U12B American Region Tournament

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

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U12B Dad
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U12B American Region Tournament

Post by U12B Dad » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:48 am

Red Division:
N Wright County
Chisago Lakes
Tartan
Wayzata Gold

Blue Division:
St. Francis
Champlin Park
North Metro
Stillwater

Any thoughts? top 3 advance to State

Hockeydaddy
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Let's add National as well

Post by Hockeydaddy » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:56 am

American field looks stronger than National, stronger than Olympic


Tartan, St. Francis, N.Wright County are all REAL good - All could be playing A


Here's the National 12B Field

RED

Owatonna
Edina Green
Lakeville North
Eden Prairie Black

BLUE

Edina Black
Waseca
Woodbury Blue
Red Wing

This field not as deep, but D6 and D8 teams are pretty good

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:50 pm

[Tartan, St. Francis, N.Wright County are all REAL good - All could be playing A]

N Wright County does have an A team. Wait until you see this Tartan team! Talk about an A caliber team playing at the B level! This team has size, strength and can really shoot the puck! I can't beleive that the Tartan association or D2 for that matter chose to play or were allowed to play at the B level this year, especially with 4-5 8th graders on the team, coming off a Regional birth from last year, so you know they have returning players AND they had a very nice 10A team last year! I know it happens each year and I totally get and understand how some of the 'out-of-metro' teams play B over A, but to have Tartan playing B this year is a total mockery of 12B hockey, or for that matter B hockey all-together. Oh well, I guess you can never get enough trophies at the youth level. Looking foward to seeing how they do in HS when they start playing against the stronger competition.

My guess to come out of this Region is:
Tartan, North Metro and Chisago Lakes.
North Metro played in a very competive D3 league this past year so they are battle tested. Tartan is a no brainer based on they would easily have been a .500 or higher 12A team this year and that 3rd team is really a toss-up amoungst Chisago Lakes, NWC and maybe Champlin Park as a dark-horse with their strong goalie. IMO[/quote]

mn hockey dad 66
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Post by mn hockey dad 66 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:04 pm

Hockey121330 there are no 8th graders on the Tartan team.

drop the puck
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Post by drop the puck » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:24 pm

hockey121330 wrote:[Tartan, St. Francis, N.Wright County are all REAL good - All could be playing A]

N Wright County does have an A team. Wait until you see this Tartan team! Talk about an A caliber team playing at the B level! This team has size, strength and can really shoot the puck! I can't beleive that the Tartan association or D2 for that matter chose to play or were allowed to play at the B level this year IMO
Tartan lost their only real D2 competition when Irondale, Forest Lake and Mahtomedi moved up to 12A hockey. Highland had two teams in the League last year, one this year. Highland has a bubble of pretty good players in 7th and 8th grade. Stillwater also has a decent group of girls in this age range.

Stillwater probably benefits the most by having the other teams move to 12A probably enabled them to reach regionals.

What is Champlin Park doing playing B hockey without an A team.

hs hockey fan
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Post by hs hockey fan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:19 pm

Olympic Region

Red Division
Cloquet-Purple
Long Prairie
International Falls
Duluth Ice Breakers

Blue Division
Northern lakes (36-0-0)
Cloquet-White
Hibbing
Alexandria

This Region looks like it has one strong team N.Lakes which is combined with two cities so this team has gone unoticied throughout the year but everybody is rpping on tartan for playing b when why isnt this team playing A with this record??? Tartan has been battle tested with playing Edina Green and 2 out of the 3 Wayzata teams. Tartan puts in a lot of work and it shows on their record and the way they play hockey.

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:44 pm

hs hockey fan wrote:Olympic Region

This Region looks like it has one strong team N.Lakes which is combined with two cities so this team has gone unoticied throughout the year but everybody is rpping on tartan for playing b when why isnt this team playing A with this record??? Tartan has been battle tested with playing Edina Green and 2 out of the 3 Wayzata teams. Tartan puts in a lot of work and it shows on their record and the way they play hockey.
You're right, Northern Lakes looks like an A team on paper; however once again you get into the out-of-metro teams and their abilty to play at the A level without extensive travel, etc. At the B level this is going to happen and most people can understand why maybe a Northern Lakes team plays B over A, doesn't make it right but easier to understand than a metro team that has the talent to play A but chooses to play B instead (see Tartan, Champlin Park, Chisago Lakes to name a few).

