Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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Slap Shot
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am

Lace'emUp wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 am
Stoterau was 71st for GAA and 29th for SV% results against top opponents notwithstanding.
Can you provide the whole list of your rankings so we can all take a look? Please provide the threshold for consideration of being a top opponent (was it top 10 coaches ranking at the time they played, current rankings, top 20 KRACH, etc).
They're not my rankings. Someone previously argued on her behalf stating she's put up solid stats against the more difficult opponents her team had faced. My point was even if that is true the overall body of work doesn't look strong at all.

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:06 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am

They're not my rankings. Someone previously argued on her behalf stating she's put up solid stats against the more difficult opponents her team had faced. My point was even if that is true the overall body of work doesn't look strong at all.
What do you mean by "body of work"? Please clarify a little bit.

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:08 pm

massalsa wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:22 pm

Here is my guess (not necessarily my picks) for the final 5 (picking 6):

Wethington (winner), Kelsey King, Mannon McMahon, Kaitlyn Kotlowski, Izzy Daniel.

What do others think the final 5 will look like?
Dont know why i only picked 5 instead of 6 like I said i would above but I think that LPH got it right with their top 5. Bowlby would have been my other (easy to say now lol). She is so dangerous offensively...

https://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/994937

Lace'emUp
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by Lace'emUp » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:54 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am
Lace'emUp wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 am
Stoterau was 71st for GAA and 29th for SV% results against top opponents notwithstanding.
Can you provide the whole list of your rankings so we can all take a look? Please provide the threshold for consideration of being a top opponent (was it top 10 coaches ranking at the time they played, current rankings, top 20 KRACH, etc).
They're not my rankings. Someone previously argued on her behalf stating she's put up solid stats against the more difficult opponents her team had faced. My point was even if that is true the overall body of work doesn't look strong at all.
So the "body of work" was 71st for GAA and 29th for SV%? I'd just like to know where those numbers/rankings came from. I reported some numbers early in this thread and the total body of work looked pretty good. In my post I wrote:

"100% agree. She should've at least made the list with your above data. Not bad considering she is playing with a whole new defensive core in front of her (4 seniors last year compared to underclassman + previous JV + youth level players this year). Doing a quick tally of her career:
19W - 15L - 3T, 1031 sog, 961 sv, 70 ga, 1925 mins, 1.85 gaa, 0.932 sv%
And in the playoffs last year she was:
4W - 1L, 125 sog, 121 sv, 4 ga, 253 mins, 0.81 gaa, 0.968 sv% (and named to the state tournament all-tournament team)"

EDIT: overall body of work now 21W - 16L - 3T, 1108 sog, 1034 sv, 74 ga, 2078 min, 1.82 gaa, 0.933 sv%

MNHockeyFan
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by MNHockeyFan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:09 am

The five finalists for Ms. Hockey have been announced:

https://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/994937

Slap Shot
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by Slap Shot » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:12 am

Lace'emUp wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:54 pm
Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am
Lace'emUp wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am


Can you provide the whole list of your rankings so we can all take a look? Please provide the threshold for consideration of being a top opponent (was it top 10 coaches ranking at the time they played, current rankings, top 20 KRACH, etc).
They're not my rankings. Someone previously argued on her behalf stating she's put up solid stats against the more difficult opponents her team had faced. My point was even if that is true the overall body of work doesn't look strong at all.
So the "body of work" was 71st for GAA and 29th for SV%? I'd just like to know where those numbers/rankings came from.
https://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/leaders

Goals Against Average

1. Quinn Kuntz 0.60
2. Taylor Smith 1.09
3. Riley Pester 1.28
---
71. Mackenna Stoerau 2.67

SV%

1. Quinn Kuntz .964
2. Taylor Smith .954
3. Baleigh Shuck .946
---
29. Mackenna Stoterau .921

yolo
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by yolo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:42 am

To look at only goals against and save % and determine a goalie's talent level is moronic. I would consider both of these team statistics. If I remember correctly last year's winner was well down the list on both of these statistics. Hopefully skilled evaluators are actually seeing these goalies in action.

WBLPuck99
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by WBLPuck99 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am

yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:42 am
To look at only goals against and save % and determine a goalie's talent level is moronic. I would consider both of these team statistics. If I remember correctly last year's winner was well down the list on both of these statistics. Hopefully skilled evaluators are actually seeing these goalies in action.
I have to agree with this. All due respect to those talented goalies at the tops of these lists, but if you have a good total team around you, that possesses the puck a ton, or puts games to running time often, you instantly are going to drop the GAA. It's just very hard to evaluate, especially in girls hockey when there are a lot of "haves" and "have nots."

