Transfers = Championships

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:01 pm

GHS, YOu hit the nail on the head - this is predominantly a class AA issue. With all due respect, and IMO, when reading your responses on the issue of Open Enrollment, you don't have alot of conviction one way or the other. You seem to acknowledge some of the negative effects of O/E while at the same time minimizing them. You also seem to empathize with those who choose to jump programs, citing frustration with the quality of education at the former school, and the need to do what's in the best interest of the individual player and their need for exposure and chance to compete on a winning team as justification. Please don't misunderstand, I totally respect your views and position on this issue. You always present both sides of an issue in the best possible light - which I appreciate. I am simply saying that perhaps you would be more passionate one way or the other if it had bigger implications on your team. I would guess that if PCG attracted your top 2 scorers over to their program for next year, you may feel more passionate about the subject. Those of us who walk down the path of the "grass roots" method of building a program - put in thousands of hours at the youth level in order to build/support a winning HS program that is completely community based, and then have to face the teams that "attract" the transfers who are instantly instrumental in helping them win championships. Which path would you want your sons/daughters to follow when it's their turn to give back to hockey ???????????? Personally, give me the "grass roots" path, build from within, do the best you can with what you've developed from within - these are the true champions. Rube

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:06 pm

rube, simley has kids transferring out all the time. robertson (ssp) is from igh... i think ghs feels the pain somewhat, possibly not to the level that you or others do but he is a well known coach on a very public board here. to get his true opinions on sticky subjects as this you really aught to try to contact him privately so he can honestly address the issue without getting lambasted by everyone that doesn't agree with him on this board.

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:34 pm

Hubbaa, Good point ! I think it's wonderful that GHS so actively participates on this board. I respect his willingness to share thoughts/ideas in such a public venue. I guess I need to be done ranting about this subject - I have made my point to the best of my ability - unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse - better keep your stars happy in your program or watch out !!! Rube

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:38 pm

rube, i agree. the subject is very emotional, especially for those that have given so much of themselves only to feel abandoned by the kids/parents down the road.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:50 pm

To be honest, I'm biased & conflicted. I open enrolled myself when the law was first passed. I've coached some very good hockey players that had to make tough choices similar to the ones that I made. I see the positives as a player, the negatives as a coach, and as a result am sympathetic to both sides and feel the need to paint the proper picture of both sides of the debate. It's easy to bash the transfers. The first year I was a coach, I lost my own sister to transfer. The second year, I helped one of my star players look at private school options as she felt that best fit her, while gaining a D1 transfer. My third year I lost two kids to transfer, but gained two top players via transfer. The fourth year I gained two more NDP's before moving programs. The fifth year I was in a Class A program and all this changed. It became about keeping kids by offering a quality program as described above. I don't need to gain outside talent to compete in playoffs, but my section, conference, and schedule was still too challenging in many ways. I've been on both sides, and I see the plusses and minuses. I don't believe that the G Hockey in IGH will see the transfers out like they have before, but time will tell. One thing I made a BIG effort to do was to bring back some of those families/players that had roots in IGH but played HS & otherwise elsewhere. We've also stressed the impact of the players who stayed and did well. I think this is key. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 2/28/06 2:11 pm

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:52 pm

rube, the other side of the issue is what happens to the kids that transfer that aren't good enough? i remember a girl that transferred in her sr year after an all-conference jr year from another school. she split time between the third and fourth line. sure she won her championship but i wonder what she thought of the move? another boy transferred in from some small town. this kid was the local hockey hero of this particular place. well, he didn't make the varsity team! he was so crushed by this he ended up committing suicide. i would suggest parents really look at this side of the issue also before taking the plunge. one has to remember this age group is very, very delicate at times and the maturity (emotional and physical and psychological) have to be taken into account with a consideration that the student that transfers doesn't or won't have a rosey time. how will the student/family handle such a "crisis"?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:03 pm

There is something to be said for being the big fish in a small pond, etc. Also, these are the sacrifices and challenges that a kid must be willing to face. We also can't mistake players that transfer for accomplished players. They still have to be able to do it on the rink. Just becuase you transfer doesn't make you a good player. Some think that college coaches like to see kids be able to uproot and move on to show their dedication to the game. I can remember overhearing some private school administrators make this point to kids looking at their school. The truth is that players should still be able to stay put and get recognized, etc. but it may be tough to do so - and I can tell you that some transfers do backfire too and don't result in positive outcomes. But, that's the risk that some wish to take...