I don't begrudge the players one bit, weather it is Tartan, Chisago Lakes, Northern Lakes, Champlin Park, etc, they do work hard, they are a very talented group of players; however maybe you can answer, why play B hockey this year when you had the talent to play A? Is it because you didn't want to be a .500 A club and not make your regional/state run? Tartan is not battle tested IMO, yes they beat Edina Green and one of the Wayzata teams; however beating up on the your oponents to the tune of 232 goals for and giving up only 17 goals all year, their record of 33-0-1, playing in tournaments in Baldwin WI, New Richmond or Breezy Point doesnt seem battle tested to me, yes the Wayzata Tournament was your only competition all year. I would think you know you are in the wrong level of play. Yes everybody is ripping into Tartan, this year. Last year it was Mahtomedi having 2 B teams and they heard it plenty, I'm sure next year it'll be someone else. There is no way you can tell me that those players woudn't enjoy playing against some stiffer competition? How did their goalie develope this year facing on average 10 shots per game? I'm sure they had some games where she may have only seen 3 or 4 shots per game?

Good luck to everyone in Regions, inlcuding Tartan, even thou I and everyone at Tartan knows they are in the wrong level of play, it'll only hurt, or shall I say continue to hurt their program in the long run....

magelk
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Post by magelk » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:56 pm

drop the puck wrote:


What is Champlin Park doing playing B hockey without an A team.
Go read the Blaine thread. That explains it.

panpan111
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12UB

Post by panpan111 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:44 pm

This is the annual argument....There is a big difference betwwen "A" hockey and "B" hockey. Tartan, St. Francis, & Champlin Park did the right thing playing "B". They are the best and that is fine. Ask Mahtomedi how "A" hockey went this year. If they played "B" hockey they would dominate as well. In "A" they struggled. It is a different game and success at any level is better than humiliation. Those three teams are at the right level based on their talent. Give some credit to the kids and the coaching staff. They have done a great job this year...congrats!

MinnGirlsHockey
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Re: 12UB

Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:15 pm

mn hockey dad 66 wrote:Hockey121330 there are no 8th graders on the Tartan team.
That is true, but I believe they have at least five 7th graders (and a few 6th graders) who could easily thrive playing 12UA. Tartan had a good group of players who played on a very successful 10UA co-op team with North St. Paul two years ago. These 7th graders really didn't need a 2nd year playing 12UB.
panpan111 wrote:This is the annual argument....There is a big difference betwwen "A" hockey and "B" hockey.
I agree with you on this point.
panpan111 wrote:Tartan, St. Francis, & Champlin Park did the right thing playing "B".
panpan111 wrote:Those three teams are at the right level based on their talent.
I don't know much about the situation at St. Francis and Champlin Park, but I disagree regarding Tartan. (See my first comment above.) I know the A/B decision isn't always easy for smaller associations (which is why I'm generally a supporter of co-op's to keep kids playing at the appropriate level), but I think it's now obvious to most that Tartan made a mistake this year playing 12UB (they are undefeated and their AVERAGE margin of victory is over 6 goals per game). They made the right decision to play B at 14U, but the wrong decision was made to play B at 12U. It's great that they had the numbers this year to have both an A and B team at 10U. But I hope they aren't blinded by all the accolades and trophies their 12UB team is now receiving and hope they decide to play 12UA next year (if they'll have only one 12U team again) since they should have a good group of 6th graders coming back next year as 7th graders.
panpan111 wrote:Ask Mahtomedi how "A" hockey went this year. If they played "B" hockey they would dominate as well. In "A" they struggled.
Yes, based on win-loss record, Mahtomedi struggled at 12UA this year but it will only help those girls in the long run. They were competitive in the majority of their games and lost six 1-goal games in league play. They even beat a team which is now moving onto Regions. No, I don't think they won any trophies, but that shouldn't be what playing youth sports is all about. Same is true for North St. Paul. Both associations probably had a better justification than Tartan to play 12UB this year, but chose instead to challenge their girls and forgo the trips to Regions and State in the short-term for more development and longer term success.
panpan111 wrote:It is a different game and success at any level is better than humiliation.
I guess it all depends upon how you define success (how many trophies you win vs. true development) and how you define humilitation. I don't think you can say that Mahtomedi and North St. Paul were humiliated this year playing 12UA. Sure, they each had a small handful of games where they were on the wrong end of a lopsided score. But I know Mahtomedi had far more close losses (1-3 goals) than lopsided losses (4+ goals), and I believe that the majority of those girls have developed more this year as a result of playing 12UA. IMHO had Tartan played 12UA this year, they certainly wouldn't have been humiliated and would've likely finished somewhere in the middle of 12UA League 2, at worst.

