Fall Hockey

Discussion of Minnesota Girls High School Hockey

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InThePipes
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:38 am

Can someone explain (at a high level) the ins and outs of the fall leagues on the girls side?

- Elite League
- Premier Prep
- MN Tier 1
- Others I'm missing?

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:44 am

Elite League - Run by Os Hockey in conjunction with MN Hockey as a Tier 1 Program for 15U Girls and older. Tryout is by invitation only - players must be nominated by their HS Coaches but not all nominated players get to tryout. Players that make USA Hockey National Camp are automatically invited. There is a 16U and 19U level - there is a top team at each level that is hand picked by the Elite League Staff and they are given a pass to either the National Tournament in the Spring or a one game playoff vs Shattuck in the Fall for the National Tournament berth.

Premiere Prep - Same age group as Elite - girls that don't make Elite or aren't nominated to tryout. This league is also run in conjunction with MN Hockey and the league champs at both levels compete in the Tier 2 National Tournament in the Spring. Unlike Elite, teams are split up evenly. Good level of play. In both of these leagues tryouts occur in June so they're done and I believe the PP teams have already been posted. Elite teams will probably be posted later next week after the 18U Selects Camp.

There are a couple other leagues (Red/Black and ??) for girls that don't make Elite or PP.

Tier 1 is MInnesota Hockey's baby - for 14U Girls ('08 and '09 birthyears in 2022). Tryouts are underway or just completed. Teams are rostered by MN Hockey Section and play through mid-October. This season they also are running a Prospects League that will compete as a Tier 2 program....both league champions will go to the National Championships in the Spring.

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:06 am

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:44 am
Elite League - Run by Os Hockey in conjunction with MN Hockey as a Tier 1 Program for 15U Girls and older. Tryout is by invitation only - players must be nominated by their HS Coaches but not all nominated players get to tryout. Players that make USA Hockey National Camp are automatically invited. There is a 16U and 19U level - there is a top team at each level that is hand picked by the Elite League Staff and they are given a pass to either the National Tournament in the Spring or a one game playoff vs Shattuck in the Fall for the National Tournament berth.

Premiere Prep - Same age group as Elite - girls that don't make Elite or aren't nominated to tryout. This league is also run in conjunction with MN Hockey and the league champs at both levels compete in the Tier 2 National Tournament in the Spring. Unlike Elite, teams are split up evenly. Good level of play. In both of these leagues tryouts occur in June so they're done and I believe the PP teams have already been posted. Elite teams will probably be posted later next week after the 18U Selects Camp.

There are a couple other leagues (Red/Black and ??) for girls that don't make Elite or PP.

Tier 1 is MInnesota Hockey's baby - for 14U Girls ('08 and '09 birthyears in 2022). Tryouts are underway or just completed. Teams are rostered by MN Hockey Section and play through mid-October. This season they also are running a Prospects League that will compete as a Tier 2 program....both league champions will go to the National Championships in the Spring.
Thank you!

bodyup88
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Re: Fall Hockey

Post by bodyup88 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:13 pm

Why don't some nominated players get a chance to tryout?

bodyup88
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by bodyup88 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm

Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?

Lace'emUp
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Lace'emUp » Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:05 pm

bodyup88 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm
Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?
It's a good question. One might think they simply bypass players who don't make an HP team in the spring (640 players at 4 levels). Then again, I know players who don't make HP teams, but DO play elite league (and deserve to be there). I also (IMO) see players who have no business playing elite league (sorry, I'm not giving names), and I have no idea how they got there.

Eagles93
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Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Eagles93 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:36 pm

bodyup88 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm
Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?
My guess is that some HS coaches don't want to do the dirty work and ruffle feathers on their team by deciding who is and who is not capable of trying out for the Elite league. So rather than sitting through 50 tryout sessions knowing that a ton of the players have no business being there, they weed some out before tryouts. And/or, maybe if Winny has never heard of you, you don't get to try out?
Lace'emUp wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:05 pm
I also (IMO) see players who have no business playing elite league (sorry, I'm not giving names), and I have no idea how they got there.
Agreed, I'm guessing this is more of a political issue, one scratching another's back. Or, again, Winny is very familiar with the girl.

