Eden Prairie the real deal

mnhockeygal · Post by **mnhockeygal** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:47 am

EP proved to be the real deal this weekend and if someone is going to beat them, I dont know who it will be. They have the best top 2 lines in state, solid G, and easily the best group of D. They dismantled Roseville,AHA, and Anoka. Dont see any chance of Wayzata beating them again in sections - not sure about Benildes (havent seen them). SSP has proven to be a very overrated team. They are a good A team and will be a legit threat there, but it appears their early 10-0 start to season was a bit misleading. They do not have the firepower to be a dominant team and right now, they are susceptible to lose to any respectable team that works hard. Their style, their D and solid G will allow them to in every game and be a factor, but they certainly have not lost their last game.

STCplaya18 · Post by **STCplaya18** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:03 pm

I personally think that EP will take state in Class AA.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:29 am

mnhockey, i really can't say at this time that ssp has proven to be over rated. i see them behind ep a step with about a dozen other teams. besides ep no one stands out and most of these secondary teams are all very even. they can beat anyone and can get beat by anyone. ep's opponents the second time around will prove much more difficult to beat than they were the first time around. i suggest you look at history and how well wayzata has played them in the past. i see wayzata as having a good shot at beating them again..

mnhockeygal · Post by **mnhockeygal** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:12 am

Hubba - I agree everyone is a notch below EP and I also agree Wayzata has proven they can find a way to beat them. Right now I dont see anyone beating them, but they have a murderous section and the heat of that and being #1 absolutely could catch up to them. As for SSP, sorry, I disagree. In their last 7 games they have scored 11 goals and are 2-4-1. In those 7 games they played 2 terrible teams (Mahtomedi and Richfield), 3 ok/good teams (HM,Blaine and Hibbing) and 2 top teams (NSP and Roseville). They are nowhere near where they were a month ago. I dont have any "connections" so this just my humble opinion. I see about 2-3 girls games per week and make 80% of SSP games. I dont see them in that next tier below EP. Earlier in the year, yes - now I dont. I am not sure what has happened - if its lack of scorers, effort, or coaching or what, but they are an average team the last 3 weeks. I saw all the games in this recent stretch except Richfield and HM and from what I was told they were very poor in both. Blaine and NSP just outworked them. Sometimes it seems like a lack of effort, but also I think they just dont have enough speed up front.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:50 am

mnhockeygal, i agree with the way they have been playing lately, i just don't expect it to continue for the rest of the year. these are the same girls that played varsity for the last couple years and during that time they could basically show up and win. this year they can't and i am betting that they have or soon will learn that. once they learn it they will be in good shape again. if they are to start playing every night they will have to win on strong d. they don't have the scorers up front and the last couple weeks have brought the fact into the light. the focus should be for them on a strong d effort every night (something they never had to do in the past) and chipping in 2-3 goals a game. that to me doesn't sound unreasonable, if they can do that they can win 90% of its games. i really don't know what the coaching focus is on but to me it would be suicide to continue to try to play as they did in past years, they don't have the personel to pull it off. one thing that i find very telling over the past couple weeks is that for how bad they are playing they still could have won everyone of those games. tells me something about the competition as well as a couple little adjustments for ssp and they will be able to beat those teams if another chance arises...

mnhockeygal · Post by **mnhockeygal** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:55 am

Hubba - Fair analysis. The key is a little more offensive pressure to fortify their strong D and goaltending. A couple nice wins could spur them right back - but like you said, they need to outdig teams - no more just showing up and winning! We will see!

Mnhckyscout · Post by **Mnhckyscout** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:12 pm

Unfortunatly, Ep recruits more then the Army does. Morris is not a nice guy and is too concerned with winning. Ep is good but only because they recruit. It is a real shocker to all the girls who came up in the system only to have their spot taking by another out of town girl.

mnhockeygal · Post by **mnhockeygal** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:40 pm

Yeah but look at how he coaches them to impressive victories over Kennedy!

hockeygymnast · Post by **hockeygymnast** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:25 pm