D6 Girls Fan
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Post by D6 Girls Fan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:23 am

The answer for many of these girls are co-op teams. I'm sure the Tartan girls will all be happy with their 12B medals, but what happens when they hit high school? "A" players should play "A". All that comes of "A" players playing "B" is that they eventually become "B" players. And what do you prove by winning?

And heres' where you admire Edina, Wayzata and Eden Prairie. They could easily put together a "Super" B team and dominate the B level, even with teams like Tartan and St. Francis, but instead Wayzata and Edina run three equal 12B teams, all of which are pretty good. Imagine an Edina B1 team, the only games they'd lose would be to a Wayzata or EP B1 team.

There really needs to be a third level in Girls Hockey, for the smaller associations' A teams so they don't get killed in A, or dominate B. Then let the big associations develop their second 15. The sooner the better.

ZephyrDad
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Post by ZephyrDad » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:16 am

The Mahtomedi 12A team was the first ever girl's A team in that city. The team was comprised of 14 players (not 10 + goalie). Half were 7th graders, with the balance being 6th graders and 10U eligible 5th graders. Compare this roster with those of most other associations we played.

The team earned 3rd place in one tournament. These girls certainly improved their individual skills, while learning to play as a TEAM against some very high caliber competition. Most girls on this team did appear to have a fun season.

The season ended with a 4-3 OT loss to eventual Region qualifier Armstrong. The loss occurred after the refs put Armstrong on a 5 on 3 OT powerplay :roll: The zephs had beaten this team just a couple weeks before in league play.

From a parents perspective:
Minnesota 12A hockey is a fast, tenacious and often a much more physical game then people give it credit for.

I was impressed with the caliber of play we faced in both league and tournament play. The state of Minnesota has many talented young female skaters, top notch scorers, and well coached teams.

There is simply no comparison between "A" and "B" level of play .... Beyond simply talent, the higher level of defensive skill and the ability of the forwards to aggressively back-check are two noticeable points.

In the end, most of these girls already had a trophy case full of "B" level tournament wins from previous years. In 3 - 5 years these same girls will face Tartan in the Classic Suburban Conference. Maybe we will see then if the decision to play "A" hockey made a real difference or if playing down and winning was the better decision. :?:
Last edited by ZephyrDad on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

ZephyrDad
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Re: 12UB

Post by ZephyrDad » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:22 am

MinnGirlsHockey wrote: IMHO had Tartan played 12UA this year, they certainly wouldn't have been humiliated and would've likely finished somewhere in the middle of 12UA League 2, at worst.
Zephyrs would have finished above them. :wink: Would have been fun to see the two teams play, but Minnesota Hockey would not even allow a scrimmage.