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:09 pm

bodyup88 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm
Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?
I don't know what the magic formula is.

I do know some coaches nominate every player on their roster that's eligible, and many of them just aren't realistic candidates. Only so many can tryout...

There is also greater consideration given to girls that have been selected for HP Spring Festivals (15's and 16/17's) (MN Hockey and Os/Elite do communicate on this somewhat).

Girls that have played previously are given greater consideration.

And it doesn't hurt to be a regular on the Os circuit....

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:26 am

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:09 pm
bodyup88 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm
Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?
I don't know what the magic formula is.

I do know some coaches nominate every player on their roster that's eligible, and many of them just aren't realistic candidates. Only so many can tryout...

There is also greater consideration given to girls that have been selected for HP Spring Festivals (15's and 16/17's) (MN Hockey and Os/Elite do communicate on this somewhat).

Girls that have played previously are given greater consideration.

And it doesn't hurt to be a regular on the Os circuit....
I think you nailed it above. In my opinion, nominations should be more of a rarity, for the true late bloomer who just recently registered on the radar, not for an entire group of girls as a lifetime achievement award for sticking it out to the end.

Also, this is not unique to the girls side, the boys side has similar issues with HSEL, HP, etc.

Lace'emUp
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Lace'emUp » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:33 am

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:26 am
PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:09 pm
bodyup88 wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:15 pm
Why don't some players nominated by their respective coaches get an opportunity to try out?
I don't know what the magic formula is.

I do know some coaches nominate every player on their roster that's eligible, and many of them just aren't realistic candidates. Only so many can tryout...

There is also greater consideration given to girls that have been selected for HP Spring Festivals (15's and 16/17's) (MN Hockey and Os/Elite do communicate on this somewhat).

Girls that have played previously are given greater consideration.

And it doesn't hurt to be a regular on the Os circuit....
I think you nailed it above. In my opinion, nominations should be more of a rarity, for the true late bloomer who just recently registered on the radar, not for an entire group of girls as a lifetime achievement award for sticking it out to the end.

Also, this is not unique to the girls side, the boys side has similar issues with HSEL, HP, etc.
I completely agree with this statement too. It benefits the high school coach if he nominates everyone on his roster (being facetious). But, if a coach does this every year, I'm sure the OS and Elite League staff will not take the list seriously. If a bubble player is given a tryout and has a great day, they might gain a roster spot. This benefits the high school. However, this could also backfire as the player could be out of their element, and might not gain anything from being beat more often than not.

No system is perfect. Some who should make it, will not. Some who have no business being there, will make it. I saw a few players in the Elite League last year who should've played premier prep, and vice versa.

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:17 pm

I see that tryouts for both elite league and premier prep have long since occurred, what is the timeline for roster releases if they haven't already been posted?

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:39 pm

Elite invites were sent this AM. There are likely some girls that made both and will opt for Elite....PP probably waiting for that shoe to drop before posting rosters.

Elite rosters will come next week I'm guessing.

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:18 pm

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:39 pm
Elite invites were sent this AM. There are likely some girls that made both and will opt for Elite....PP probably waiting for that shoe to drop before posting rosters.

Elite rosters will come next week I'm guessing.
Thanks. One more question, I'm not sure how likely or if this ever happens, but if a 2008 birth year made a MN Hockey U14 Tier 1 team and was also selected for a spot in Premier Prep, what path would you suggest taking?

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:41 pm

Tier 1...no question.

Premiere Prep isn't even supposed to allow them to try out so MN Hockey would step in anyway if she tried to jump.

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:04 pm

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:41 pm
Tier 1...no question.