The real down side of players from outside the community playing on HS teams is that they take roster positions away from girls that have played in their community youth hockey associations. EP should not be singled out on this issue. There are many other high schools that are in a similar situation. The MSHSL should show some courage and just make it a rule if a player transfers to another school, she forfeits a year of athletic eligibility. Regarding the practice of recruiting; I doubt very much if the EP coaches recruit. The recruiting that I have been familiar with goes something like this: Player A and player B play on an off-season team together. Typically these teams are a lot better than a typical HS team. Player A attends Slapshot HS (a not so good hockey HS) and Player B attends Hotshot HS (a hockey power). Player B says to A that she should attend Hotshot HS for obvious reasons... play with good players, have a chance to make State, etc. Player A then starts working on her parents who many times will be more excited than the player about switching schools. Or the other scenario is that the parents from Hotshot High will start the recruiting of good players from Slapshot High. It has been my experience that the HS coaches typically do not have to get involved in the process. As previously mentioned, make the players sit out a year if they transfer.

defensedad · Post by **defensedad** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:47 pm

hockeygymnast, Here is a bit from a thread a while a go. r2d2hockey Registered Member Posts: 73 (8/25/05 6:16 pm) Reply Re: Class of 2008 All-Star Team -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My kid has been *actively* recruited by an EP coach but we have declined.

puckhead63 · Post by **puckhead63** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:58 pm

I just had to chime in on this subject. Shortly after the season was over (last year), I was in one of the coaches office and during a couple hour period, he received 2 calls from parents of girls looking to possibly transfer to EP. The coach told me that that was his 5th phone call from parents requesting information about possibly transfering to EP. In both cases, I can assure you that the calls were unsolicited and in fact, was advised to stay the course at their current school. EP had/has enough talent that they do not need to look outside.

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:39 am

I have to agree with everything hockeygymnast says. Parents and players do the recruiting. Also if we change the transfer policy we have to do something about private schools. In the early 1980's you saw Hill Murray as a boys hockey power. Now with the change of open enrollment (1988-89) things have leveled out with Hill Murray and some of the other area public schools. There is still an uneven playing field, altough it's more balanced. If the high school league changes the policy they will have to change things for private schools as well. In the 1980's you didn't see AAA summer teams competing in hockey. That has become the biggest draw with open enrollment. Maybe Minnesota should do what Wisconsin has done and create a whole new state tourney for private schools. Something to think about, although I know it's been said on this site before. Hockeyhead

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:37 pm

head, i have a niece that so far has been contacted by three coaches to try and get her to play for them. the coaches are in on it too...

hockeygymnast · Post by **hockeygymnast** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:41 pm

Re: Privates. A couple options: resurrect the private/independent tourney for privates only. To make it interesting, you could add teams like SSM, Madison Capitols. Wisconsin Wild, etc. You could call it Upper Midwest Championship. In reality, the privates are AAA teams. So, let them play against other AAA teams. Would be a great tournament. Another option: put all the privates in one section; the winner would go to State. For various reasons, neither option will occur.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:03 pm

hockeygym, one reason would be discrimination.... i think a better option would be for a couple more schools to opt out of the mshsl and into prep status.

hockeygymnast · Post by **hockeygymnast** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:53 pm

Hubbaa, Your niece has bee recruited by three coaches? Where does she play now? You'll have to somehow let this forum know where she ends up, so we can follow her career.

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:12 am

Hubba, From what I heard it goes like this... It's not illegal for a coach to contact a family or player that is under 7th grade (meaning 5th or 6th grade)... Once that player enters 7th grade it becomes illegal (I could be wrong, it might always be illegal)... Also, you know as well as I do that coach Palmquist didn't go out knocking on doors or watching the u-12 state tourney and pass out flyers for SSP's program. He may have had people inquire about his program. If this happens he or any other coach can answer questions as long as they call him... He cannot make contact with them. I could be wrong, but this is what I've heard from others. Also, if what you say is true... it's up to your nieces parents to bring this up to the state high school league. Usually parents don't want to go this route.. Hockeyhead

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:51 am

head, just because rules are in place doesn't mean people will follow them. as far as reporting coaches, i guess i don't see why a parent should. what is in it for the parent beside wasting some time on a situation that really doesn't negatively affect them or the kid. sure we would like to see fair play but we can't count on parents to police it and the mshsl sure doesn't have the resources either. maybe harsh penalties for recruiting violations would stop it but then again who is going to do the police work. i couldn't justify throwing money at this when money is much more needed elsewhere. the mshsl is over its head when it comes to issues like this. as i said in the past i think it only a matter of time before all high school athletics will be a thing of history and the clubs will take over. then we will really see some good recruiting...

hockeyhead · Post by **hockeyhead** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:58 am

It's like speeding! Everyone pushes the rules a little and the ones that push to much get caught. I guess I live in a world where I think everyone follows to rules! It's too bad some feel they are above the rules. I still don't think I have enough information to be pointing fingers! We could name dozens of schools that have benefited from open enrollment, not just the teams that are at the top! Hockeyhead