That said this league is sending two middle of the pack teams into Regions. Mpls Park and Armstrong-Cooper both played in knock-out games yet managed to beat teams with much better league records when a loss meant the season ended.

hardwaterfan
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Post by hardwaterfan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:22 pm

I'll chime in as a voice from the North. We (Duluth) played Pequot (Northern Lakes) and was handed a pretty good thumping due to one very impressive player. They are a very good B team, and without their star, would be a good B team. They have a untested goalie that doesn't see many shots. They will be representing Olympic in my opinion, as a worthy entrant in 12UBs. As far as the other Olympic rep, you can't discount Hibbing, the two Cloquet teams or our scrappy girls who have gone through a lot of hurdles, including losing one of our star defenders. We've faced the Edina's, the OMG's, etc. and have won our fair share and lost a couple of close ones. In my humble opinion, the competion state wide is fairly even. It depends on who shows up. I also believe that given the right frame of mind, our team can beat a Pequot or Tartan, just like anyone else in this tournament. It will be a challenge for our young team, but isn't that the beauty of it? To make it in State, you need a good game from your whole team, over and over. Remember what happened last year- little old Proctor showed up and delivered some good beat downs, as well as pulling out the close one to win it all. I always think its kind of funny when the North is overlooked. We play hard and rough, and rarely do we quit. We're ready- are you?

drop the puck
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Post by drop the puck » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:51 pm

Remember the girls in these smaller Associations usually have little choice.

They simply play where they are told to play at the level their Associaition Directors place them in their respective District.

Occasionally you have parents pull their child out and send them off to another Association. These kids lose the opportunity to play with friends and classmates. Commutes to practices and games can be long. Worse yet, those kids can become the pawns of hockey board politics and forum antics ... aka the Blaine thang.

mnhcp
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Post by mnhcp » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:55 pm

drop the puck wrote:These kids lose the opportunity to play with friends and classmates.
What about the opportunity to make new friends? It's not always an opportunity to play with friends and classmates.

U12B Dad
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Post by U12B Dad » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:51 am

LPH rankings out.

7 of the 8 teams in the American Region are ranked in the top 10.

Wow!

D10RoXyourSoX
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Post by D10RoXyourSoX » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:04 pm

Some of you have a good perspective on the 12A & B play and for the majority of you....you need to take some sort of sedative and relax and understand that it is B Hockey and your daughters, I HOPE, are having fun and ignoring your quality coaching skills in the car.

Some 12B team could "compete" with other 12A teams that made the decision to play up because they are truly a "B" team. Look at D10 for example; Princeton not in any way shape or form are a 12A team. The PYHA board is what made the decision to play A and not listening to the advocating parent group to play 12B. BOARDS THINK TOO MUCH!! They think playing better means the players will get better. If you think playing hockey "hot potato" style is developing, then keep making those decisions. Tartan playing at the B level is a great decision for that team! More quality ice time through puck possession, GREAT CONCEPT!

There are many, many 12A teams that have no business playing A. Look at last years 12B power house undefeated or one loss team, Centennial. Ended up losing in the Championship at State. Not everyone is invincible. That team would have been okay at 12A last year, but the difference for them if they played at the A level, they did not have the scorers. You would find that with Tartan too. Play with bigger, faster, better skills, better hockey knowledge, better hockey understanding, better coaching, complete team of committed parents and players buying in to practicing 5-6 nights a week. Does not happen like that at the B level, to many players that "just want to have fun and hang out with my friends". How many times have your heard a parent and player say that at the B level and compare it to the A level when asked.

All the "top 10" LPH ranked teams in the B level could not compete well with the "top 10" from the A level.

As far as Even Teams for multiple teams at one level, EP, Wayzata and Edina do equal teams according to a previous poster, but think about why. Larger parent group.......Larger population..... more ideas......... numbers always prevail. Their way is good, history may show that they may have a good idea going as we look at the rankings in LPH and see those names repeatedly in the top ten at almost every level. But consider why...consider your parent group and board and ask yourself, "can I help make it better" if you think you can, then propose well thought out changes and present the idea/plan with support from a good number of parents and make informed, well thought out decisions that affect not only the current athletes but future athletes as well.

___________

GO BLUE!

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:56 pm

D10RoXyourSoX wrote: All the "top 10" LPH ranked teams in the B level could not compete well with the "top 10" from the A level.
___________
D10roXsoX, good post for the most part but your comment above is ridiculous! Who in this thread was saying that any top 10 B team would compete with a top 10 A team?! Oh no, Tartan or Chisago Lakes won't be a top 10 ranked team so we had better not play A? Anybody in their right mind would not say that nor has anyone on this thread said that. What I've read is that these teams in question could compete fairly well in the District. Sure they maybe couldn't go end-to-end with the puck like some of these players can and do at the B level if they were playing A, well guess what, if these girls want to play HS they won't be able to do that either, I can say even at the 14A level, it's not that easy. My daughter wants to be challenged even at the B level, don't lump all 12B players into a general comment that they are only playing for the 'social' piece of it.

