U12B American Region Tournament

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

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panpan111
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Tartan playing U12B

Post by panpan111 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:46 am

Any questions on Tartan now? Ask them what they thought about teams outside of D2! They had their hands full this weekend! They only team they "destoyed" was St. Francis who's goalie needs a little work. Everybody else gave them all they could handle. They are a very nice team that is playing at the right level!

hs hockey fan
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Post by hs hockey fan » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:38 am

does anybody have the olympic region scores for sunday?? I'm assuming that Northern Lakes won and was wondering between Hibbing and Cloquet Purple??

hs hockey fan
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Re: Tartan playing U12B

Post by hs hockey fan » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:40 am

panpan111 wrote:Any questions on Tartan now? Ask them what they thought about teams outside of D2! They had their hands full this weekend! They only team they "destoyed" was St. Francis who's goalie needs a little work. Everybody else gave them all they could handle. They are a very nice team that is playing at the right level!
Yes they had to be on their game and all of then teams they played were good and it was a great tourney for all teams good luck to Chisago lakes Champlin PArk and Tartan and all the other teams in State

hardwaterfan
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Post by hardwaterfan » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:52 am

Hibbing advanced after a one goal game with Cloquet Purple. Pequot did advance, but barely. They won with 45 seconds left against a scrappy IFalls team. As the earlier posting stated, competition was very close with the exception of one team. Several exciting OT's, some 1 goal games and some whoodathunks. Again, everyone playing at their level. Good luck to Hibbing and Pequot representing the Tundra...

D10RoXyourSoX
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Post by D10RoXyourSoX » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:43 pm

PANs - you make a clear observation and now Hockey121330 should be humbled by the words of many and just be happy that Tartan plays at the B level. They are a B team and this past weekend is obvious that the association made the right decision.

Good luck to all the 12B state tournament teams, may your dressers/desks/bulletin boards be filled with hardware from your State Tournament play.

_______________

Go Blue!

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:23 pm

D10RoXyourSoX wrote:PANs - you make a clear observation and now Hockey121330 should be humbled by the words of many and just be happy that Tartan plays at the B level. They are a B team and this past weekend is obvious that the association made the right decision.

Good luck to all the 12B state tournament teams, may your dressers/desks/bulletin boards be filled with hardware from your State Tournament play.

_______________

Go Blue!
Whatever makes you feel better to justify that your squad should play B hockey, go for it, knock your SoX off! I'm sure Panpan and other proud parents and or coaches are just plain tired off getting questioned everywhere they go as to why they didn't play A. I will say this again, any teams from these districts (D1, D2, D3, D6, D8 and D10) that chooses to not play A hockey at the 12 level should not be rolling through their district as stated above. Yes D2 it appears was a very weak district this year at the B level; however at least the teams that are in there are true B teams.

Here's the theme of Girls B hockey; if you don't have an A team, you have a pretty good chance to make it through to Regions, if you do have an A team and you are in the B Regions, good luck playing against other hybrid A/B teams, chances are you will not make it out of regions. 2 of the 8 teams that made it to state have A teams in their Association (Eden Praire and Woodbury), the other 2 teams are from the North (probably Pequote Lakes and ?) - expect that out of those Northern Teams, then the other 4 (Tartan-D2, Chisago Lakes-D10, Red Wing-D8 and Champlin Park-D10) those associations choose to play B hockey instead of A and now they got what they wanted, a chance to play in a State Tournament.

My guess on this whole Tartan topic is that last year their TNT (Tartan / North St. Paul) co-op went onto the B Regions, they lost and they saw that alot of those teams were really good B teams that didn't have A teams so they figued, what the heck, everyone else is doing it, why not us? We have some very good players returning, lets play at B and load up on our trophies for our Dressers, Desks and bulletin boards and show everyone how great we really are here at Tartan. So they play 12UB.

3 years from now where will Tartan's HS Girls Hockey team be, same as today, win a couple of games, maybe play the outstate teams in a tournament here and there, then get blown out in AA playoffs. I wonder why one of Tartan's better youth players growing up, I'll only use her initials here (PJ), goes and plays at Roseville vs. staying at Tartan? Now maybe I don't know the whole story here but is it because she maybe wanted to compete and play for a High School that actually competes and just maybe she'll become a better player out of it? How many more girls on the B team would've liked to play A to maybe better themselves?

Keep saying they played at the right level, the more you say it the more you'll believe it.

It will be very interesting to see when Tartan hangs their State Tournament banner at Tartan Arena if they actually say 12UB or will they just say 12U? I'm betting they leave the 'B' off of the banner.

