2022 Class AA State Tournament

[Thoen88]

[/quote] In terms of other sections, you'll have to talk to the MSHSL about that - they've never cared about competitive parity. They see 9-0, 7-0, and 5-0 quarterfinal scores in AA hockey and think "yay! arbitrary geographic boundaries were all represented!"
[/quote]


100% correct on this assessment. I wrote a column about it a lifetime ago when I covered MN high school hockey. MSHSL doesn't want a state tournament...it wants a regional tournament.

At the AA level, sections should have been eliminated a LONG time ago. Keep the MSHSL happy, take the 8 most northern teams and the 8 most southern teams and have one "section" tournament for each. Location can be moved each year. For the remaining "metro area" AA teams, have 6 predetermined locations around the metro for 6 "section" tournaments. Can use an LSQRANK system, or some other type of system, and rank the teams 1-48 and place teams in pods based on their ranking, with teams 1-6 getting the top seeds in the pods. This would allow more of the best teams a better opportunity to get to the state tournament, while keeping the MSHSL happy by ensuring a northern team and southern team are included.

This isn't rocket surgery. Do you realize that 3 of the state tournament teams this year wouldn't even have gotten a home game in the Section 6AA tournament?

[j4241]

Maybe even 5 of them, if Blake were at full strength for the full season. Wins against Wayzata (and Sibley) likely, and possible against Gentry (game 3) and Holy Family. In the theoretical in which they are 3-1 in those games (rather than 0-4), 4-7 state rankings likely BSM, Holy Family, Blake, Wayzata, and section 6 4 seed is ranked 7th in state.

[Thoen88]

Maybe even 5 of them, if Blake were at full strength for the full season. Wins against Wayzata (and Sibley) likely, and possible against Gentry (game 3) and Holy Family. In the theoretical in which they are 3-1 in those games (rather than 0-4), 4-7 state rankings likely BSM, Holy Family, Blake, Wayzata, and section 6 4 seed is ranked 7th in state.

Correct. It's pathetic when you get to the AA state tournament and you know that 3 of the games have no shot at being even remotely competitive. There is no "any given sunday" with those games. You could play all 3 of those games 100 times each and all 100 times they will turn out to be routs. 6AA semifinal had 2 of the top-7 teams in the state facing each other. Makes a lot of sense.

[moosepaw]

I agree 100% there is no ability for the MSHSl to have flexibility as teams go up or down in their cycles of how competitive they range. It forces people to move/transfer to the more dominant programs instead of staying at their community high school.
It would have been great to see my HF Fire this year at the tourney but I will never see it.

[Eagles93]

It forces people to move/transfer to the more dominant programs instead of staying at their community high school.

Come on...

[Thoen88]

The MSHSL has all the ability and flexibility it needs. I laid out the path in an earlier post. Simply have a northern section and a southern, and you rank the remaining 48 AA teams and place them in 6 metro-area sections. MSHSL gets what it wants...a northern and southern team in the state tournament, and more top-end metro teams have a better chance to get to the tournament.

Problem is the MSHSL wouldn't do something like this because it makes too much sense.

I agree 100% there is no ability for the MSHSl to have flexibility as teams go up or down in their cycles of how competitive they range. It forces people to move/transfer to the more dominant programs instead of staying at their community high school.
It would have been great to see my HF Fire this year at the tourney but I will never see it.

[Eagles93]

It would also make too much sense to try and cut down on the movement of players like they're free agents. I was surprised earlier in the thread that so many players were move-ins for Tonka and Andover. I know every situation is different, if a family uproots and moves to Andover or Tonka for hockey purposes, I mean a better education when the girl is in 6th grade, that's one thing. But when a girl switches schools after sophomore or junior year and is eligible to play the next year, that's just wrong. You have most teams that have essentially their entire Varsity and JV rosters that all played together since they were mites playing against these all star teams. What Holy Family has done the last few years is disgusting. I am not gonna lie, no offense Moosepaw, I was thrilled when they lost to Tonka. I'm sure that sounds harsh, I feel for the girls, but for the bigger picture of girls hockey, I'm so glad this fabricated dynasty wannabe failed. Sorry to single HF out, other schools are guilty, but HF is the most glaringly obvious recruiting team out there. (Gentry too, but that's a different animal.)

