Is Hockey Becoming To Competitive?

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, karl(east)

hockeylover17
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:22 am

Is Hockey Becoming To Competitive?

Post by hockeylover17 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:01 pm

Is it just me or is girls hockey beginning to get way to competitive? There are times where the coach shortens the bench to let the better lines win the game. It's not fair for the girls who are not as good as the rest and how are they supposed to get any better when all they do is sit on the bench? Not only that but there has been alot of girls who are getting upset after they lose a game. Also there is alot of cursing on the ice and honestly why in the world would you do it? There also has been fights that happen but that's not right. Girls hockey is supposed to be all about strategy not being physical like the guys. Does anyone else agree with me on this?
Last edited by hockeylover17 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

OntheEdge
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:43 am

Re: Is Hockey Becoming To Competitive?

Post by OntheEdge » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:25 pm

hockeylover17 wrote:Is it just me or is girls hockey beginning to get way to competitive? There are times where the coach shortens the bench to let the better lines win the game. It's not fair for the girls who are not as good as the rest and how are they supposed to get any better when all they do is sit on the bench? Not only that but there has been alot of girls who are getting upset after they lose a game. Also there is alot of cursing on the ice and honestly why in the world would you do it? There also has been fights that happen but that's not right. Girls hockey is supposed to be all about strategy not being physical like the guys. Does anyone else agree with me on this?
Yes hockey is getting more competitive because the quality of play and the players are getting better. Its a natural progression. As quality goes up it will get even more competitive and physical. As far as playing time. I don't think a coach should ever shorten the bench at the youth level. I could see it happening during the playoffs on a very limited basis (e.g. PP or PK or at the end of a close game). In College and High School bench sitting is the norm.

Getting upset when you lose. When has that been a bad thing? Girls just like boys shouldn't be satisfied with losing. Its how they handle the losing that counts. Are they determined to get better or are they just whinning and pointing fingers at someone else?

In regards to cursing, its a penalty and should be called by the refs. Fighting gets you kicked out and probably suspended.

Girls hockey is evolving. Girls are becoming better athletes and hockey players. The days of just a few elite players dominating the game are gone. Officials are permitting more and more body contact (which is distinguished from hitting to dislodge the puck, that is checking). Girls are getting bigger and stronger. I think its a good thing and I don't think it takes away from the strategy. If body contact is a problem then there are plenty other sports a girl can pursue.
Last edited by OntheEdge on Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hockeylover17
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:22 am

Post by hockeylover17 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:08 pm

I get what your saying but what i meant by them getting upset after the game is that they cry, slam their sticks at the board or ice, even pick fights with the other team because they are mad. Shortening the bench should not be allowed because that is totally unfair to all the less skilled players. They should have more levels or something for the girls who wanna be more physical and don't care if they get sat.

BlaineU14AGoalie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by BlaineU14AGoalie » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:21 pm

I agree with both of you because yes girls are getting stronger and faster but i've been in a game where some girl was crying after the game and it was just a game not a tournament or districts. I know what it does to players who get benched and i hope someday it will stop because it brings their morale down and they feel like it's worthless to keep playing on the team if they have to sit for the last 5 minutes of each game.

panpan111
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:51 pm

Post by panpan111 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:30 pm

OntheEdge flat out gets it! The physical side of the girl's game will be discussed this summer at MN Hockey & Districts statewide. The girl's game is no longer a love fest! Let it evolve!
Crying, shortening the bench, etc.......I hope you are not serious 17!
Play to develop & win! You can do both if it is done correctly! Shortening the bench is reality from 12U & up...as it is in PW hockey and up! Use it as a motivator, not an excuse!

luckyEPDad
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by luckyEPDad » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:58 pm

panpan111 wrote:OntheEdge flat out gets it! The physical side of the girl's game will be discussed this summer at MN Hockey & Districts statewide. The girl's game is no longer a love fest! Let it evolve!
Crying, shortening the bench, etc.......I hope you are not serious 17!
Play to develop & win! You can do both if it is done correctly! Shortening the bench is reality from 12U & up...as it is in PW hockey and up! Use it as a motivator, not an excuse!
At a recent game my daughter was shocked by the language directed at her. We had fun with it in the year book by pasting cartoon balloon expletives on some of the pictures of that team. I've witnessed assaults against an opponent during the post game handshake (stick handle in the gut). Slamming sticks, swearing, physical and verbal abuse have no place in hockey. That is not evolving, that is being a hooligan. Coaches who allow that kind of behavior should not be involved with youth sports.

Shortening the bench should not be a reality at any level. It is short sighted and reflects poorly on the coach. Developing your players is more important than winning. Thinking that riding the pine is a good way to motivate players is nuts. Different players require different motivation. A good coach learns what those are, and doesn't apply some blanket approach that alienates half his players.

