Summer Hockey

[JJhockeySS]

Below is an excerpt from the HSL executive committee. What are parents, players, coaches thoughts on the issue?

Bylaw 208: Summer Coaching Waiver: The feedback that has been received is that many student athletes feel obligated to participate, parents feel they lack opportunity for family vacations and to have quality time with their kids. Inconsistency in the schedule is jeopardizing interest, and free time for kids. An amendment to the by-law (needs to be submitted by Oct 15 deadline). He is requesting input from the Activity Director’s to limit contact from coaches to ten days.

Member schools have the authority to approve a coaching waiver following the fourth Friday in May through July 31st of the same calendar year. During this period salaried and non-salaried members of the student’s sophomore, B squad, junior varsity and varsity high school coaching staff per sport, collectively shall not exceed ten contact days during this period. The ten contact days may be in sequence (i.e. camps, clinics etc) or spread out during the waiver period. Each member schools’ coaching staff for each participating sport may request different ten contact times.

[ghshockeyfan]

I believe, personally, that players feel threatened to play for their coaches summer program. This is not good.

However, some players also benefit greatly from playing during the summer for their HS coach.

The problem I have is that I don't know if it's always best for me to be the only coach that my players see. Meaning, they get me all regular season, and they may be better served to get other coaching to broaden their experience.

Now, there are also exceptions. Extremely passionate coaches that work to continually change their approach, drill set, etc. is a different story (AHA is one that does a great job of this). Coaches/programs that have "guest instructors" help too (EP).

These concerns are extremely important when young players could have the same HS coach for 4-5-6 years, but with the rate of turnover in most schools, no player likely has to worry about this! The only schools that have to worry about this are the best ones (that is, if their coaches don't get fired after winning 20+ games..), and hopefully their coaches are passionate enough to try new things as time goes on - &/or they bring in guest instructors, etc.

The proposal that was cited was very similar to what Simley HS had on the books not all that long ago. The idea was that at a small Class A school this would allow each sport to get some contact during the off-season with their multi-sport athletes, in addition to summer vacation, etc. At first I thought this was the worst thing ever, but then I started to understand that we're running these kids non-stop. I think there needs to be more structure that actually LIMITS or at least combines the efforts of all that is going on. Too many kids are burning out with so much going on as it is now...

The reality of all of this though is that Summer Soccer & Summer Fastpitch are the "real" seasons and most only play the "school" seasons just to stay active. Hockey, on the other hand, is the opposite. Let's hope that Hockey doesn't ever go the way of school soccer & fastpitch. The biggest problem I have is that I have to compete with Summer "Elite" Soccer. I probably wouldn't mind this so much, but each time I lose a hockey player for a year due to a torn ACL it just gets to me. Great sport for cross training, etc., just tough on the legs.

[xk1]

I think if some marginal player feels threatened tehy need to address it with their coach or AD rather than further limit what the HS coaches are able to do. They are already missing about 3 months of hockey training compared to what you get in other states without HS hockey. For they most part these coaches do a great job at a reasonable cost, all this rule would do is increase expenses to some while widening the skill gap between the marginal and better players.

[ghshockeyfan]

We definitely pay some price for HS hockey development wise in the current community based model. I also believe though that this model is what ensures long term viability of the sport beyond that of just the rich & elite playing.

For a while, I thought it may be best to ban a coach from coaching their own players at all during the off season. But, I've went back & forth on this. Some too want HS coaches banned from coaching ANY HS players during the off-season or JUST players that don't play for them as some believe this is where "recruiting" happens with invites to HS program summer camps.

You can't ban coaches from coaching during the off-season, as some do this to pay the bills. It's tough to ban a coach from coaching their own players too, but you could limit it as suggested.

One thing that some coaches do is swap teams during the non-contact period. This may be what's best. Another option may be for the coaches assn to work on an extended Spring/Summer/Fall development program that is more cost friendly and targets skills and at the level that different players need this.

The fees paid for many clinics, camps, leagues, etc. are getting out of control. I agree 100% about the widening of the talent gap if HS coaches can't coach their kids more, but this shouldn't be done at the expense of a kid doing this simply for fear of retaliation (in their mind).

I always preach that everything is "100% optional" during the contact period so that my kids get the point and don't feel "undue influence" but I still think the perception is there that if they don't participate that that isn't a good thing. It truly isn't a good thing if they don't participate as they won't improve. But, for me nothing is going to skew my choices of the best players come regular season. I still have yet to see a HS coach that doesn't pick the best players based on ability. I have a hard time believing that any coach would discriminate based on off-season participation.

Bottom line for me is that it's all about the perception of "undue influence." If the kid feels that way, it's there, no matter if it is or isn't intentional or actually the case.

[xk1]

I think the percieved undue influence you refer to is more an excuse than a reality. I would like to know how many teams are having this issue. How about some real input rather than hear say. I would like to know which school as well. I am aware of only a few where there are even enough hkids to have cuts. Perhaps the people that complained to the MSHSL can can forth rather than just GHS.

[ghshockeyfan]

I guess I'm not talking about getting cut, but instead not getting the 1st line slot vs 2nd, etc. That "impact" due to lack of participation (or perception that this is happening) is the issue?

Obviously for this to escalate to the MSHSL means that some are concerned. Also, we have to remember, rules are rarely written with only G Hockey in mind. My guess is that this has to do more with other sports like Football, etc.

That aside, let's start a poll. If your HS coach runs a summer program, do you feel you have to do it because the HS coach is running it?

[xk1]

No, the poll should ask if you feel you would be discriminated against if you don't.

[ghshockeyfan]

Right, I agree. I guess that was implied by my statement but may be confused...

I would suggest that the word "would" should be replaced with "could" however...