MSHSL needs to crack down on all of these girls hopping from team to team. Full disclosure, I don't know what happened at Breck last year but how were all of those girls eligible to play this year for a new school? (In Messner's case, swapping teams mid-season?!?) I'm not positive, but I thought I heard there was no family relocation for Enright, how was she eligible to switch to South? I don't mean to call these girls out, but rather the system that allows it.

[Thoen88]

In regard to the player movement, I agree with this 100% as well.

My son went through the high school game a few years back and I thought the "gray area" and player movement was bad on the boys side. Then when Emma started playing at BSM, oy vey. Infinitely worse with the player movement on the girls side.

Glad Emma is past it now and can look toward the next challenge, but if I had one day as the "final voice" of the MSHSL, the rule I'd put in place regarding player movement is that if a player leaves a school and goes to another, that player will not be eligible for post-season play, in any sport, for one calendar year. Period.

Seems pretty harsh, but the B.S. that is going on with girls hockey right now is well beyond the point of being pathetic.

It would also make too much sense to try and cut down on the movement of players like they're free agents. I was surprised earlier in the thread that so many players were move-ins for Tonka and Andover. I know every situation is different, if a family uproots and moves to Andover or Tonka for hockey purposes, I mean a better education when the girl is in 6th grade, that's one thing. But when a girl switches schools after sophomore or junior year and is eligible to play the next year, that's just wrong. You have most teams that have essentially their entire Varsity and JV rosters that all played together since they were mites playing against these all star teams. What Holy Family has done the last few years is disgusting. I am not gonna lie, no offense Moosepaw, I was thrilled when they lost to Tonka. I'm sure that sounds harsh, I feel for the girls, but for the bigger picture of girls hockey, I'm so glad this fabricated dynasty wannabe failed. Sorry to single HF out, other schools are guilty, but HF is the most glaringly obvious recruiting team out there. (Gentry too, but that's a different animal.)

MSHSL needs to crack down on all of these girls hopping from team to team. Full disclosure, I don't know what happened at Breck last year but how were all of those girls eligible to play this year for a new school? (In Messner's case, swapping teams mid-season?!?) I'm not positive, but I thought I heard there was no family relocation for Enright, how was she eligible to switch to South? I don't mean to call these girls out, but rather the system that allows it.

[Eagles93]

...the rule I'd put in place regarding player movement is that if a player leaves a school and goes to another, that player will not be eligible for post-season play, in any sport, for one calendar year. Period.

I remember you or someone else proposing this idea in the past but I forgot about it... I love this idea! Again, makes too much sense for the MSHSL.

[Lace'emUp]

MSHSL needs to crack down on all of these girls hopping from team to team. Full disclosure, I don't know what happened at Breck last year but how were all of those girls eligible to play this year for a new school? (In Messner's case, swapping teams mid-season?!?) I'm not positive, but I thought I heard there was no family relocation for Enright, how was she eligible to switch to South? I don't mean to call these girls out, but rather the system that allows it.

I was told by an AD that unless eligibly is questioned by an opposing school, it basically will not get looked at. The MSHSL is not searching out this stuff. The AD also went on to say that in his opinion, a schools will not report on another school for the fear they could get reported on themselves. More so, most AD's are not going to know girls hockey as we do within this forum. They rely on their coaching staff for information. If the coach is not sending a message to the AD about a an opposing player's eligibility, its not going to get looked at. If you want someone to comply, they must self-police and self-report, like the NCAA's. Again, this is the opinion from one AD. But it makes sense. If so many players are jumping around as they are, schools must not be submitting enquires (or they are legal jumps).