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:26 pm

ghs, if some coaches are telling kids as you suggest that would be my first sign to turn the other direction. dedication to the game has nothing to do with transferring. it has a lot to do with giving to the game in the form of volunteering with coaching, clinics, being a good role model, etc.... that is the type of bs that needs to stop in my opinion. impressionable kids are told all sorts of bs! for what? just to get a young kid to play hockey at this particular school? there has to be more important things for these people to do... i wish you would publicly let me know the school but i know it isn't possible. besides you have too much class for that...

husky5 · Post by **husky5** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:35 pm

Rube,Hubba,GHS: It seems this subject will never go away. Over the past few years I have been reading the board and given my opinion probably once or twice too much. Look at the our society of "What have you done for me lately", mentality. Over the past 3 years (GHS) how many coaches have resigned or been pushed out of their program. I believe it's been 20% per year. Folks, that's alot of good coaches hanging up their skates becuase parents can't wait for a program to build "Grass Roots style" to turn into a feeder program. Until parents just parent and kids just play and coaches just coach the dog will always chasing it tail. I am afraid the system is broke and no one really wants to fix it because the MSHSL/School Adminstrator and AD's run for cover anytime a lawyer or parent walks into the building. How many coaches will be in a different place next year. On the Boys Board there is a question, "Where are all the Good Coaches?" The answer of course is "At home". I know there are many very good coaches out there. But we all know more than a hand full that just wanted to coach and give back what was given to them. Now many have had it and want it no more. Watch the Board the next several weeks after banquets and see how many coaches "Retire" or "Move on" to another place. I am sorry for being long winded on this subject of O/E. The problem not just O/E . This is a small piece of the total problem in athletics for all schools and all districts. It seems to me that we are attacking the most visible part of the issue (O/E) and not attacking the reasons that it exsists. Solutions: I honestly don't no anymore. I thought I knew once but becuase of all the correctness of our culture and my lawyer will beat up lawyer, I just shake my head. It seems so obvious but we don't work together anymore.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:42 pm

I should also mention that I have an open discussion with my kids about transfering. I tell them that I want to be the first to know if they're considering, and I tell them that I won't hold it against them if they so choose to do so. I don't want kids in my program that feel trapped or don't want to be there. I prefer to have kids that want to make the most of the opportunities that I can help them get. I make sure they know that I'm their #1 advocate, and that I will do whatever I can to help them get opportunities that their talent justifies. I also need to point out that in some respects I've seen transfers "backfire" firsthand. I didn't play too much in HS after going to a very solid HS program, but I don't regret it as the education and experience in general still was wonderful. As to the specific school relative to the comment I made earlier, it wasn't in G Hockey and it was a number of years ago - but I won't disclose the school obviously. I think the point that this administrator was trying to make was that uprooting made such a player more attractive to D1 programs that were far away.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:43 pm

husky, i agree. i just shake my head and accept it and am gratefull that i can at least still watch a high school game when i want.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:52 pm

husky - one thing I thought of was that the turnover in G HS coaches is what also contributes to the transfers. Meaning that coaches are rarely in place long enough to create a strong program, and it can't be done overnight. 3-5-7- maybe 10 years I think are needed in some cases. How many coaches have been in the Girls game that long with ANY program, let alone ONE program?!?!? How many coaches are given a chance to "rebuild" with poor records and not be run out of town in the process? A lack of "staying the course" is evident in much of society. From how often people transfer jobs, to everything else. I think what makes this tough coaching wise is that so often schools are afraid of legal challenges by parents any time they have to stand up for themselves. I know some great coaches that have lost their jobs for standing up for morals, ethics, values, AND LAWS!!! The worst story I heard was one coach that caught players high at a team event and turned them in & talked to the players about not doing this. One parent - a lawyer - the next day was at school demanding the coach be fired over false allegations... Talk about getting rid of quality coaches or not working together! Who wouldn't just throw up their hands and quit?!?!... If they hadn't already been fired for doing what's right...

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:59 pm

GHS, Again, well said. I hadn't considered what a kid thinks when they are on their 2nd or 3rd coach in 3 years. The kids need stability, commitment, dedication, etc from the coaches in their program. They will obviously look for that elsewhere if they don't have it at home. One thing we haven't mentioned yet is the positive affect that a well-organized booster club can provide a coach in his efforts to build a program. Parental support of the players and coaches can make the coaches job so much more enjoyable. Finally, transfers can actually backfire, and we all know of a few specific examples of such transfers. However, in EP's particular situation - the transfers worked out quite nicely. Oh well, I guess I should count my blessings - we have a wonderful homegrown built program in the eastern suburbs that provides our girls U8-HS with so many terrific opportunities !!!!

IGiveBlood · Post by **IGiveBlood** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:27 pm

That is for the short term for EP H.S. the transfers have worked out quite nicely but in the long term the damage done to Bloomington's and EP's youth program may be much greater. It just won't be as obvious right away.....just look at SSP

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:30 pm

I agree time will tell. I do believe that there are many differences between SSP & EP geographically, demographically, economically, school size, suburb's development phase, etc.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:32 pm

Support by strong boosters is very important for any program to be strong & well supported - a coach by him or herself can't be the booster club and the coach!

netmindersmom · Post by **netmindersmom** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:59 pm

How many girls quit the HS program in their junior or senior year because a transfer is coming? EP lost 7 seniors and 1 junior (they are playing on u19 team). There is talk of more transfers next year, a freshman quit before the end of the season. The U14 girls are wondering if there will be a spot for them. Is it worth losing more girls than you gain? I guess so if you look at EP.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:57 am

blood, i would say the transfers into ssp did very little if any damage to the program. i can see them possibly hurting ep's simply because ep has incredible numbers that may lead many to transfer out. when you mention ssp you are looking at numbers of maybe a couple dozen or so? girls in the u14 program. this doesn't have anything to do with transfers, but a lot to do with available kids that are interested and can afford it. with costs continually going up the numbers in ssp will even go lower and won't have much effect on ep. you have to understand hockey is quickly becoming an elitist sport and in ssp you won't find many in that category...