[GoFigure]

I think typically in past years, there have been some RUMORS that if you didn't play summer hockey you would be cut. I can think of a particular school where this was an issue, however, I don't think an honest and fair coach would allow this. I know many coaches where the season starts when tryouts begin. The advantage of a summer hockey program is more indepth work with the girl's. They can also do other programs like Brenner and AAA. It is good to branch out and receive other training. To do this could cost mega $$$$. You could fly all over the country and train if you are that passionate enough. I guess personal preference is the issue here. And of course as always, communication with the coach is essential.

[ghshockeyfan]

Agreed 100%. I should mention that there is the issue of the MSHSL controlling too much of kids lives. I think it's tough at times to compromise between controlling for the right reasons vs. what it prohibits for the wrong reasons...

[xwildfan]

I think the best situation for a hockey player for the off-season is to play on a team that is made up of players/friends from different schools; where this no pressure to win titles; and the players are there because they want to play and also to enjoy being with their "off-season" friends. The role of the coach is to essentially organize the team and open doors in and out of the player's box.

I think players really need a break from their in-season coaches where there is often times way too much seriousness; too much emphasis on "systems"; and players playing the game in a cautious manner because they are afraid of making a mistake and getting yelled at by the coach.

More to add later on the subject. My daughter needs the computer.

[gopher25]

I agree with wildfan... in the sense that they should be playing with other players, in a laid back fun manner. I know some of my kids teammates play on an eastside team with kids from stillwater, roseville,irondale, forrest lake and they have a ton of fun. I think too many players are focusing too much on playing hockey all summer and neglecting to play soccer or softball. I think it is deeply underrated how much other sports actually help your hockey skills. I have also heard from parents in a few different hockey associations over the state, "my kid has to do the high school coaches summer camp..or else they might not make the team". Now that may be a fear of the parent without substance, but it is out there. I have also talked to a few kids over the summers who attend their high school coaches camps and they think it gets stale by the end of 6 weeks and they also feel pressure as if it is a tryout. To be honest every coach whether they admit it or not pays attention to who is there and how each kid is doing. It's human nature to think ahead and see who works well with whom and who is the next young star....
My question is for those coaches out there, isn't a summer camp a small source of revenue for the coach? If that went away would we lose some good coaches who simply can't afford to live on just a coaches salary?

[hockeygod]

Hill Murrays girls hockey coach, Shane Krey used his summer camp to pick his Varsity team. He invited only players he Liked to his summer camp. When Tryouts happened there were players who didn't even show up because they knew they had a varsity spot assured. Although most coaches are capible of looking at players objectivly and using the summer to work with the players, people like Shane Krey abuse the system to the point where people get hurt. The summer should be a time when a Hockey player is allowed to become a better player, not the time to tryout for a team

[hockeyrube]

Wow,

These are kind of heavy allegations to levy on a public forum ??? With all due respect, I have a hard time believing that a coach would tell some of his top players that they could simply skip the tryouts because they were already a lock. Perhaps they were committed to a Fall sport that was still in season (like Cross Country). Also, most coaches who run a Summer program have a fairly substantial "break even point" due to the high cost of icetime, etc. I have heard of very few that limit the participation to relatively few and turn away many others ???

Hopefully, someone close to the situation can shed some light on this, because H/M is a respected school and program.

Rube

[hockeyhound]

The HM summer program was open to anyone. Several girls in the summer program are not even attending HM this year. Two of them are 7th graders this year.

HM had 2 D, 2 goalies and 4 - 5 forwards returning from last year's varsity. I recall seeing all of them at tryouts and captain's practices once their fall season sport was completed.

I have been lurking on this board for some time but when I saw this attack on the HM program I just had to respond.

[hockeygod]

maybe the hill murray coaches should have invited more people to there summer camp, and you fail to mention that there are a few girls that decided Volantarely not to return the Hill murray team. The bottom line is that during tryouts the first two days there were 20 skaters then on the third day after the coaches picked the team there were 30 skaters and the new girls were picked for varsity. If the coaches are so proud of there decisions then why don't they justify them. the bottom line is they can't because they had no clue who was even out there during tryouts.

[hockeyhound]

You seem to think that the HM summer program is by invitation, you are mistaken, it is open to any girl that wishes to attend.

Several of the girls that did not skate on the first day did not have the correct physical forms completed so they could not legally skate with the team.

You make it sound like the varsity team has been picked already, it has not. Some of the JV players have been selected. There are several bubble players that made the trip to Duluth this weekend and will be practicing with the varsity this week.

HM had 24 skaters and 4 goalies tryout last week. Of those 24 skaters, 8 -9 just transferred to HM this year.

You are correct that several girls did not return to play HM hockey this year. One went to play for the Thoroughbreds, one went to Shattuck and a couple decided not to play hockey any more. I do not have the reasons why the players did not return, but only one of them was a full time varsity player from last year.

If you have issues with the HM girls’ hockey program take it up with the coach, athletic director or the school administration.

[hockeygod]

You seem to be the one with the problems with the HM program to be defending it so fervently. If you remember right I had problems with the summer hockey program and as long as your defending the coaches so well, how do you defend Shane Krey watching captains practice which is a direct violation of MSHL rules or how about assigning Equipment early to the kids another Violation. Or how about Shane renting Ice time for The girls Hockey team in September. Maybe thats something that should be taken up with the Athletic Director, School Administration and the Minnesota State High school league. You see some one that bends the rules for his own advantage is not above playing favorites

[hockeyhound]

I am done with any more public discussion on the HM girls' hockey program. It is obvious that you are very emotional about this, welcome to being a hockey parent.

[hockeygod]

you found it very easy to stand up to things when you had no facts to fight with or against, but when facts that can be documented come to light I sense that you find it difficult to defend against the truth...good programs don't need to cheat to be competive.