Well, I'm pretty much done bashing Tartan here for the year, like I said, next year it'll be someone different because Tartan will be tired of being questioned everywhere they go and will end up with a 12A and 12B team, who knows maybe even Chisago Lakes will end up playing 12A someday? Nah, they like the attention too much as well.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:39 pm

I'm glad to see that Tartan faced some good competition (finally) last weekend. I wasn't at the Regional but maybe I did overestimate their abilities to some extent. I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I still like the three-classification idea for girls hockey in MN which has been mentioned previously. However, I doubt that will happen anytime soon. It just doesn't seem right to me that a B team (with no A team in its association) has to wait until Regions & State before they finally have some close games. I guess part of that is on them, they probably should've sought out more competitive tournaments (especially avoiding the Wisc. tourneys) and more competitive scrimmages based on the low caliber of League 2, which was obviously down this year.

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:40 pm

..........
Last edited by hockey121330 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:05 pm

hockey121330 wrote:My guess on this whole Tartan topic is that last year their TNT (Tartan / North St. Paul) co-op went onto the B Regions, they lost and they saw that alot of those teams were really good B teams that didn't have A teams so they figued, what the heck, everyone else is doing it, why not us? We have some very good players returning, lets play at B and load up on our trophies for our Dressers, Desks and bulletin boards and show everyone how great we really are here at Tartan. So they play 12UB.
You may be on the right track, but I think you're referring to 2 years ago (not last year). They did go back to 12UB Regions last year as Tartan only (the TNT co-op dissolved after 2007-08 ) and I believe they just missed going to State.
hockey121330 wrote:It will be very interesting to see when Tartan hangs their State Tournament banner at Tartan Arena if they actually say 12UB or will they just say 12U? I'm betting they leave the 'B' off of the banner.
Based on how their association home page looks today, I'd go with the latter or "U12".

oldhockeyguy
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Teams that choose U12B play vs. A Play

Post by oldhockeyguy » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:01 am

Many great points on the subject. It's a tough subject....but Let's not forget that many of the stronger U12B teams only have 10 - 15 kids playing hockey at the 12 level....total. Tartan, Red Wing, St. Francis, Chisago are examples.

I have watched all these teams play and they have some A kids, some B kids and some C kids (if there was a C level). Just because you have a couple A players does not dictate you should play A hockey. Edina, Wayzata, Eden Prairie have 15 legitimate A players on their A team....not just a couple! You have to consider what's best for all the kids on the team. What will best develop all the kids. Sometimes it's the price a program pays just for not having the numbers.....and choosing B is best overall for player development. What is a C calibur player (2nd year skaters) going to learn playing A hockey? How is a kid going to buy into a coaching system, I mean really buy into the system, if they cannot execute it in a game because they simply cannot compete at all with A players.

Many of you take shots at some of these teams because they are having great success at the B level. Look at the whole picture vs a couple kids on these team who can compete at the A level. If you watched some U12B region games over the weekend, they were all competitive and it's clear these teams are playing at the right level.

oldhockeyguy
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Throw a game?

Post by oldhockeyguy » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:09 am

Pequot is in the upper bracket with Tartan. You should be giving credit to Champlain Park instead. Nice team....great goal tending.

panpan111
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Post by panpan111 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:10 am

Hey 1233313123 or whatever, does it really matter what the banner says? If they win I could care less what they put on the banner, just as long as it's not 12UA. Have you ever been to a Tartan game? It is an association that supports their teams and kids, regardless of the level the play. Good luck Tartan! Bring home the Hardware......and make sure you hang that Banner!

hockey121330
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Post by hockey121330 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:27 am

panpan111 wrote:Hey 1233313123 or whatever
Did I hit a nerve? :lol: Now attacking my moniker? I’ll think of a cleverer moniker next time for you Panpan.
Pequot is in the upper bracket with Tartan. You should be giving credit to Champlain Park instead. Nice team....great goal tending.
Conspiracy theory shot! Sorry about that, I figured N Lakes would be the #1 Olympic Seed, didn’t notice that on their Regional Bracket. I take it all back!
You are correct, I give Champlin Park and its outstanding goalie a lot of credit. CP has great goaltending and she moves well and is very good. They are a deep team with 3 pretty much equal lines and they roll their lines without shortening their bench from what I’ve heard and seen. Very nice team indeed and congratulations to them and good luck at State.
...but Let's not forget that many of the stronger U12B teams only have 10 - 15 kids playing hockey at the 12 level....total. Tartan, Red Wing, St. Francis, Chisago are examples.