Premiere Prep isn't even supposed to allow them to try out so MN Hockey would step in anyway if she tried to jump.
Thanks

Lace'emUp
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Lace'emUp » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:43 am

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:41 pm
Tier 1...no question.

Premiere Prep isn't even supposed to allow them to try out so MN Hockey would step in anyway if she tried to jump.
Correct (on both points). More so, since both teams are considered USA Tier 1 hockey, you can only be rostered on one team for the 2022-23 season (Aug thru April). It doesn't matter if it's MN U14 T1, an elite team Tier 1, or PP Tier 2. You can only be officially rostered on one (unless the rules have changed and I didn't catch it).

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:46 am

Lace'emUp wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:43 am
PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:41 pm
Tier 1...no question.

Premiere Prep isn't even supposed to allow them to try out so MN Hockey would step in anyway if she tried to jump.
Correct (on both points). More so, since both teams are considered USA Tier 1 hockey, you can only be rostered on one team for the 2022-23 season (Aug thru April). It doesn't matter if it's MN U14 T1, an elite team Tier 1, or PP Tier 2. You can only be officially rostered on one (unless the rules have changed and I didn't catch it).
Yup, and MN Hockey has kind of cracked down on Girls "playing up". They want them in their age groups which means 08-09 girls are in the MN Hockey Tier 1 program this season. That's not a bad thing because the level of play has improved considerably since it began....depending on where you live the skill level on each team (and the competition) is really good.

j4241
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Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:38 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by j4241 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:12 am

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:18 pm
Thanks. One more question, I'm not sure how likely or if this ever happens, but if a 2008 birth year made a MN Hockey U14 Tier 1 team and was also selected for a spot in Premier Prep, what path would you suggest taking?
Slightly different take - I think Tier 1 14s is better hockey than Tier 2 16s - better skating, pass quality, hockey IQ, etc, even if the 16s are slightly bigger and stronger, plus Tier 1 has more visibility. That said, I think the better path is partly dependent on your kid. If playing Tier 1 is a bit more aspirational - she can make the team but will play a lower role and not have the puck on her stick much, Tier 2 may be worth considering. Being on the higher team isn't always the best thing either for fun or development.

skatez
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Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:22 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by skatez » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:41 am

Can someone explain why the boys side of fall hockey is so much different than the girls side?

Why do the top boys skip HP in the fall and play for the Blades or a different U16 program (Lakers, Blue Army)?

Why does that not happen on the girls side? The pool is much shallower on the girls side which would make a Blades-style option more attractive for the top players.

InThePipes
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by InThePipes » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:21 am

skatez wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:41 am
Can someone explain why the boys side of fall hockey is so much different than the girls side?

Why do the top boys skip HP in the fall and play for the Blades or a different U16 program (Lakers, Blue Army)?

Why does that not happen on the girls side? The pool is much shallower on the girls side which would make a Blades-style option more attractive for the top players.
It's been a few years since I've paid much attention, but the Blades, Blue Army, Blizzard, etc. play in showcase events with other top Tier 1 teams from around the Midwest or nation, the visibility at those events for scouts is much more significant than coming to a MN Hockey Tier 1 game between the Lakers and the Loons. Nothing against the MN Hockey Tier 1 program, it's pretty good hockey and improving and they've also put some rules in place to significantly limit the ability of players to play with those other non-MN Hockey Tier 1 teams beyond September 1st (I think that date is correct, it's moved around in recent years).

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by PhunnsieMcHockeyDad » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:41 am

InThePipes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:21 am
skatez wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:41 am
Can someone explain why the boys side of fall hockey is so much different than the girls side?

Why do the top boys skip HP in the fall and play for the Blades or a different U16 program (Lakers, Blue Army)?

