High school programs #s in Elite league

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j4241
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High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by j4241 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Since we're yakking about the elite league, let's bring it back to high school...

What teams have strong representation across the full league? Out of a league total of roughly 160 kids (including the freshman on Gemini), I count (totally eyeballing - these may be off by 1 or 2):

Edina - 13 (9 on 19s teams + 16 Grey - by far the most)
Blake - 13 (5 on 19s + Grey)
Andover - 11 (5)
Breck - 9 (5)
Tonka - 7?
Wayzata - 5?
Holy Family - 9? (5 on Gemini)
Benilde - 5?

Other schools have meaningful numbers (EP comes to mind)? This is obviously not the world's best way to evaluate anything (it's a mix of ability + access, as opposed to just ability, and doesn't discriminate between a solid player and a star), and misses some good kids (I notice one pretty good Andover returner not playing? Some kids playing other tier 1 (Gentry, Ice Cougars)? Some national camp 15s also not in it? Obviously doesn't include the Selects Academy Edina import...), but it's interesting to me. Certainly supports that Edina/Blake/Andover are at a different level. Breck seems to be ready to field another team capable of competing at AA (at every position except parents and administration, apparently). Anyone surprised Tonka and Wayzata don't have more (assuming I counted right in the first place)?

moosepaw
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by moosepaw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:13 pm

Not sure why Wayzata and Tonka don't have more, are they leaving for private schools?

massalsa
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by massalsa » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:47 pm

j4241 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Since we're yakking about the elite league, let's bring it back to high school...

Certainly supports that Edina/Blake/Andover are at a different level. Breck seems to be ready to field another team capable of competing at AA (at every position except parents and administration, apparently).
It is partially on Breck. However I believe that most likely being jammed into Section 6AA has something to do with Breck's non-move. Why would you opt up when you can play in the Cake Eater Christmas tourney against several state tourney bound AA teams and you play Blake 2x in conference, Edina 1-2x, Andover at least 1x and most of the rest of the almost best?

It is unfortunate but it is what it is. Why move up when you can have the best of both worlds? A state championship every year and an opportunity to play almost everyone else. For the rest of class A the next several years they all are playing for a chance to get pounded in the state championship by a class A potential back to back to back to back to back to back to back state champion?

zooomx
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by zooomx » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:06 pm

massalsa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:47 pm
j4241 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Since we're yakking about the elite league, let's bring it back to high school...

Certainly supports that Edina/Blake/Andover are at a different level. Breck seems to be ready to field another team capable of competing at AA (at every position except parents and administration, apparently).
It is partially on Breck. However I believe that most likely being jammed into Section 6AA has something to do with Breck's non-move. Why would you opt up when you can play in the Cake Eater Christmas tourney against several state tourney bound AA teams and you play Blake 2x in conference, Edina 1-2x, Andover at least 1x and most of the rest of the almost best?

It is unfortunate but it is what it is. Why move up when you can have the best of both worlds? A state championship every year and an opportunity to play almost everyone else. For the rest of class A the next several years they all are playing for a chance to get pounded in the state championship by a class A potential back to back to back to back to back to back to back state champion?
I sense a "Breck Girls Hockey Thread" in our future. I have been part of so many Hermantown discussions on the boys side and can see it both ways. On the girls side it seems odd to stay at "A" for Breck. There just aren't that many REALLY good AA teams in girls hockey. Why wouldn't you take your chances on winning the big one. To each is own I guess.

goaliedad31
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by goaliedad31 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:48 am

Maybe because they would be put in the "mini state tournament" section with Edina, Blake, Wayzata and Benilde. Until that section changes, I don't see them moving any time soon. Can you imagine had they kept Minnetonka in there?

j4241
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by j4241 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:35 am

I meant this thread to be about something else - and threw in a gentle poke at some adults - I didn’t mean for that to be the focal point.

BUT

Regarding the responses - interesting to hear your perspectives. Though I feel like trophy-chasing is a phrase used to pejoratively describe the ethics around a set of behaviors, not something I’d use as a purported rational defense of an action. And I hate to think adults are choosing a course for kids for fear it might be too hard, or for fear of risking failure. Those seem like things that should be part of growing up (trying hard things and risking failure).

That said - the MSHSLs actions are even less defensible, so that part of your points I fully take.

jg2112
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by jg2112 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am

goaliedad31 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:48 am
Maybe because they would be put in the "mini state tournament" section with Edina, Blake, Wayzata and Benilde. Until that section changes, I don't see them moving any time soon. Can you imagine had they kept Minnetonka in there?
Yesterday I read about the MSHSL dealing with a $400,000 deficit. The High School League is burning thousands of dollars with its current Sections format for girls hockey. Given player movement, the preseason top 8 likely includes:

Andover, Blake, Edina, Forest Lake, North Wright County, Wayzata (Tonka and Maple Grove round out my preseason rankings).

The fact only 2 of these teams will be in the State tourney is suboptimal. It leaves a lot of money on the table. I know the argument is that the Section Finals and semi-finals give everyone these matchups anyways. However, not everyone can watch them because many are on the same night.