I have watched all these teams play and they have some A kids, some B kids and some C kids (if there was a C level). Just because you have a couple A players does not dictate you should play A hockey. Edina, Wayzata, Eden Prairie have 15 legitimate A players on their A team....not just a couple! You have to consider what's best for all the kids on the team. What will best develop all the kids. Sometimes it's the price a program pays just for not having the numbers.....and choosing B is best overall for player development. What is a C calibur player (2nd year skaters) going to learn playing A hockey? How is a kid going to buy into a coaching system, I mean really buy into the system, if they cannot execute it in a game because they simply cannot compete at all with A players.
Agree with your take and I've said that before that the whole team needs to be looked at and I 100% agree wtih Red Wing, St. Francis but if your team has over 75% A calibar players on it, then you're going to play B hockey for the 25% and have others play down? Like Tartan.
You may be on the right track, but I think you're referring to 2 years ago (not last year). They did go back to 12UB Regions last year as Tartan only (the TNT co-op dissolved after 2007-08 ) and I believe they just missed going to State.
I stand corrected again, BUT doesn't this add to my point that if they were 1 game away from 12B state last year, that means they had some pretty decent players returning from last years team AND they had some strong 10A players that moved up, that they are more of a 12A team than a 12B team? It's just one persons opinion here and I've been through it before where I'd rather see a team play up and work harder than have a team roll through their game schedule and play catch up later when they are playing 14A or High School.

D10RoXyourSoX
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Post by D10RoXyourSoX » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:14 am

Settle down Hockey-Twelve-Thirteen-Thirty

You have not given any substance to your posts. Just Area 51 insights and analysis that is as believable as the sightings you have witnessed.

Your retorts are fodder for the few that want to read uneducated hypotheses. Please embrace the contestants and be happy for the entire group. I hope to see you at the Banner ceremony, whichever association it is.

My prediction is Red Wing or Chisago. I picked Chisago purely because 301312 has animosity towards them as well. :wink:

_____________

GO BLUE!

blondegirlsdad
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Post by blondegirlsdad » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:41 am

>Here's the theme of Girls B hockey; if you don't have an A team, you have a pretty good chance to make it through to Regions, if you do have an A team and you are in the B Regions, good luck playing against other hybrid A/B teams, chances are you will not make it out of regions. 2 of the 8 teams that made it to state have A teams in their Association (Eden Praire and Woodbury)

...and could you imagine how good Woodbury or Eden Prairie or Edina or Wayzata would be if the associations decided they wanted to WIN at the 12B level? You think Tartan is stacked? Try players 15-30 in one of those associations.

Which is why there needs to be a 3rd class somewhere between A & B. True A games would be more competetive (better development for players 1-15), B1 (or A2, whatever) games would be more competetive (better development for smaller associations top players and larger associations 2nd tier), and B2 games would be less frustrating for the less experienced girls. Nobody learns anything from 7-1 games. After this year, it won't matter to our family, but Minnesota Hockey really needs to get serious about developing all the kids, not just the A's.

As for the State tourney, having seen a few of these teams up close, I kind of like Champlin Park. Our squad had many many shots on that goalie and she completely shut our girls down. We haven't seen Pequot, but the word is they're solid, perhaps not as battle tested. I will also submit dark horse Red Wing, who has one of the better players at B I saw all year. If they don't get tired, look out. Woodbury Blue is well-coached, strong on defense and rarely breaks down. (Both Woodbury teams were excellent).

hockey121330
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North Metro Goalie

Post by hockey121330 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:53 pm

On the topic of Goaltenders, I saw last weekend the North Metro goalie, all I can say there is outstanding! I'm not sure what North Metro has for Goalies at the next level including JV/HS, but she's the real deal. Good size, stays very calm in nets, gives up nearly nothing for rebounds and can pretty much shut down the the other teams single-handedly. Looks like the most goals she gave up all year in a single game was once she gave up 4 to Pequot (Northern Lakes) otherwise alot of 1 or 2 goals and that was it. Kudos to her and her development as a goaltender! A couple of very good goaltenders between Champlin Park and North Metro!

luckyEPDad
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Post by luckyEPDad » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:17 pm

hockey121330 wrote:I'm only observing here so don't get your undies in a bunch here Tartan fans. Did anyone see the Champlin Park vs. Tartan game on Sunday morning, CP won 2-0. Is it possible that Tartan 'threw' this game in order to stay out of the lower bracket and not have to play the Woodbury Blue or Pequot (Northern) Lakes or EP Black teams and instead be in the upper bracket wtih Chisago Lakes, Red Wing and Hibbing? Just an observation and don't think for a second that a organized coach doesn't look at this ahead of time. But with that said I don't know how you would 'throw' a game with a bunch of 11-13 year olds, right?
Yeah, and the Eden Prairie A team threw their division championship game against Edina to get a better seeding at state.

I don't know about you, but I've yet to meet a youth hockey player that would agree to throw a game. You should be ashamed of yourself for mentioning it.