Most Associations that don’t have enough players to field 2 teams that choose to play 12B are probably in the right level; however you do end up with year after year those teams that could easily have played 12A, each year is different for each association and as long as those Associations are looking at the right things when deciding what level that is all we can hope for. For example; how many returning players at that level? How did our 10’s do last year, how many of them are moving up? Who has played A before? Maybe a few of those players played in the Super Series, Selects or Elite (see Tartan once again)? What are the ages in this group? How many 12 year olds vs. 11 year olds? Age, size, any new skaters…all that should be taken into account, I would hope.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:14 pm

D10RoXyourSoX wrote:If you think playing hockey "hot potato" style is developing, then keep making those decisions. Tartan playing at the B level is a great decision for that team!
I still disagree, per my earlier post, and I know there is a big difference between 12UA and 12UB. But I truly don't think Tartan would be playing "hot potato hockey" had they opted to play 12UA this year, certainly not against most League 2 teams.
D10RoXyourSoX wrote:More quality ice time through puck possession, GREAT CONCEPT!
I can see your point about puck possession, but only to some extent - it can certainly be great for developing stickhandling, passing, shooting, etc. - however, there will eventually come a time for many of these top-end B girls to play high school and that's when they're rarely going to possess the puck because they haven't been taught as much forechecking or backchecking, angles, etc. (more difficult skills to teach and master in my opinion). Those stickhandling, passing, & shooting skills aren't worth much if you haven't learned enough about how to gain possession of the puck in the first place. Also, stickhandling and shooting can be developed significantly during the off-season with individual off-ice work, I would argue that those skills don't need to be developed as much during game situations. Just my 2-cents' worth anyway.

D10RoXyourSoX
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Post by D10RoXyourSoX » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:12 pm

Hockey 12 - Did imply or state that any 10A or 10B could compete. I said 12A and 12B. I simply said top 12B teams cannot compete with the top 12A. I will give you case in point.. Edina. Edina 12A would beat their top 12B team which looks like 12B Black handly. Another point, Eden Prairie. The EP 12A would also handle the EP 12B team. That is the standard for top teams in the 12A division, now use that example and tell me how your team would compete against those very competitive programs at the 12A level. I will throw in Roseau 12A as well and I think The Tartan Club would get run over easily again. Thank you for listening to my retort.

Now for MinnGirls - I made no mention of District 2 12A, maybe Tartan would compete in District 2 12A. However they are not in District 2 12A they are in 12B. So your assertion is made by bias to your favor for the club which is fine. But seriously, be realistic, and read what I wrote above and think to yourself beyond District 2 12B and 12A and compare them to the Top 10 in LPH for the 12A. They would lose IMHO, 10 out of 10 against the top 10 in LPH. But we will never know will we, we can only assume. Regarding angles and position.... you need to have the other skills along with skating to be able to perform those hockey skills. It takes the entire skill set at the 12A level. You cannot just choose what skills you would like to do and expect to compete at the 12A level.

B hockey is good hockey. B hockey is where the major percentage of girls and there skills are in the State of MN. Dont be ashamed, but be realistic on skills. The 15th skater on and A team could arguably do more for herself by being on a B team. More quality puck time to be able to effectively play hockey at their respective level. To many parents want the AAA or as you say Super Series, Elite, Selects label that they lose sight on what really matters. Quality ice time, good coaching, 100 + ice hours each season, good parent group, good board and deep pockets when you cant get those things in your own association and you take it to the summer time Einstiens(sp).

___________

Go Blue!

drop the puck
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Post by drop the puck » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:44 am

Not the first to bring this up, but maybe there should to be 3 divisions in Girl's Youth Hockey.

There were 61 12A teams in Minnesota this season. Do not have the number in front of me, but I suspect there must be another 50 - 70 B teams.

