Burnsville Hockey

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:06 am

Check out what is happened to the Burnsville Hockey Team. It's too bad! What do people think? <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/526/ ...  Hockeyhead

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:49 am

This is a tough one. I feel sorry for Coach Osiecki. And the High school players that more than likely did not know that they were doing anything thing wrong. I think the suspensions are to hard on the girls. If they did this and they knew it was wrong then yes suspend them from playing 4 games. But I don’t feel they really knew this was against the rules. I know we all let the players know drinking and smoking is a NO. But this was a no as well but I’m sure they did not know this. So let not be so hard on them. I found this as well today in the paper: What is hazing? • Hazing means committing an act against a student, or coercing a student into committing an act, that creates a substantial risk of harm to a person, in order for the student to be initiated into or affiliated with a student organization, or for any other purpose. -- Bylaw 209.00 of the Minnesota State High School League Official Handbook They have a game tonight and I hope EP calls off the dogs tonight and does what is right… Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... hcorner</A> at: 11/15/05 9:40 am

ItsNEBG · Post by **ItsNEBG** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:36 am

I agree it's a bit harsh. On the other hand, the coach should have reminded the players/parents about hazing, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, etc. You can't remind kids too often. I'm an Edina parent and attended the parents meeting on Friday night, 11/4. The head coach made it clear that hazing is not tolerated. He also told us that the kids were given the massage too. It was pointed out, however, that TP-ing a house is not considered hazing. As far as I know, that's as far as the Edina kids go with "rookie" initiation these days. Finally, our coach told us that Edina's rules & punishments are more strict than MSHSL. One of the girls hockey captains (a few years ago) was caught smoking, and that was the end of her captain's position. Just my two cents...

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:46 am

Yes I agree but this was all in FUN, parents were all aware and the kids knew what was going on..My last thought on this..I guess we all don't know all what really happened just what we read, right? These are high school girls that may not have known this was wrong, the parents did NOT, RIGHT? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... hcorner</A> at: 11/15/05 10:14 am

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:23 am

I agree the punishment is too harsh! I think in today’s day and age and the idea of taking someone to court and "suing" those school districts pushes those districts to draw the line way before any gray area. Burnsville being one of the largest high schools in the state needs to watch out for the whole lawsuit thing. It only takes one person to be offended here! I'm sure Burnsville Administation consulted the State High School League. It makes the next few games for Burnsville even more difficult depending on the players involved. I'm sure it will be the upper classmen. Hockeyhead

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:40 am

Tough situaiton. I feel bad for the kids and team/coaches and everyone involved. tough for admin too as I'm sure they have a "zero-tolerance" policy that they have to live by, not just state... I saw this in college as a player, and also at the HS level too. But, nothing of what I've heard at BV is anywhere near what I saw firsthand. We do have to protect kids too of course... I see that things are so hyper-sensitive now that it's often not even hazing, but tradition like - even certain responsibilities being given to underclassmen, etc. has even been called hazing. One thing we work on now is NOT having a vicious cycle continue of mistreatment of younger players just as they're younger. Even little tasks we distribute now evenly to the team vs. dropping them on underclassmen "just b/c that's the way it was done to me" as the older kids used to say. The Captains and upperclassmen now take on the majority of the workload, and that's a hard thing to do as they did it as underclassmen when it used to be dumped on them. I'm a little off-topic I guess... I'm all for a safe environment with equal treatment of all, but I just hope that we don't blow things out of proportion.

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:46 am

Last note on this topic as bad as it is. Again I feel bad for the kids the school and the parents. I hope the teams that they play DO NOT RUN THE SCORE UP on them. PLEASE….

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:00 pm

coachcorner: Burnsville is a good team... They will only miss 4 players maximum. Without using names... And I can only guess that they are seniors and juniors being punished... I would think they should still win 3 of the 4 games (Maybe 2) they are missing the suspended players. Burnsville has a deep team and should do fine without the 4 players. They have a great duo in goal and won't miss a beat there! According to the article they will have the other 4 girls (not the first 4) miss 2 games at a time when the coaches deem it... (Kennedy and Rosemount)... Hockeyhead

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:19 pm

Sorry hockeyhead, I don't mean to take anything away from the girls that will be taking there spots. I'm sure they are all very good hockey players as well, a very big school. EP is very good thats all I was saying.. Again sorry if I said someting wrong.

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:29 pm

coachcorner, I wasn't trying to defend the replacement players. Just pointing out... If one of them is a goalie...They will be fine, their back-up is a great goalie... I don't know who is involved, nor do I need to... Most would think that it's the 4 seniors with the 4 games and the 4 juniors with the 2 games at another time. Guilty by association thing... Maybe they will just play 4 defenders and 2 lines, something many teams do anyway! I would guess the coaches know what their doing. Hockeyhead

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:37 pm

Yea I do hope they do well I'm pulling for them. But those 4 seniors with the 4 games and the 4 juniors with the 2 games could be BIG..Again you and me and everyone else does not know who they are. Again I will be pulling for them and the players that take there spots...This is when a team needs to pull togethere as a TEAM ......