[Thoen88]

MSHSL needs to crack down on all of these girls hopping from team to team. Full disclosure, I don't know what happened at Breck last year but how were all of those girls eligible to play this year for a new school? (In Messner's case, swapping teams mid-season?!?) I'm not positive, but I thought I heard there was no family relocation for Enright, how was she eligible to switch to South? I don't mean to call these girls out, but rather the system that allows it.

I was told by an AD that unless eligibly is questioned by an opposing school, it basically will not get looked at. The MSHSL is not searching out this stuff. The AD also went on to say that in his opinion, a schools will not report on another school for the fear they could get reported on themselves. More so, most AD's are not going to know girls hockey as we do within this forum. They rely on their coaching staff for information. If the coach is not sending a message to the AD about a an opposing player's eligibility, its not going to get looked at. If you want someone to comply, they must self-police and self-report, like the NCAA's. Again, this is the opinion from one AD. But it makes sense. If so many players are jumping around as they are, schools must not be submitting enquires (or they are legal jumps).

If this is anywhere near accurate, the entire governing body of the MSHSL should be ashamed. Each sport has a "representative" from the MSHSL assigned to. Obviously, each Rep has more than one sport. You how long it would take a Rep to go through final rosters of say, girls hockey from the 2021-22 season and compare them to what the schools submit for the 2022-23 season and look for moveins/outs/transfers, etc? Guessing about a couple of hours, if that. Find a player that played for X in 2021-22 and is now playing for Y in 2022-23, well, unfortunately that player cannot play in the playoffs for any sport in 2022-23. This is simply a case of the MSHSL with its collective head buried in the sand not wanting to acknowledge there is a real problem going on.

[j4241]

This is simply a case of the MSHSL with its collective head buried in the sand not wanting to acknowledge there is a real problem going on.

This, plus all a family needs to do is hire a lawyer. The MSHSL has zero budget to fight, if a family wants to fight back. Yet another way the policy they have in place favors the privileged.

[hwkfan]

Its good to be back....here's my 200 cents.
I agree with Moosepaw that it causes girls to funnel to certain programs, especially private schools. With boys you might have 3-4 teams capable of making it and it seems to bounce around more from year to year whereas with the girls its 1-2 teams per section and it seems to be the same teams for the most part. I hope the MSHSL does something about the free agency moves.
As far as the tourney goes. The stars aligned for Tonka. Calls went their way...bounces went their way. They were right there until 2 min left saturday.
The Sadura penalty is going to go down as the dumbest play in the programs history. Your team was just handed a gift with a power play with 2:45 to go. You had a tv timeout. Wouldn't as a coach tell your players or shouldn't a player know that if the refs get the slightest chance to even it up they are going to call a penalty? The andover girl looked like she was going to just trap the puck and kill some time. Wasn't even attempting to ice it or make a play and sadura blasted her from behind 187 ft from Tonkas net. That obviously led to the 4-4 where Andover was given the scoring opportunity and then still left her team with only 5 skaters with the goalie pulled. She is obviously a great player but seeing a third of tonkas games this year she really has a knack for taking dumb, poorly timed penalties. She was out shooting the poop with the Andover girls after the game while they were taking pics and Minnetonka was off the ice. Just me but I would been in that lockerroom apologizing to the team and especially the seniors for taking that penalty. She seems to put a lot of effort into fancy celly's when she should figure out who to not put her team in tough situations. It'll probably take 1 time and UMD and the coach will fix that.
Other than that I don't think it was as lopsided as J said earlier. Tonka plays a high risk game and while it can be fun to watch, its risky as hell. It's just their style; right or wrong. They lost 7 games this year and you will not see a team with talent like that lose 8 in your lifetime. Andover seemed to have a much more composure just looking at the two benches and they played a much more methodical game and waited for the right time to make a play. Andover looked like a young college team the way they handled themselves. 4 and 19 for Andover outplayed Hemp and klepinger and that may have been the difference in the game. They never do anything that fancy and never seem tired or out of position. You would have a tough time if you didn't know beforehand which 2 d were underclassmen and which 2 were upper classmen headed to the Gophers.
I know Tonka has good power play numbers but as preposterous as it may sound, I honestly think it could be a lot better. Hemp shooting from the top as much as she does is a mostly a waste of time. Laroche in front is what it is and then with the other 4 players, she shoots the puck worse than any. Yes, there are times where you throw it at the net with the right screen or if the opposing team has two girls high, etc etc. Her slap shot isn’t great by the longest stretch and either she was hurt or couldn’t get much on a wrist shot this weekend. To me, it looked like her arm/shoulder was hurting the way she was holding it. She threw some wobbly looking passes as well that looked like she didn’t want the puck. Sadura, klepinger and Lindsey all shoot the puck better. Lindsey can shoot the puck accurate but she shoots from 40’ out too often and her shot doesn’t have the speed to be very effective from that far out. Klepinger can rip it but Hemp is too slow to move it over to her and lets the entire arena know her intentions ahead of time. Opposing goalies are onto it and while klepinger can sometimes beat them, she’s not Ovechkin. She gets a little tunnel vision and being the second-best passer on the team, I believe there are times she could move it across to Lindsey where she has the goalie out of position vs Klepinger trying to squeeze it in upper right.
Not counting out a rematch of these two teams 363 days from now. I think this board needs a free agent tracker like the NHL website does. That way we can keep track of all the players who jump ship in July and August.