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:37 am

Although I'm sure some recruiting goes on, in 99 out of 100 transfers it is the family transferring that initiates the transfer. They become dissatisfied with their current situation and decide to move on. If you believe transferring is a problem, focusing on recruiting won't solve it. People seek out top programs because they are top programs and they want what is best for their child. If you want the kids in your school to stay with your program then make it a good program. Give the girls the resources and consistent coaching they need. Hire a coach committed to the program and give them time to build it. Many schools just hire a teacher so they can collect extra money. Some schools give their Varsity and Junior Varsity an hour a day to split up for practice. In other words they do the minimum amount to get by. You will usually find they have the same attitude toward the academic side. You will find that many girls transferred for athletics but when they look back it was an even better move from the academic side.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 pm

As time passes, I've seen more and some of my thoughts on all of this have changed/evolved to some degree. I'm quite certain that 99.9% of the players and their families that transfer initiate discussions themselves from what I've heard/seen specifically of the top programs/dynasties transfer-wise in the state so far. Privates are in the same situation, as I used to bash them but they too attract talent based on what they have to offer academically & athletically. Sometimes, for top players especially, or any player it's as much about finding a like mindset/mentality with the majority of a group rather than a small minority. This is another item that I've heard cited in discussions. From what I can tell, the education (mostly) & complete package (including hockey) are the motivation, and it doesn't take a coach initiating for people who do their homework (parents, players, general public, etc.) to understand that this is the case. From what I understand the first great metro G Hockey dynasty was built homegrown almost entirely (Roseville). After this happened, they started to attract some transfers for a while (I call this the Roseville Syndrome), but now - from what I understand - are still very strong drawing on their strong past and having obviously used this to continue to build from within (they overcame the RV Syndrome). The second great metro G Hockey dynasty was pretty much the same way, with only a sprinkling of outside players in the early years, but then predominantly more as the years passed (SSP). We have to recognize though that - like Roseville before them - SSP's best to date have probably been all homegrown, with a few more recent exceptions. The likely third great metro G Hockey dynasty is still in the making, but it too is following a similar path. Started with being predominately home grown, but has started to attract that outside talent as well (EP). As to if they will fulfill the true "dynasty" label remains to be seen, but appears quite likely. There have been some great individuals, and teams, in between these 3, but these stand out as the big three. There appears to be some great similarities relative to the team composition as the years pass in these 3 examples. the trend usually starts with predominantly homegrown top talent, then their dominance attracts other top players from the surrounding areas, and then hopefully the cycle comes full circle as it did at RV when the continued strong play builds tradition and starts to create strong building at the youth ranks from within. What can happen though is that too much outside talent can potentially start to deter younger players from ever feeling like they'll have a shot at the HS team. RV overcame this, if SSP & EP will remains to be seen - and EP also has to face more private school concerns than many realize. EP does have a ton of kids to work with though, plus great economic affluence, so this helps them. SSP is true class A school, so this leaves them with less kids obviously, and also a much different economic and otherwise demographic to work with. I would say that RV is more middle of the road in both these respects. Maybe this helped them come full circle. This all being said, what we're seeing today is nothing new. Heightened awareness? Maybe. But, maybe the issue that we truly have is if has this been "ethical" all along, and recent scores, events, etc. when much more info. is available is just making us all more upset and hypersensitive. There will always be some bad blood between dynasties I think as the passing of the torch is not always an easy thing. Some finger pointing is happening, and I think that's to be expected. What would help is some way of addressing the score differential and how teams can ethically handle these situations. That may minimize the finger pointing, etc. I think I outlined this in another <a href="http://p100.ezboard.com/fmnhsfrm7.showM ... =845.topic" target="top">post</a>. Also, to play a little devil's advocate, we have to look at all of this from a flip side view. Is it fair for a top dynasty team to have to sit its players 1-2 periods a game (when they only get 25-30 games a year) due to being so superior? It's an interesting question, but it leads me to a bigger problem... These teams should have the capability of constructing a schedule that will allow them to not have to be in this situation often. That, I believe, is the solution to this and would alleviate a lot of trouble. Some would also argue that the extra section and state games that these top teams get would make up for periods lost due to sitting top players in the regular season - so maybe it's all a wash in the end... Lastly, open enrolment is here to stay. In all three examples above, the HS's are OUTSTANDING academically. The coaches are outstanding (and likely helped indirectly attract kids through their dedication to, and passion for, the game). The teams are comprised of kids that have a similar mindset and play hockey with a purpose, not just to pass time. Their off-season offerings attract not only the top instructors (including their own coaches), but also the surrounding area top players, which can often lead to recruiting violation claims - when truly they are just trying to offer the best camps/clinics/opportunities/competition in practice/training/scrimmages/games for their kids to better their own programs. Similarly, many of these coaches are said to be dedicating all this time to "recruit" when they do NDP, CODP, AAA, festivals, etc. - when in reality again they just have a sincere passion and investment in making the game great. I've personally been accused of all of this as well - but my recent home grown class A small school team clears my name quickly to a large degree. If I were at EP, SSP, or elsewhere I'd be guilty of every recruiting violation in the book in many eyes I'm sure though as those teams are top teams whose reputation, coaches (indirectly), players, success, and schools have attracted outside players - it's the whole package... Private schools have many of the same concerns as those publics listed above. They usually have top caliber dedicated and passionate coaches. It's no coincidence that many of the top teams (public and/or private) have coaches that are active in year round promotion OF THE SPORT (read as not their team) through various events sponsored by various coaching and sports associations. Their own players often populate these events too, which isn't a surprise as the coach and player seem to share the same dedication and passion for the game in programs with this mindset (top public & private). I think that we all need to be grateful for what all these coaches have done. No, not everyone will like them, and that's to be expected - they will be accused by many too of many things. Thank god they have thick skin and haven't said "to heck with this" for all the crap they take! As without many of the top team coaches we'd be lost as far as support for the sport in general. These coaches have fought hard for women's rights in this sport specifically. There are always a few examples of bad decisions by coaches, but predominantly these are the exception, and not the rule. Let's not forget how little these people are getting compensated as well... Their passion allows for small/little/no payment... That's enough for now, and I truly think that with a little score control a little sooner and better scheduling options <a href="http://p100.ezboard.com/fmnhsfrm7.showM ... =845.topic" target="top">(see my earlier post)</a> that we wouldn't have all the drama we do now about transfers, scores, etc. - especially relative to the dynasties of late. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 1/17/06 2:37 pm