SEhockeyDAD · Post by **SEhockeyDAD** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:32 pm

I'm a little late in the conversation, but I'd thought I'd sort of echo ItsNEBG's point with our experiences from Rochester. Like Edina, Rochester's athletic departments' consequences for rules violations are above and beyond the states requirements. If an athlete committed a violation, he or she would immediately miss half the season. A 2nd offense means missing an entire calendar year. It's tough, but Rochester also makes every effort to inform each athlete of the risks they take for unwise choices. Each student is required to attend a meeting before the season where the AD informs everyone of the rules, potential offenses to avoid and clearly informs them of the consequences. Then, each team splits off to team meetings where each coach usually reiterates the AD's message and asks them to think about the choices they make. The Burnsville situation sounds rather lightweight compared to things we've heard, but as the AD explained to us, "if some students show up at your door at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and ask for you son or daughter to come out to breakfast with them, explain to them that you can feed your child yourself and that seldom do good things happen when a group of young people do unsupervised group activities at that time of the day."

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:36 pm

One issue that all schools face when deviating from guidelines is that they open themselves to lawsuits challenging such policies. Eventually a parent will come along that believes that they should side with their kid no matter what and fight for them no matter how wrong what they did actually was. Great life lessons a kid learns from this... I applaud sticking to the rules, but this is a difficult situation in many respects... I also used to be a "stiffer than MSHSL" coach "one & done" substance-use wise, but I've realized that there are reasons why it's not always a life sentence and some value in the "punishment fitting the crime" especially the first time...

SEhockeyDAD · Post by **SEhockeyDAD** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:02 pm

Agreed. Kids deserve a chance to learn their lesson. I'd like to think that many do.

slporiolesfan · Post by **slporiolesfan** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:21 pm

Certainly no one wants to see hazing - i.e. something that is scary, dangerous, etc. That being said there is way to much overreaction to "one parent" calling in to complain. I think the "zero tolerance" policies are often so weirdly enforced that they become a joke. Do you remember the one I think in Maple Grove where a kid had a squirt gun in the backseat of his car - left there by a friend who had been in the car - and he was suspended for bringing a dangerous weapon to school? Where is the common sense anymore? I think school officials in particular hide behind the "we might get a lawsuit tossed at us" argument so much that they neglect to provide reasonable resolutions to issues. In my community for girls soccer there was a tradition that was carried on for many years where on the last day of Captain's practice the underclass players had to line up on the goal line, turn around, and bend over. The upper class players then kicked soccer balls at the younger players from the edge of the penalty box - 18 yds away (how many kids were even hit?). One mom complained to the AD about 2-3 years ago and all the upper class pplayers who were at the session were then suspended for 2 games. Even the under class players (my daughter included) thought the activity was in reality a non-event. Was it necessary to kick balls at the under class players? No. Should they keep doing this? No. When the AD received the call should the team have been told that this was dumb, and they should be stop? Sure. Should the upper class players have lost 15% of their season? I don't think so. In this recent case in Burnsville I think the situation is similar. Is this a smart thing to do? No. I believe that a "jury of adults and kids" looking at an alleged hazing incident would easily know the difference between something done in fun vs. something that was meant to hurt, humiliate or damage. From the description provided, the Burnsville case was not a "high risk" situation. Stop it? Yes. Suspend? No. Should players - seniors - be suspended for almost 20% of the season? Wow - way, way too harsh. In life leaders are required to make judgments. That's one of the key things leaders do. Abdicating tough decisions to "policy" is foolish. True leaders make judgments based on many factors. Obviously they need to be fair - they need to follow guidelines. But when the result of following those guidelines is a punishment that doesn't fit the crime, then the guidelines should be applied and modified appropriately. Even a one game suspension for a tradition that had been followed in previous years, that parents knew about, that the kids did not suffer through, that was not humiliating, etc. is hard - to suspend for 4 games tells me that Burnsville admin lacks common sense. Too often school officials say "my hands are tied - I have to be consistent." I think the reality is that the policies are often poorly designed and written, and the application of the policies can often be even worse. The AD and the Coach together should have communicated to all the players that this was not a behavior that will be condoned anymore and then left as that! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... olesfan</A> at: 11/15/05 5:33 pm

ARM · Post by **ARM** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:04 am

IMO, It is pretty tough to send a message to students that you do not tolerate certain behavior if the only punishment is a warning. Players lost 2 to 4 games of their season -- I doubt anyone will be scarred for life from the suspensions. But maybe some will reflect on their actions and realize that as leaders of the team, they should have stopped and thought that what they were doing was pointless and wrong. Rules exist for a reason. If one chooses to break them, they should be prepared to accept the consequences. Too many parents don't want to see their children punished at all. Sometimes a little punishment early can help eliminate the need for severe punishment later.

madjagfan · Post by **madjagfan** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:08 am

SLPFan--very well put!--the penalty to the players (and team and coach) was way over the top!!