Tartan had a very good B team last year that nearly went to state. I vividly remember a Tartan mom giving our girls (EP) cookies after we beat them for the last state berth. The Tartan girls were too distressed to eat. It is that kind of passion, and some good coaching, that makes a great team. Go spout your Machiavellian plots somewhere else.

magelk
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Post by magelk » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:06 pm

I'll say one thing on this whole A vs B thing. I had 6 girls from one of these teams on my AAA team last summer. All 6 did very well. The 2 best forwards waived out to play A and the other 4 were not allowed any option but stay and play B. (The girls director said she wanted to go to state) After watching their last couple games, the 4 that were stuck have regressed to slow motion hockey and have not gained anything at all. The 2 that played A are so far beyond the other 4 that it really truly makes me sad. But the absolute worst of it all is that if the 2 stayed and this association had played A, it would have been a disaster because the coach cannot coach worth a damn. So, 2 bail and they "sandbag" it and say rah rah rah, but at the end of the day, they screwed 4 girls by not searching out a better solution.

And yes, I'm a big fan of merging small associations at levels that need it.

D10RoXyourSoX
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Post by D10RoXyourSoX » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:13 pm

HMMMMM Chisago over Tartan in Semis 4-2 of the State Tournament. I guess that A team idea from the eager parent group of Tartan love was a little off base. Losing to Chisago in Semis now has you playing for 3rd and possibly ending up 4th.

It was a nice run! Congrats Tartan for giving it your all, you were playing with the right talent pool all year long. :roll:

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drop the puck
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Post by drop the puck » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:52 pm

Absolutely. NOT.

Chisago and Champlin Park should have played 12A hockey too!!

The whole 12B tournament is ..........

In five years we will see if it made a difference for Chisago, Tartan, and Champlin to play down.

magelk
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Post by magelk » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:03 pm

drop the puck wrote:Absolutely. NOT.

Chisago and Champlin Park should have played 12A hockey too!!

The whole 12B tournament is ..........

In five years we will see if it made a difference for Chisago, Tartan, and Champlin to play down.
We already saw it. Chisago High School girls were in the state tournament. They were carried by girls who played in the boys and triple A in the summer. The girls who played on the 12b the 2 years they went to state a few years back are all stand around do nothing players.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:05 am

D10RoXyourSoX wrote:HMMMMM Chisago over Tartan in Semis 4-2 of the State Tournament. I guess that A team idea from the eager parent group of Tartan love was a little off base. Losing to Chisago in Semis now has you playing for 3rd and possibly ending up 4th.

It was a nice run! Congrats Tartan for giving it your all, you were playing with the right talent pool all year long. :roll:
I believe it was 3-2 (Chisago Lakes over Tartan in the semi's), but I'll let somebody from your "eager parent group" confirm this (sorry, again I'm not a Tartan guy).

So with your logic, I guess if you finish the season 39-2-1 (with your only losses to the teams which finished 1st & 2nd Place in State -- of which, both associations also opted to not field 'A' teams), outscore your opponents by an average of 6 goals per game throughout the regular season, don't have a loss until Regions, and take 3rd in State, then it must mean that you couldn't have competed just fine at the next level up and it confirms that you were playing at the right level all season.

Come on, get real...come back to reality.

MinnGirlsHockey
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Post by MinnGirlsHockey » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:20 am

magelk wrote:
drop the puck wrote:Absolutely. NOT.

Chisago and Champlin Park should have played 12A hockey too!!

The whole 12B tournament is ..........

In five years we will see if it made a difference for Chisago, Tartan, and Champlin to play down.
We already saw it. Chisago High School girls were in the state tournament. They were carried by girls who played in the boys and triple A in the summer. The girls who played on the 12b the 2 years they went to state a few years back are all stand around do nothing players.
Yea, and this was that great Chisago H.S. team which was 9-13-3 entering Sections. :lol:

fun&games
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Post by fun&games » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:35 am

I don't mean to be disrespectful to any players, but wouldn't this whole discussion about playing A or B be avoided if there were no state tournament for B teams. If the purpose of the state tournament is to recognize the best teams at an age level (maybe this isn't the purpose?) then there is no need for a B state tourney. If it's about giving more players an opportunity to have a state "experience" I think it somewhat diminishes the "specialness" of making it to state. Perhaps if there were no state tournament for B teams, some of the teams that elect to play B might be motivated to play at the A level. I'm just curious about what people think about this...I don't really have a strong opinion about it, and I'm sure I've missed some important points about why there is a B tournament.

Hockeydaddy
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Post by Hockeydaddy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:56 am

So what do you do about the kids from big associations who aren't chosen for their A squad? Because little Suzie doesn't get along with the A coach's kid she gets banished to the B team, and now she has no shot to go to state? In the larger associations politics are played after the top ten kids, it's a fact. Maybe they should just not even play at all if you don't play A, is that what you're saying?

No, how about you don't get to send a team to state if you don't send an A team? That would force more rainbow situations, I would think.

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