[j4241]

I've been a little hesitant to attach names to my critical comments, but this is a very thoughtful and cognet analysis of key players on Tonka's side, in my opinion. I particularly appreciate and respect you disagreeing with me by sharing analysis of players and game play, rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks.

One thing I wanted to add about what I saw from Tonka - much respect to Laroche for pulling the team out of their wallowing in self-pity to get on the blue line and show respect to their opponent. A class move in defeat by at least one part of the Tonka leadership.

[jg2112]

Returning to the transfer discussion.

I'm wondering what the downside of abolishing the transfer rule would be. Obviously this doesn't exist for academics (does it?). Imagine your kid is a talented actor, you transfer the child to a school with a highly renowned program before his/her junior year, and the child is forced to understudy for 12 months. Of course that's absurd. One could argue the same for a child whose talent is sport - an activity that "is an extension of the classroom."

The argument on this board is that whoever wants to transfer, does and will find a way to do so, including litigation the High School League cannot afford to defend. I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

I know the arguments of perseverance, friends, and all that. It's obvious transferring kids are using these same arguments to transfer. Maybe everyone should be given the same opportunities.

[Thoen88]

Returning to the transfer discussion.

I'm wondering what the downside of abolishing the transfer rule would be. Obviously this doesn't exist for academics (does it?). Imagine your kid is a talented actor, you transfer the child to a school with a highly renowned program before his/her junior year, and the child is forced to understudy for 12 months. Of course that's absurd. One could argue the same for a child whose talent is sport - an activity that "is an extension of the classroom."

The argument on this board is that whoever wants to transfer, does and will find a way to do so, including litigation the High School League cannot afford to defend. I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

I know the arguments of perseverance, friends, and all that. It's obvious transferring kids are using these same arguments to transfer. Maybe everyone should be given the same opportunities.

Argument is for athletics....not academics or fine arts. The MSHSL makes its money via athletics, so that is why it should be governed a little more stringently. The "everybody is doing it" is a weak argument, but one the MSHSL has caved to for many many years.

During Emma's 6 years playing for BSM, I know players who were on their 3rd high school team this past year and it has nothing to do with academics, and that is a major problem the MSHSL chooses to ignore.

[Eagles93]

I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

This is the crux of the problem. And I break it down into public and private. If a girl goes to a private school that has a history of attracting top talent, she can't be surprised if some day a better player transfers in and takes/limits her ice time. It's wrong that a player can move in so freely, but in today's environment she can't be surprised.

For a public school, however, it's bullsh*t. Put yourself in a Tonka girl's shoes this year. She's one of the better players in the program, always a 10A/12A player, works her butt off in the summer, goes to the coaches summer programs, etc, etc, etc. Maybe she spends a year or two on JV knowing her time will come. Then one day "great news, we have three incoming skaters! And they're all D1 committed! Oh, and they are juniors!"