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:16 am

I don't know. If the parents of the players are out there taking pictures of the so called crime against thier daughters would you really think your doing something wrong. I know I wouldn't and most definetly not when I was 16 or 17. I know hazing is one thing but if it was orchestrated with adult supervision then is it the kids who should be punished? One part of the story I am not clear on. One parent did ask that her daughter not be treated the same way. Did they kidnap this player as well? If so then they crossed the line. No means No.

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:29 am

Again: did the kids know they were doing something WRONG? So yes they broke the rules and yes they are being punished but did they know ? they were doing something wrong. I know this has to be a real fine line here. I'm saying this is RIGHT at all, it is NOT. The Coaches the Admin has the right to do what they need to. But what I'm trying to say is these are KIDS 15-16 year olds. Do you think they read the High school rule book? This to them was fun..You have to remember parents knew this and this is what makes it hard for them to understand..SEE my point these were adults that should have said STOP... Thoughts? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... hcorner</A> at: 11/16/05 10:17 am

traveler · Post by **traveler** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:03 am

Are we now that permissive in this society that have to find blame in the coaches and admins not telling them to do this type of activity. Have we come to the point where a coach must stand in front of his team and tell them that to degrade or other wise mistreat another is unacceptable? Even if the act is done for their amusment? Kudo's to the punishment, Kudos to the admin. If this is tolerated then what next, How far is too far. When does it cease to be funny? What has this type of activity got to do with hockey or team building ? If you need to bring your young players into the mix a team event that generates positive outcomes such as chairitable work together seems much more advisable. To the question, Did the kids know, they should have long before their coach got involved, perhaps in kindagarten, ie: treat people as you would like to be teated. nuff said good enough for those being punished !!!

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:27 pm

I think they were treating the others as they wanted to be treated. It said in the article that the new comers were having as much fun as the ones kidnapping them. I am sorry but this is a case were you have consent from both parents and individuals and it was done under supervision. I am not seeing anybody being mistreated. I am still not clear on what happened to the girl who's parents said not to treat her the same.

muskiehockey · Post by **muskiehockey** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:28 pm

team comraderie! once again parents get involved and things go to heck. parents knew what was going on. I'm sure if the parents would have expressed such concern to their daughter and other players they would have left the kid alone. this deal is unfortunate. it is a good team building activity. parents knew and waited to blow the whistle.

blankpaper1234 · Post by **blankpaper1234** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:43 pm

okay so.. im one that is on this team and i think it is crap.. im also one who was "hazed" if thats what everyone wants to say.. the truth is NOTHING happened.. what happened with the parent is.. they told coach about it so he was "aware" i guess.. but then coach had to tell admin about it.. and they over reacted.. the so called other reason he told is because he didnt want his younger daughter to be "initiated" (again if thats waht you want to say happened) in the same manner if she made varsity one day. i personally think that he blew the whistle because his daughter.. is a bubble player.. as in.. JV and Varsity.. and knowing they would get suspension because of the "zero tolerence rule" shed have more play time.. oh and our schools zero tolerance is bull.. many other teams do it worse then us and they get nothing..danceline threw people in a lake after kiddnapping them.. and all admin said was.. next time make sure everyone has a lifejacket.. and volleyball makes the girls go to eat in diapers and they got nothing.. when the swimteam had it ALL they got was community service.. we got suspensions.. community service.. plus seniors got their lunch taken away and have to have a study hall now.. and they were talking about taking their prom and graduation away.. and they were talking about taking dances away from the rest of us too.. THERE'S NO EQUALITY.. our priciples a b*tch we were "kidnapped" big deal.. we got there.. and had a TEAM sleepover played games and ate food.. nothing harmful.. this all pretty much blew up and we're struggling on the ice with the JV girls coming up.. but they are doing fantanstic..but again.. its not the experienced players. we were missing 5 players and got killed by EP.. but the score really didnt reflect how we played.. we also had bad refs which didnt help the case.. last night we played chaska and had 5 suspended girls and one hurt.. so we were missing 6.. we were down 2-0 in the begining of the 1st and came back to tie it 2-2 then in the last 2 secs of the 1st we got a goal off a slapshot from the redline.. to go outta the period 3-2.. we held em through the 2nd.. and in the 3rd they tied it up.. we went into OT and lost.. it was upsetting.. we have applevalley tomorrow.. hopefully we'll win <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... per1234</A> at: 11/18/05 11:52 pm

tnt99 · Post by **tnt99** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:00 pm

I agree with traveler on most points. Unfortunately, we live in a generation where little is tolerated because of circumstances that have evolved through the years. With the history of violence in this country, where does one draw the line between what is "fun" and what is unacceptable. Had nothing been done, there would be the flip side. Probably a lawsuit against the school district because someone out there is waiting to pounce on every opportunity that arises! We DO need to take the blame off the coaches and administration and place it on the parents. We need to get back to parenting and not being "friends" with our children. It was an unfortunate situation, and for those that grew up in the 50's and 60's where being a kid was just that, keep in mind that life today is not like that. Lesson learned the hard way to a good group of kids! Make the best out of the remaining season and move forward.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:16 pm

too many parents are trying to be their kid's friend, and not their parent.

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