At the least, the High School League should move some Section finals to the same rink or spread them out over time so people who care can attend them. This year Sections 2, 4, 5, 6 and 8 will have their Section Finals on 2/14. That means I have to hypothetically choose between Eden Prairie v. Tonka, Hill-Murray v. Stillwater, Maple Grove v. Blaine, Edina v. Blake, Brainerd v. Alexandria and, significantly, dinner with my wife on Valentine's Day. If these games were on different nights I'd try to go to all of them! The HSL loses over $100 of revenue just from my daughter and me because of this lack of planning.

j4241
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by j4241 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:58 am

moosepaw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:13 pm
Not sure why Wayzata and Tonka don't have more, are they leaving for private schools?
Undoubtedly. Blake and Breck have a total of at least a handful of kids that would play starring roles for Tonka. And don't even think about what Edina would look like if all the Blake, Breck and Benilde kids went to school where they live.

j4241
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by j4241 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:05 am

jg2112 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 am
...The HSL loses over $100 of revenue just from my daughter and me because of this lack of planning.
The funny thing is, I don't think they care about money. They are like this obscure religious sect squirrelled away in their compound, every two years sending the annointed one into the holy vault to retrieve the Revered Section Rubberbands, all solemnly bowing their heads and chanting while the high priest reverently stretches them around pins in a map. Yeah - that makes sense.

Slap Shot
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by Slap Shot » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:00 am

zooomx wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:06 pm
massalsa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:47 pm
j4241 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Since we're yakking about the elite league, let's bring it back to high school...

Certainly supports that Edina/Blake/Andover are at a different level. Breck seems to be ready to field another team capable of competing at AA (at every position except parents and administration, apparently).
It is partially on Breck. However I believe that most likely being jammed into Section 6AA has something to do with Breck's non-move. Why would you opt up when you can play in the Cake Eater Christmas tourney against several state tourney bound AA teams and you play Blake 2x in conference, Edina 1-2x, Andover at least 1x and most of the rest of the almost best?

It is unfortunate but it is what it is. Why move up when you can have the best of both worlds? A state championship every year and an opportunity to play almost everyone else. For the rest of class A the next several years they all are playing for a chance to get pounded in the state championship by a class A potential back to back to back to back to back to back to back state champion?
I sense a "Breck Girls Hockey Thread" in our future. I have been part of so many Hermantown discussions on the boys side and can see it both ways. On the girls side it seems odd to stay at "A" for Breck. There just aren't that many REALLY good AA teams in girls hockey. Why wouldn't you take your chances on winning the big one. To each is own I guess.
Breck or any other A team should not be able to play AA teams period except perhaps a mid-season tournament. Even then....

I think hockey is the only sport where this happens? If not certainly it's not as common.

MNHockeyFan
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by MNHockeyFan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:27 pm

j4241 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:58 am
Undoubtedly. Blake and Breck have a total of at least a handful of kids that would play starring roles for Tonka. And don't even think about what Edina would look like if all the Blake, Breck and Benilde kids went to school where they live.
The conclusion I draw from this is that the private schools serve a valuable purpose by drawing kids from major powers like Minnetonka and Edina. In so doing they help achieve some degree of parity between the state's super powers in girl's high school hockey.

MNHockeyFan
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by MNHockeyFan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:58 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:00 am
Breck or any other A team should not be able to play AA teams period except perhaps a mid-season tournament. Even then....

I think hockey is the only sport where this happens? If not certainly it's not as common.
This in my opinion would impose a needless regulation on the better A teams that are competitive with, or even superior to talent-wise, teams that are classed as AA only due to the size of their enrollment. Restricting the best A teams (like Breck currently) from playing AA teams during the season would result in even more blow-out games that don't do anyone on either team any good. IMO the rules should promote all teams, regardless of assigned (or chosen) class, to play a schedule that is as competitive as possible, given their own talent level (which changes year-to-year). When teams are competitively matched (regardless of class) it challenges the players on both teams, which in turn benefits the players on both teams by:
(a) needing to play hard in order to finding ways to win, which in turn
(b) advances their skill development.

j4241
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by j4241 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:21 am

I did not mean this to turn in to a bash-Breck or defend-Breck thread.

But...

“Or even superior”...? Of course they are - by massive, US military vs Grenada levels. Breck’s KRACH rating last year ended at 488.14. The lowest rated AA school was Rochester Mayo, with a KRACH rating of 0.295. Breck has four Gopher commits - the most of any program anywhere. They have a pre-season at least top-5 candidate for Ms. Hockey, and a deep and talented supporting cast. Obviously Breck is very good.