Secondly, I have seen games where an overmatched team ends up with 15-18 shots, but 5-8 of those are just dump ins that happen to go on net. When a team is overmatched, a lot of shots also are coming from the outside that are easy saves and rebound control is not needed.

MNHockeyFan
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by MNHockeyFan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:54 am

WBLPuck99 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am
When a team is overmatched, a lot of shots also are coming from the outside that are easy saves and rebound control is not needed.
Overall strength of schedule is also a big factor. Goalies who have a strong, defensive team in front of them, but mostly play a weaker schedule, will not see as many quality shots. Most of their saves will be fairly routine, as the opposing team will only be able to get a limited number of quality scoring opportunities. Of course the opposite holds true for goalies on comparatively weak teams that play a strong schedule...

highgloveside
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by highgloveside » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:11 pm

bodyup88 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:07 am
Well, except for maybe the Breck and East Ridge wins. Interestingly, the Bears beat the Raptors when Shearen was still in Japan.

Goaltending clearly favors WBL tomorrow. Can they limit the high danger scoring chances of Hill, especially of Kate Kaufman, Blinkhorn and Steigauf? Playing Shearen at D will help in that regard but how many minutes can she play and still stay effective?
If she can play every other shift at forward and be fine I'm sure she can play D and be fine the whole game.

Slap Shot
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by Slap Shot » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm

yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:42 am
To look at only goals against and save % and determine a goalie's talent level is moronic.
Where is it stated the award is based upon talent level? And regardless of the players playing in front of her 29th and 71st has to be taken into account. For previous winners that weren't at the top, were they Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Surely not Top 30 and Top 75.

What would be moronic would be to completely dismiss the metrics and argue subjectively she's the best talent. Good for her if she is she'll likely have a lovely college career but this award will rightfully be awarded to someone else.

yolo
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by yolo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:21 pm

Actually last year's winner from EP was ranked 39th in goals against average and 43rd in save percentage.

I was under the impression that the award was for the best goalie, not the goalie with best team statistics. I did not argue that any goalie was the best talent, I just said basing judgement on those two statistics is not a good measure. Maybe you need to go back and read who posted what because I certainly did not bring up any goalies.

Peace

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:28 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm

Where is it stated the award is based upon talent level? And regardless of the players playing in front of her 29th and 71st has to be taken into account. For previous winners that weren't at the top, were they Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Surely not Top 30 and Top 75.

What would be moronic would be to completely dismiss the metrics and argue subjectively she's the best talent. Good for her if she is she'll likely have a lovely college career but this award will rightfully be awarded to someone else.
Slap Shot,

Who is a better goalie? Lets assume all of the intangibles from USA hockey camps to GPA to community service all similar. Only difference might be school choice/commitment as only the parties involved know the level of scholarship/aid/other.

Player A:

GAA 1.93 (39th), Save % .922 (43rd), team in top 10 KRACH overall ranking

Player B:

GAA 1.38 (11th), Save % .941 (6th), team in top 10 overall KRACH ranking

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:31 pm

As a reminder, I believe this discussion started about Top 10 misses rather than WHO should win the award. So not arguing at all about who should win this.

Clearly it should be Pahl as she is going to play for the gophers (haha joke).

yolo
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by yolo » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 pm

Hi Massalsa, I know it was a joke, but I think it is wrong that a goalie is even eligible to be a finalist when they have barely even played girls high school hockey. You would hope that being a varsity goalie for 3, 4 or 5 years would be some kind of factor, but apparently not.

Peace

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:06 pm

yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 pm
Hi Massalsa, I know it was a joke, but I think it is wrong that a goalie is even eligible to be a finalist when they have barely even played girls high school hockey. You would hope that being a varsity goalie for 3, 4 or 5 years would be some kind of factor, but apparently not.

Peace
Great point yolo! No doubt that Skylar Vetter is so very, very good but has not played girls HS hockey. Maddie Rooney played in 9th & 10th grade but not in the mix for Ms Goalie (to the best of my knowledge, was she even mentioned). Will Josie come back for a shot at it (zamboni?) for her senior year next season? Goehner has been very good this year too...

Lots of questions and most are fun to discuss...love the dialogue!

massalsa
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by massalsa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm

massalsa wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:28 pm

Who is a better goalie? Lets assume all of the intangibles from USA hockey camps to GPA to community service all similar. Only difference might be school choice/commitment as only the parties involved know the level of scholarship/aid/other.

Player A:

GAA 1.93 (39th), Save % .922 (43rd), team in top 10 KRACH overall ranking

Player B:

GAA 1.38 (11th), Save % .941 (6th), team in top 10 overall KRACH ranking
Player A is last years winner Dobchuck (loved watching her play with that amazing smile the whole time!) and Player B is Stoterau from last season (Jr year) with a slightly different group of players under those Centennial jerseys than this year!

bodyup88
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by bodyup88 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:28 pm

Thanks massalsa: I loved that blind resume stuff. It just goes to show how tough and subjective the goal tending evaluation can be. Two finalists have the opportunity to shine tonight at Aldrich and Roseville - it will be interesting to see how Frank and Morgan (as well as Stoterau) play tonight.

