pm

I am sure the privates do recruit just another place for girls to play. Wayzata has an enrollment of 3200 kids of those 3200 kids say half are girls. 1600 girl students at Wayzata. Say 60 kids tryout and they keep 30 that leaves 30 kids on the outside looking in. Maybe they lose 4 to a private school. you still have 34 kids to fill the void. The kids can do the math. That is why you have numbers problems after 12's. If by your 2nd year of 12's you are not on an A team your future as a female hockey player is pretty much done in MN. Boys it is a little different. More teams more opportunities more kids playing the game. You don't think parents of girls youth players don't start counting noses 2nd year of 10's then your head is in the sand.

maristar
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Post by maristar » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:34 pm

thegreatone99 wrote:
maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
Typical repli form an entitled paraent, avoid the subjec why your team should not mofe up and attack. I hope you feel much better, don't worri their are more wins your undermatched gurls can capture

Not sure that a person who spent years in grad school, law school, med school or built a business up by hours and hours of hard work should be called entitled. Only people who don't understand the amount of work it takes to become "entitled" thinks that is entitlement. The line about not caring about a trophy addresses the "move up"; get the MSHSL to move all the private schools up, they really don't care. They're too busy creating jobs for the "non-entitled".

LZ94
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Post by LZ94 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:13 pm

maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
Darth,

Your lack of respect for the quality public schools that will rise up against your private empire will be your undoing.

-the rebels

Jeffy95
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Post by Jeffy95 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:24 pm

maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
I think you meant, "is it fare?" 😀

Kids who go to privates would turn out the same if they went to publics. If education is a priority and they are driven they will do well anywhere. It's a status thing. Very little to do with education.

royals dad
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Post by royals dad » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:22 am

maristar wrote:
thegreatone99 wrote:
maristar wrote:At a private school they're taught to spell their name there, not there taught to spell they're name their.

Perhaps that is why some parents send their child (hockey player) to a private school. It also happens to be much easier to get a roster spot at a DI or DIII school with good academics than it is with an ACT score of 18. An education is far more important than a trophy for the people who choose to spend their money on a private education; it’s called a return on investment.

The next thing I expect to hear from you morons is that the MSHSL should start busing hockey players up north to make it more fair... or it is fare
Typical repli form an entitled paraent, avoid the subjec why your team should not mofe up and attack. I hope you feel much better, don't worri their are more wins your undermatched gurls can capture

Not sure that a person who spent years in grad school, law school, med school or built a business up by hours and hours of hard work should be called entitled. Only people who don't understand the amount of work it takes to become "entitled" thinks that is entitlement. The line about not caring about a trophy addresses the "move up"; get the MSHSL to move all the private schools up, they really don't care. They're too busy creating jobs for the "non-entitled".
If people want to drop 25K to 30K a year on Junior High and High School education, more power to them. I think the whispers have always been about financial aid packages that were available to athletes even when they are not top students. I don't know if MSHSL watches that closely or at all but I think that concept (real or imagined) is what gets most people upset. When people say "recruiting" I think that is what they really mean, basically shadow athletic scholarships. If you let a low income B student in and give them tuition that happens to be a hockey player, you should have to do the same for any other person who has a similar academic and financial background that applies to your school. Does this really happen or is it just the whispers of jealous have nots? How does MSHSL monitor this or do they even care?

Locked