Why does that not happen on the girls side? The pool is much shallower on the girls side which would make a Blades-style option more attractive for the top players.
It's been a few years since I've paid much attention, but the Blades, Blue Army, Blizzard, etc. play in showcase events with other top Tier 1 teams from around the Midwest or nation, the visibility at those events for scouts is much more significant than coming to a MN Hockey Tier 1 game between the Lakers and the Loons. Nothing against the MN Hockey Tier 1 program, it's pretty good hockey and improving and they've also put some rules in place to significantly limit the ability of players to play with those other non-MN Hockey Tier 1 teams beyond September 1st (I think that date is correct, it's moved around in recent years).
There are pretty limited options for the girls - maybe the Ice Cougars could give them some exposure but I think they're looking for a longer term commitment (skipping the HS season).

The Tier 1 level girls (14U, 16U, 19U) do skate in the NIT event in October which is well attended by college coaches and scouts. I believe the college season starts the following week so they time it out to give everyone a chance to attend of they choose.

There just isn't much in the way of landing spots for the girls coming out of HS. They either play D1, D3, Club or stop playing - no juniors to act as a waypoint between HS and college. The number of college programs is getting better as schools add D3 teams but it's still tough to find a spot.

Lace'emUp
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Lace'emUp » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:32 am

j4241 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:12 am
InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:18 pm
Thanks. One more question, I'm not sure how likely or if this ever happens, but if a 2008 birth year made a MN Hockey U14 Tier 1 team and was also selected for a spot in Premier Prep, what path would you suggest taking?
Slightly different take - I think Tier 1 14s is better hockey than Tier 2 16s - better skating, pass quality, hockey IQ, etc, even if the 16s are slightly bigger and stronger, plus Tier 1 has more visibility. That said, I think the better path is partly dependent on your kid. If playing Tier 1 is a bit more aspirational - she can make the team but will play a lower role and not have the puck on her stick much, Tier 2 may be worth considering. Being on the higher team isn't always the best thing either for fun or development.
From having daughters on both sides of this, I agree with this take. If you're a "bubble" player when compared to others at the Elite League level, you will NOT be on a top team, and your playing time might be limited at times. Here is my opinion on each:

Elite League:
1. For top players who come from USA camps / HP teams / top liners from varsity, with some 2nd liners.
2. Teams are stacked to give give the Elite League the best change to not only compete, but win at the USAH National championships in the spring.
3. Great exposure for players to college coaches. They show up on their own to a lot of games.
4. Games could be spread out during the week. This could interfere with fall sports and for players who travel further from outside the metro.
5. Tryouts are invite only from nominations by HS coach, or hand picked by OS.
6. One could look at several of the Elite League teams as All-Star type teams that would beat almost any HS or club team in the country.

Premier Prep:
1. League is comprised of a wide mix of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd liners from varsity teams, with some JV.
2. Teams are supposed to be balanced, but that's a crap shoot. Nevertheless, PP's record at Tier 2 Nationals has been very good. Two U16 teams and Two U19 teams make it to Nationals in the spring, with the 3rd place team going to USAH High School Nationals (where our Jr Gold boys play).
3. Some exposure to local D3 college coaches. Further exposure for those who make it to Tier 2 Nationals in the spring. If you do some searching around, you will find the top players from PP last year will be playing at local D3 schools in the fall.
4. ALL games are on Sat/Sun in the fall. This works well with fall sports and for players to travel in from outside.
5. Open tryouts. With 7 teams each at U16 and U19, 280 players will make the cut. MGHCA posted about 380 players trying out, 100 will be cut, but some will be asked back due to some "move-ups" to the Elite League.
6. PP is obviously not the Elite League, but it is competitive. IMO, the top PP teams would have a pretty good chance to beat any MN varsity team ranked lower than 20 on the KRACH or QRF scales, and would be competitive with teams from 10-20.
Last edited by Lace'emUp on Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lace'emUp
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by Lace'emUp » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:40 am

PhunnsieMcHockeyDad wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:41 am
InThePipes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:21 am
skatez wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:41 am
Can someone explain why the boys side of fall hockey is so much different than the girls side?