I'm sorry, that girl that now knows she'll be lucky to get a few minutes a game on varsity has to move schools to continue to play? Leave her friends, adjust to a new school and team, drive further every day to school and rink? No, I don't think the answer is to abolish transfer rules.

[bodyup88]

Very well said Eagles.

[hwkfan]

Very well put eagles
J, funny we were both watching the players after the game. Some other odd behavior I noticed but I’ll keep that to myself; for now

[Lace'emUp]

Returning to the transfer discussion.

I'm wondering what the downside of abolishing the transfer rule would be. Obviously this doesn't exist for academics (does it?). Imagine your kid is a talented actor, you transfer the child to a school with a highly renowned program before his/her junior year, and the child is forced to understudy for 12 months. Of course that's absurd. One could argue the same for a child whose talent is sport - an activity that "is an extension of the classroom."

The argument on this board is that whoever wants to transfer, does and will find a way to do so, including litigation the High School League cannot afford to defend. I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

I know the arguments of perseverance, friends, and all that. It's obvious transferring kids are using these same arguments to transfer. Maybe everyone should be given the same opportunities.

To expand on this, if the transfer rule is abolished, how soon do we start seeing kids living with other families during the season? If that's not enforced, how soon would that rule be abolished? Then we might see top programs practicing and playing together out-of-season. Easy to do with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents/boosters.

We start going down a slippery road if we start abolishing rules. They simply need to be enforced or we might see Shattuck enter into the MSHSL, and subsequently win the next 20 championships.

[Slap Shot]

I guess I've never heard a team losing the championship game by 1 goal and out shooting their opponent be considered "Massively underachieving." Your comments are so blatantly biased that it takes away from any good points you might make. And by saying that Tonka was lucky the game was even close puts you in a stark minority. Most people thought it was a great game. But I guess if you keep yelling at the top of your lungs maybe someone will listen. If you keep throwing out opinions maybe one will stick and people will believe your narrative.

No, no, no. Their goals were unintentional and flukey, and only one player on the team has class.

[jg2112]

Returning to the transfer discussion.

I'm wondering what the downside of abolishing the transfer rule would be. Obviously this doesn't exist for academics (does it?). Imagine your kid is a talented actor, you transfer the child to a school with a highly renowned program before his/her junior year, and the child is forced to understudy for 12 months. Of course that's absurd. One could argue the same for a child whose talent is sport - an activity that "is an extension of the classroom."

The argument on this board is that whoever wants to transfer, does and will find a way to do so, including litigation the High School League cannot afford to defend. I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

I know the arguments of perseverance, friends, and all that. It's obvious transferring kids are using these same arguments to transfer. Maybe everyone should be given the same opportunities.

To expand on this, if the transfer rule is abolished, how soon do we start seeing kids living with other families during the season? If that's not enforced, how soon would that rule be abolished? Then we might see top programs practicing and playing together out-of-season. Easy to do with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents/boosters.

We start going down a slippery road if we start abolishing rules. They simply need to be enforced or we might see Shattuck enter into the MSHSL, and subsequently win the next 20 championships.

how soon do we start seeing kids living with other families during the season

This already has happened.

Then we might see top programs practicing and playing together out-of-season. Easy to do with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents/boosters.

Have you heard of O/S (which trains from March until August) and the Elite League (which plays from March-May and September - October)? How about 2 months of STP followed by 2 months of Captains Practices? Even if you take away the AAA program, these kids are already allowed to practice and play together 9 months of the year under the high school rules. I find that ridiculous.

Yes, this is more than Shattuck, which I believe takes the summer off from organized activities.

What months of the year do you think the Andover, Blake, Edina, and Tonka groups aren't skating and training together?

Everything you're worried about is already happening.

[Lace'emUp]

Returning to the transfer discussion.