You allow A1 and A2 teams to scrimmage and you allow A2 teams to enter A1 tournaments if they so chose.


A1 - Large associations top level team here

A2 - Small associations top team and Large associations 2nd team fit in here. While some associates split B teams evenly there are plenty that do not. With this classification, associations could split B teams by ability and not have to put them in the same league. Most out state teams fit here.

B - smaller associations 2nd team and large associations 3rd team. True B teams only.


Allow girl's new to hockey to cross districts and play on the true B teams if they so chose.

Each association has the ability to place teams where they want them.

Districts are often combining to improve or increase the number of teams playing in a league. This can continue to ensure that leagues have enouth teams to make in interesting.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:08 pm

D10RoXyourSoX wrote:Now for MinnGirls - I made no mention of District 2 12A, maybe Tartan would compete in District 2 12A. However they are not in District 2 12A they are in 12B. So your assertion is made by bias to your favor for the club which is fine. But seriously, be realistic, and read what I wrote above and think to yourself beyond District 2 12B and 12A and compare them to the Top 10 in LPH for the 12A. They would lose IMHO, 10 out of 10 against the top 10 in LPH. But we will never know will we, we can only assume. Regarding angles and position.... you need to have the other skills along with skating to be able to perform those hockey skills. It takes the entire skill set at the 12A level. You cannot just choose what skills you would like to do and expect to compete at the 12A level.
I know that you made no mention of D2 12A, all I said - in response to your comment that Tartan made the right decision to play 12B - is that I've watched plenty of League 2 12A (consisting of D1, D2, & Armstrong-Cooper) this year and it's my opinion that Tartan would do just fine in that league. Although I would say that League 2 is not nearly as competitive as it was last year when all of D3 was in the league. I'm confused by the "bias" comment though, I live in D2 but not from Tartan nor do I think my comments on this board have been pro-Tartan (in fact, some have been just the opposite). I agree that Tartan would easily lose to any top 10 12A team - probably at least any top 30 12A team - however, I don't think I ever said anything to the contrary. Regarding the skills, yes - it's ideal to have "the entire skill set", again all I'm saying is that Tartan had enough girls with enough skills to compete well at 12A.
D10RoXyourSoX wrote:B hockey is good hockey. B hockey is where the major percentage of girls and there skills are in the State of MN. Dont be ashamed, but be realistic on skills. The 15th skater on and A team could arguably do more for herself by being on a B team. More quality puck time to be able to effectively play hockey at their respective level. To many parents want the AAA or as you say Super Series, Elite, Selects label that they lose sight on what really matters. Quality ice time, good coaching, 100 + ice hours each season, good parent group, good board and deep pockets when you cant get those things in your own association and you take it to the summer time Einstiens(sp).
Not sure if this paragraph was in response to what I stated earlier? I didn't say anything about Super Series, Elite, Selects, etc. I agree with pretty much everything you've stated here (except the 100+ ice hours each season, we don't get anywhere close to that).

I do like the approach mentioned by dtp above.

magelk
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Post by magelk » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:16 pm

drop the puck wrote:Not the first to bring this up, but maybe there should to be 3 divisions in Girl's Youth Hockey.

There were 61 12A teams in Minnesota this season. Do not have the number in front of me, but I suspect there must be another 50 - 70 B teams.

You allow A1 and A2 teams to scrimmage and you allow A2 teams to enter A1 tournaments if they so chose.


A1 - Large associations top level team here

A2 - Small associations top team and Large associations 2nd team fit in here. While some associates split B teams evenly there are plenty that do not. With this classification, associations could split B teams by ability and not have to put them in the same league. Most out state teams fit here.

B - smaller associations 2nd team and large associations 3rd team. True B teams only.


Allow girl's new to hockey to cross districts and play on the true B teams if they so chose.

Each association has the ability to place teams where they want them.

Districts are often combining to improve or increase the number of teams playing in a league. This can continue to ensure that leagues have enouth teams to make in interesting.

Thats an interesting idea.

greybeard58
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Post by greybeard58 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:36 am

Anyone have the score on the last game in Waseca?

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