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:29 am

To the point of transfers hurting the youth program, I would add the following....... We all need to understand the dynamics between youth and HS in most communities. Many of us involved in the youth programs are trying to establish working relationships with the HS coaches. We are creating mentor programs where HS players volunteer time with the youth teams, and host social functions like an afternoon skate with the HS team/ice cream party, etc. In turn, this has created a stronger bond between the HS and youth, which results in many, many more of the youth players attending the HS games - cheering them on - wanting to be just like the varsity players - making the varsity team someday!! My point is ... These youth players are much closer to the HS program than in the past. They know the varsity players. You can bet that the kids on the U14A and U12A teams know exactly how many seniors are graduating, and hence how many varsity spots are "open" for next year. In our program, there are 3 varsity spots "open" for next year (assuming all the returning varsity players earn their spots back). That leaves the entire JV team, and any 7-9th grade kids from the U12A and U14A competing for those 3 spots. Some of these youth players have been in our program since they were 4-5 yrs. old - training in our local summer program - working hard to earn that varsity spot....... then along comes 3 drive-in transfers that have never been a part of the community, or sweat a single drop for the local youth program, and they take the 3 open spots ahead of any outstanding U12A or U14A or JV player ????? Come on people - you gotta agree that this scenario really stinks !!!

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:43 am

Rube... You have some valid concerns, do you see a difference between open enrollment transfers and change of residence transfers? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... xk1>xk1</A> at: 3/1/06 10:43 am

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:46 am

rube, i guess the point that has to also be made is that life just isn't fair. it's a tough lesson, especially for the parents that are working a couple jobs and sacraficing time and money just to be able to afford to pay for the kids hockey. this to me is a far, far, far greater crime than some transfers.

ItsNEBG · Post by **ItsNEBG** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:24 am

As for a residence change - go for it. Living in the school district is the real rule IMO. Yes, you'll take the place of a kid who lived there pre-high school, which isn't good. But there are far fewer people who literally move their families so their little Mary Anne Gaborik can play hockey, than there are drive-in players. And make it a "real" residence change, the whole family, not just a player who moves to West Overshoe and lives at Uncle Fester's house or Cousin Bessie's apartment during the school year. And renting an empty apartment just to establish residency stinks too.

JustBob2 · Post by **JustBob2** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:25 am

Hubbaa, just a side comment on the U19 "regular" league versus the U19 "elite" or pre-post teams. This winter season there are 4 U19 teams rostered with MN Hockey, Eden Prairie, Edina, White Bear Lake and Pine City. The feedback is that the girls all had fun fun fun playing hockey. Very similar to junior gold B and U16 teams. The EP team is composed of girls from EP, OMG, BSM, Mpls and Plymouth. The Edina Team has girls from Edina, Chaska. The Pine City Team is girls from Pine City, Chisago Lakes and elsewhere. The White Bear Team had girls from WBL and Stillwater. They played 12 league games and attended 3-4 tournaments in Edina, South Dakota, North Dakota, and Wisconsin. Next year the hope is to add another 2 teams probably from the Plymouth/Wayzata area and having the North west metro with its own team. Key here is to have a forum for girls to keep playing even if they dont want the JV/Varsity type schedule or dont have the skills to make those teams in the bigger communities. Like Junior Gold they had more games than practices and they had FUN.

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:54 am

IMO There is a HUGE difference between "drive-in" O/E transfers., and change of residence transfers !!!! I have spoken to this subject in earlier posts. If a family is willing to uproot their entire family, sell their home, find a new home in the new community, have their kids change schools (siblings included) -I would argue it is a safe assumption that they aren't simply motivated by changing hockey programs for one of their kids !!! I would guess that families willing to make such a move would be considering many, many things other than hockey programs!! On the other hand, the proponents (or enablers) of "drive-in" O/E transfers will tell you that they are looking for better adademics, etc. , but I think that more often than not is a bunch of BS ! The kid wants to play on a better team, doesn't like the coach, wants better exposure, etc. and O/E makes it as easy as jumping in the car every morning and simply driving a little further down the road to a better program - at least be honest about it !!! Rube

hockeyrube · Post by **hockeyrube** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:02 pm

hubbaa, I for one would not put this issue in the "life just isn't fair category", like I would someone's socioeconomic status. The O/E law enacted by the MN legislature is being abused by some people to further their kids/teams prosperity in the game of hockey. To me, it's sick, twisted, and BS !!! The loophole can be closed if enough people have the courage to stand up and say "this just isn't right". By the way - I think this has been a great discussion of a very complicated issue Rube

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