Why do the top boys skip HP in the fall and play for the Blades or a different U16 program (Lakers, Blue Army)?

Why does that not happen on the girls side? The pool is much shallower on the girls side which would make a Blades-style option more attractive for the top players.
It's been a few years since I've paid much attention, but the Blades, Blue Army, Blizzard, etc. play in showcase events with other top Tier 1 teams from around the Midwest or nation, the visibility at those events for scouts is much more significant than coming to a MN Hockey Tier 1 game between the Lakers and the Loons. Nothing against the MN Hockey Tier 1 program, it's pretty good hockey and improving and they've also put some rules in place to significantly limit the ability of players to play with those other non-MN Hockey Tier 1 teams beyond September 1st (I think that date is correct, it's moved around in recent years).
There are pretty limited options for the girls - maybe the Ice Cougars could give them some exposure but I think they're looking for a longer term commitment (skipping the HS season).

The Tier 1 level girls (14U, 16U, 19U) do skate in the NIT event in October which is well attended by college coaches and scouts. I believe the college season starts the following week so they time it out to give everyone a chance to attend of they choose.

There just isn't much in the way of landing spots for the girls coming out of HS. They either play D1, D3, Club or stop playing - no juniors to act as a waypoint between HS and college. The number of college programs is getting better as schools add D3 teams but it's still tough to find a spot.
Agreed. More so, per the Ice Cougar operation last year, they're a full 9-month club team. You cannot play HS and Ice Cougars at the same time (per HS rules). They're basically like the old MN Revolution, or going further back, the MN Thoroughbreds, without the Tier 1 status. They can and will play Tier 1 teams, maybe some Tier 2, and college showcases, but they cannot play USAH Nationals. MNH has not and will not grant them Tier 1 status. Not just them, but not anyone outside the Elite League, PP or SSM (grandfather written agreement w/MNH). One of these days, some MN club team will win that court battle (gaining Tier 1 or 2 status).

skatez
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:22 pm

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by skatez » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:53 pm

So MNHockey essentially denies any club or program that could compete with their product?

As Phunnsie says there are limited options on the girls side. Why would MNHockey limit them even further?

bodyup88
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Re: Fall Hockey

Post by bodyup88 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:45 am

Lace'emUp wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:32 am
j4241 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:12 am
InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:18 pm
Thanks. One more question, I'm not sure how likely or if this ever happens, but if a 2008 birth year made a MN Hockey U14 Tier 1 team and was also selected for a spot in Premier Prep, what path would you suggest taking?
Slightly different take - I think Tier 1 14s is better hockey than Tier 2 16s - better skating, pass quality, hockey IQ, etc, even if the 16s are slightly bigger and stronger, plus Tier 1 has more visibility. That said, I think the better path is partly dependent on your kid. If playing Tier 1 is a bit more aspirational - she can make the team but will play a lower role and not have the puck on her stick much, Tier 2 may be worth considering. Being on the higher team isn't always the best thing either for fun or development.
From having daughters on both sides of this, I agree with this take. If you're a "bubble" player when compared to others at the Elite League level, you will NOT be on a top team, and your playing time might be limited at times. Here is my opinion on each:

Elite League:
1. For top players who come from USA camps / HP teams / top liners from varsity, with some 2nd liners.
2. Teams are stacked to give give the Elite League the best change to not only compete, but win at the USAH National championships in the spring.
3. Great exposure for players to college coaches. They show up on their own to a lot of games.
4. Games could be spread out during the week. This could interfere with fall sports and for players who travel further from outside the metro.
5. Tryouts are invite only from nominations by HS coach, or hand picked by OS.
6. One could look at several of the Elite League teams as All-Star type teams that would beat almost any HS or club team in the country.

Very accurate except for #5 above, where you need to skip directly to hand picked by Os

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