And they know that, so they don’t schedule schools like Rochester Mayo. Of the top half of teams last year in Minnesota in terms of strength of schedule (SoS), only 9 of 59 were single A. The third highest was Procter at 42 (so only 2 in the top 41). Second was SPU at 11 (with a losing record). Breck was the highest with a SoS rating of 5th and a record of 22-8-0. They are REALLY good, and are not playing anything like what other single A schools play. I don’t know what level they should play - there are many factors that go into a school’s decision making about that (and it is up to the school, given their enrollment is under the single A threshold). But I do think the earlier proposal was reasonable - schools that want to play other good schools should play each other at the end of the year to see who’s the best. And if you don’t want to play the best at the end of the year, limits on who you get to play during the year are pretty reasonable. Every other school’s schedule reflects that principle, even if it’s not yet a rule (only two A schools in the top 39 in KRACH SoS).

Also, the enrollment division is a tricky one. Yes, the two division school size is supposed to be based on enrollment unless a school opts up (as Blake has). But when private schools aggressively evangelize to sports-specific groups (which is true of Breck, Blake, Benilde, Hill Murray and others), there should be a recognition that the effective population of talent they are drawing from is not well measured by their enrollment.

Slap Shot
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 am

MNHockeyFan wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:58 pm
Slap Shot wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:00 am
Breck or any other A team should not be able to play AA teams period except perhaps a mid-season tournament. Even then....

I think hockey is the only sport where this happens? If not certainly it's not as common.
This in my opinion would impose a needless regulation on the better A teams that are competitive with, or even superior to talent-wise, teams that are classed as AA only due to the size of their enrollment. Restricting the best A teams (like Breck currently) from playing AA teams during the season would result in even more blow-out games that don't do anyone on either team any good.
Then move into AA. There are bottom performing AA teams getting worked over by other AA teams including in sections and Breck doesn't have to schedule their NC games against the poorest of the poor in A. Having their cake and eating it too is bad policy.

Mnnstar
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by Mnnstar » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:45 am

This is the same argument used about Blake. #-o

jg2112
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by jg2112 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:18 am

The easy way to solve this issue is to go back to one division for girls hockey. Format the postseason so 16 teams get to State. Use Tuesday of State tourney week to get the bracket from 16 to 8. Play those games at Ridder and Tria. Boot the 8 losing teams on Tuesday to the consolation bracket. Have the tourney continue in a double-elimination format until we get to Saturday, with a championship game (potentially involving a team that lost on Tuesday) and a 3rd place game at the X.

Last year the KRACH rankings would have given the State tourney this hypothetical setup:

Blake v. Grand Rapids / Greenway
Edina v. Elk River
Warroad v. Minnetonka
Forest Lake v. North Wright County
Andover v. Hill-Murray
Breck v. Maple Grove
Brainerd v. Eden Prairie
Wayzata v. Roseau

If anyone would miss Andover 7 - Farmington 1 ; Edina 7 - East Ridge 0 ; or Breck 11 - Mound Westonka 1, I apologize.

Thoen88
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by Thoen88 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:53 pm

j4241 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Since we're yakking about the elite league, let's bring it back to high school...

What teams have strong representation across the full league? Out of a league total of roughly 160 kids (including the freshman on Gemini), I count (totally eyeballing - these may be off by 1 or 2):

Edina - 13 (9 on 19s teams + 16 Grey - by far the most)
Blake - 13 (5 on 19s + Grey)
Andover - 11 (5)
Breck - 9 (5)
Tonka - 7?
Wayzata - 5?
Holy Family - 9? (5 on Gemini)
Benilde - 5?

Other schools have meaningful numbers (EP comes to mind)? This is obviously not the world's best way to evaluate anything (it's a mix of ability + access, as opposed to just ability, and doesn't discriminate between a solid player and a star), and misses some good kids (I notice one pretty good Andover returner not playing? Some kids playing other tier 1 (Gentry, Ice Cougars)? Some national camp 15s also not in it? Obviously doesn't include the Selects Academy Edina import...), but it's interesting to me. Certainly supports that Edina/Blake/Andover are at a different level. Breck seems to be ready to field another team capable of competing at AA (at every position except parents and administration, apparently). Anyone surprised Tonka and Wayzata don't have more (assuming I counted right in the first place)?
Going back to the original post, the Red Knights have 8 players in this year's Elite League...5 juniors and 3 sophomores.

Oh, and regarding the whole Breck thing, private schools should not be allowed to play Class A in hockey...at all. No axe to grind as my kids play(ed) at BSM. Private schools should be playing AA in hockey.

C_R
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Re: High school programs #s in Elite league

Post by C_R » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:46 pm

jg2112 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:18 am
The easy way to solve this issue is to go back to one division for girls hockey. * * *

If anyone would miss Andover 7 - Farmington 1 ; Edina 7 - East Ridge 0 ; or Breck 11 - Mound Westonka 1, I apologize.
I, for one, would miss Breck 2 Fergus 0; Proctor-Hermantown 3 Lourdes 2; Fergus 4 Lourdes 2 - all games that I watched and enjoyed for a variety of reasons. The fan support for the Otters' return to the Tourney, after a number of years away, being a big one.

But, no need to apologize ... there is just no reason to throw Class A hockey out with the Breck bathwater. [-X

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