StirTheMix · Post by **StirTheMix** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:27 pm

GHS is right that coaches have a lot going on to be doing any recruiting. But it might not take all that much of their time. What is it called when you're at a rink in the offseason, at NDP or CODP or "your name here" off season league game and a coach who is not from your school comes up and puts his arm around your kid, and starts singing the praises of how good she would look in the banana and mauve colors of his school's team? And then the next time you meet in a similar situation he repeats it, and adds, "oh by the way you'll be on a line with Mary Anne Gaborik too"? And then you hear from Mary Anne's parents that he's told them that your daughter will be on Mary Anne's line if he can get your kid to transfer. Is that recruiting or not? And every time you run into that coach it's the same story.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 pm

I get to post this about 3 times a year, from bylaw 308 of MSHSL "Any verbal or written contact initiated by a representative of another school soliciting the transfer of a high school student or junior high school student to participate in a sport will be considered as asserting undue influence, for which the school may be publicly censured, removed from tournament competition, or suspended from the League." Your example sounds like recruiting but rather than than complain here, call the MSHSL, they could actually do something about it. it takes roughly the same effort as posting.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:15 pm

I regularly praise the kids of other programs as they deserve it, not out of desire to recruit - although it is misconstrued as such sometimes I think. Some other coaches do the same. I've seen some top caliber kids that joke often with other team coaches/players/parents/etc. about transferring, playing on a line with player x, etc. I've even seen in person, or in pictures, kids with other team's jerseys, socks, sweatshirts, etc. on - but this is likely as they're all friends with each other (players from other teams) etc. through their off-season play. Lastly, I pray that no coach is putting their arms around any kid even while singing their praises as you say. It's unacceptable. Please note, I'm not defending recruiting - but I am speaking to the misperceptions that many acts are (negative) recruiting motivated. And, I have to say, that there are always going to be the exceptions - but let's not consider them the norm. We speak of the airplane crashes, not all the flights that go well, and I think we are missing much of the positive in the game here in a similar way. FWIW.

hockeygymnast · Post by **hockeygymnast** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:37 am

I don't know what other parents think; but if a coach put his arm around my daughter and said the things that STIR overheard being said; that would be the last place my daughter would play. If it's true, it is a total bush league move by that coach. And I don't think my daughter would be impressed either.

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