LEGI0 M0RTIS
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by LEGI0 M0RTIS » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:04 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm
yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:42 am
To look at only goals against and save % and determine a goalie's talent level is moronic.
Where is it stated the award is based upon talent level? And regardless of the players playing in front of her 29th and 71st has to be taken into account. For previous winners that weren't at the top, were they Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Surely not Top 30 and Top 75.

What would be moronic would be to completely dismiss the metrics and argue subjectively she's the best talent. Good for her if she is she'll likely have a lovely college career but this award will rightfully be awarded to someone else.

"Says award isn't based on talent" "continues to explain why a goalie shouldn't win if they aren't talented enough"

Quit debating with yourself. Might want to check your writing for inconsistencies and contradictions before posting. One or the other buddy.

And while we're at it let's not tear down young adult women for funnzies. Maybe you should talk about some people you would like to see win instead of arguing over a hypothetical situation. I'm sure you can go find something better to do, like educating yourself on how to avoid contradicting yourself.

And haha moronic. Eloquently worded my friend.

(p.s. if this is Rob you should maybe try being a better person in general, and if not have a great day!)
:wink:

jg2112
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by jg2112 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:39 am

I think the debate over the Senior goalie award is over. My goodness, what a performance by Frank last night. Girls hockey fans will talk about that win for years. Congrats to White Bear Lake!!

hockeychopper
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by hockeychopper » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:33 am

Couldn't agree more! I've been watching Calla since U10's and what a treat to watch her play. Great goalie but even better human being. Calla has given back to these young girls in the White Bear Lake Hockey Association and been such a great role model, kudos to Calla! Mankato State is getting a good one!

LEGI0 M0RTIS
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by LEGI0 M0RTIS » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:21 am

For sure I would vote for Calla. A stand out performance on her part. A 50 save shut out in a section championship should clinch it. Well done kid. =D>

zambonidriver
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by zambonidriver » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:30 am

massalsa wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:06 pm
yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 pm
Hi Massalsa, I know it was a joke, but I think it is wrong that a goalie is even eligible to be a finalist when they have barely even played girls high school hockey. You would hope that being a varsity goalie for 3, 4 or 5 years would be some kind of factor, but apparently not.

Peace
Great point yolo! No doubt that Skylar Vetter is so very, very good but has not played girls HS hockey. Maddie Rooney played in 9th & 10th grade but not in the mix for Ms Goalie (to the best of my knowledge, was she even mentioned). Will Josie come back for a shot at it (zamboni?) for her senior year next season? Goehner has been very good this year too...

Lots of questions and most are fun to discuss...love the dialogue!
No doesn't care about awards wants to be ready for next level.

Slap Shot
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by Slap Shot » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:36 am

LEGI0 M0RTIS wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:04 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm
yolo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:42 am
To look at only goals against and save % and determine a goalie's talent level is moronic.
Where is it stated the award is based upon talent level? And regardless of the players playing in front of her 29th and 71st has to be taken into account. For previous winners that weren't at the top, were they Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Surely not Top 30 and Top 75.

What would be moronic would be to completely dismiss the metrics and argue subjectively she's the best talent. Good for her if she is she'll likely have a lovely college career but this award will rightfully be awarded to someone else.

"Says award isn't based on talent" "continues to explain why a goalie shouldn't win if they aren't talented enough"

Quit debating with yourself. Might want to check your writing for inconsistencies and contradictions before posting. One or the other buddy.

And while we're at it let's not tear down young adult women for funnzies.
There was nothing inconsistent in what I wrote as no place did I claim she wasn't talented. Also no one is tearing her down by pointing out her standing for those 2 metrics. You and others seem to be getting pretty emotional over these observations so perhaps take a step back and chill out.

bodyup88
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Re: Lets Play Hockey - Ms. Hockey + Senior Goalie of the Year. Discuss.

Post by bodyup88 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:20 am

Gotta step in and defend Slap Shot. I don't see any evidence of him tearing down any player, simply pointing out the numbers for this season. Don't see any reason to rip him/her for pointing out things that you may happen to disagree with. Clearly, the results were much better for the Centennial goalie as a junior than as a senior, albeit with a markedly different team in front of her. By the looks of it, Maple Grove and Lucy Morgan were the superior team last Friday. One thing on which I think we can all agree is that Minnesota has a very strong goalie contingent this year and that Frank has elevated above the rest of that group recently. To me, it looks like there are more good goalies than available spots to play for everybody.

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