I'm wondering what the downside of abolishing the transfer rule would be. Obviously this doesn't exist for academics (does it?). Imagine your kid is a talented actor, you transfer the child to a school with a highly renowned program before his/her junior year, and the child is forced to understudy for 12 months. Of course that's absurd. One could argue the same for a child whose talent is sport - an activity that "is an extension of the classroom."

The argument on this board is that whoever wants to transfer, does and will find a way to do so, including litigation the High School League cannot afford to defend. I submit the athletes most harmed are those at the incoming schools that lost the benefit of the 9th grade school choice and then lose a chance to play. Why not give them the opportunity to also transfer and seek out playing time if that matters to them, instead of being trapped because their parents don't want to buy a new house, get divorced, etc.?

I know the arguments of perseverance, friends, and all that. It's obvious transferring kids are using these same arguments to transfer. Maybe everyone should be given the same opportunities.

To expand on this, if the transfer rule is abolished, how soon do we start seeing kids living with other families during the season? If that's not enforced, how soon would that rule be abolished? Then we might see top programs practicing and playing together out-of-season. Easy to do with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents/boosters.

We start going down a slippery road if we start abolishing rules. They simply need to be enforced or we might see Shattuck enter into the MSHSL, and subsequently win the next 20 championships.

how soon do we start seeing kids living with other families during the season

This already has happened.

Then we might see top programs practicing and playing together out-of-season. Easy to do with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents/boosters.

Have you heard of O/S (which trains from March until August) and the Elite League (which plays from March-May and September - October)? How about 2 months of STP followed by 2 months of Captains Practices? Even if you take away the AAA program, these kids are already allowed to practice and play together 9 months of the year under the high school rules. I find that ridiculous.

Yes, this is more than Shattuck, which I believe takes the summer off from organized activities.

What months of the year do you think the Andover, Blake, Edina, and Tonka groups aren't skating and training together?

Everything you're worried about is already happening.

The only way this changes is if the Star Tribune or Pioneer Press does a little investigation and publishes an article with who might be violating the rules.
THIS WORKS!
Look up "Achiever Academy" from back in the 2013-14 season. When enough people started blowing-the-whistle on them about rules violations, the Star Tribune caught wind and published an article(s). Achiever's pulled out on their own, but the MSHSL was going take action. In the end, their entire season was forfeited (all 0-1 losses). The worst part is they had already clobbered a couple teams in sections, before being sanctioned and removed from the Section Championship game. The teams that lost to them didn't get the second chance, but at least Achiever's was essentially kicked out MSHSL (again, they pulled out on their own before MSHSL could take action). Here's the link to one of the stories:

https://www.mngirlshockeyhub.com/news_a ... y-playoffs

[jg2112]

The point of my last post is to respond to the prior post - the rules already allow these girls to train and play together all year long.

Take the "MSP Grey" Elite League team that has 5 Tonka girls. Those 5 girls (Lindsay, Klepinger, Sadura, Avar, Distad) train and play together, LITERALLY, all 12 months of the year, between 4 and 6 days a week.

Put aside how boring this sounds. The top programs are "already practicing and playing together out-of-season" with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents.

[Lace'emUp]

The point of my last post is to respond to the prior post - the rules already allow these girls to train and play together all year long.

Take the "MSP Grey" Elite League team that has 5 Tonka girls. Those 5 girls (Lindsay, Klepinger, Sadura, Avar, Distad) train and play together, LITERALLY, all 12 months of the year, between 4 and 6 days a week.

Put aside how boring this sounds. The top programs are "already practicing and playing together out-of-season" with a 2nd coaching staff hired by parents.

My point was meant to go beyond elite league or premier prep, or OS and other AAA teams for that matter (I know that's allowed). I'm talking about allowing full varsity teams continued to play and practice as a unit. This hinges to my comment about Shattuck. If teams are allowed to play and practice outside of the season AND the MSHSL is not enforcing or they abolish the residency and family living rules, what stops Shattuck (or an Achiever Academy) from having a MSHSL season, book-ended by their club season? If residency and live-in rules go away, maybe OS should start an online academy and enter into the MSHSL?