You don't have to be a jerk to win.

panpan111
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:51 pm

Post by panpan111 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:41 pm

Hey lucky...."assaults", "stick handles to the gut", "swearing", "physical abuse"...you should call the cops! Where the heck do you play?
Drama at it's best. Do you have refs at your games? Do you really think that is what we are refering to when we talk about letting it evolve....The girls better foil up!

mnhcp
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:48 pm

Post by mnhcp » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:39 pm

On the quick subject of shortening the bench. I see no problem shortening it for those that miss practices and other behavioral issues.

hockeylover17
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:22 am

Post by hockeylover17 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:55 pm

mnhcp I totallly agree with you about making players who miss practice or who don't behave well sit on the bench, but that's not what I mean by shortening the bench

redarmydad
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:02 pm

Post by redarmydad » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:08 pm

Lucky and Lover, I hear what you are saying, but it happens on every team. Yes even the state 12UA champs. The bench gets shortened in certain situations. Top players are called upon to accomplish an assigned task. Is it fair to throw your weaker skaters out against a team that is shortening their bench? I would ask you to see the parents take a deep breath when the teams top players are on the ice. I sit and listen to parents complain and complain during a game, but when the game is won, elation takes over their complaining and they are happy once again. One minute they are screaming at the coach from the stands and the next they are shaking his hand. GET OVER IT

If you are talking about the last five minutes of a game than seriously you are talking about 1 maybe 2 shifts a kid is being sat. Really??? They feel it's WORTHLESS to play for missing a minute and a half of ice time??? Or do they feel even worse when they get in the car, and a parent starts to complain about the minute and a half they missed and make a bigger deal of it then it is???? If it is gonna happen at high school and college, what is wrong with preparing them now. Or is setting a goal and working towards that goal a bad thing?

I am sick and tired of this conversation. It is the same thing over and over, if an association is deep and has the numbers, you will see less of the shortening, but when an association is trying to compete, they get lit up because a coach makes a decision to sit some girls for a couple of shifts throughout the season. Why don't we just give everyone a ribbon and send them home, that way everyone is happy and no one has to feel like they are not good enough. Seriously, where is the competitive drive? where is the reward for the players who are truly exceptional and make a difference. They get nothing but jealousy and resentment form parents and kids. All year long you see top players get torched for their mistakes, even minuscule ones. But the player of lesser skill is celebrated for getting the puck out of the zone or blocking a pass, or for that matter, making a pass!!! You don't see cheers in the parents in the stands for the top player when they do this!! Why??? Because they expect it!! But when the top player happens to make a mistake, watch out! I am sick and tired of this no child left behind policy!!!!


No Child Left Behind in Hockey. A policy for Minnesota Hockey to adopt and implement, here we go.

1. All teams must make the state playoffs, and all will win the championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable.

2. All kids will be expected to have the same hockey skills at the same time and in the same conditions. No exceptions will be made for interest in hockey, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities.

3. ALL KIDS WILL PLAY HOCKEY AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL.

4. Talented players will be asked to work out on their own without instruction. This is because they coaches will be using all their instructional time with the athletes who aren't interested in hockey, have limited athletic ability or whose parents don't like hockey.

5. Game will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in the 4th, 8th and 11th games.

6. This will create a New Age of sports where every association is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach the same minimal goals.

If no child gets ahead, then no child will be left behind.....

Give your kid some motivation, help them to strive to be better, help them to rise to the challenge. Give them strength to overcome!!!! Stop celebrating mediocrity and strive for something more!

Use it as motivation, that is what makes a player exceptional! The player with the ability to see a goal and do what is necessary to accomplish it. If your child is the one rolling their eyes at the coaches in practice or is more interested in hanging out with their friends, play B. Believe it or not, there are kids out there who have an amazing and profound love for the game. They are competitive and want to win. NO, it is not because they have a freak of a parent behind them pushing them. Most times, with those players, a parent has to argue with their kids to keep them OFF the ice. They are the ones listening intently in practice and working as hard as they can every single time! They are the ones that when sat or not part of the power play, understand, because it is for the benefit of the team. They are able to see when another player would be better suited to play in certain situations. Someone other than themselves and they don't complain about it.

If you are thinking that my daughter has never been sat you are wrong! She has been sat several times in her short career. It is a tool she uses to get better. I don't complain about it, I just support her. I don't blame anyone! Why? Because it does no good. You are only creating a rift between your kid and her coach, making it even more personal when the situation happens again.

There is nothing wrong with the way the girls program is heading.

This is all IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! mnhcp, I agree in using it as a discipline tool.

PG3319
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:38 pm

Post by PG3319 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:06 pm

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know that I dont spend 5-6 thousand dollars of my hard earned money to have my two girls learn how to knit sweaters or sew blankets.
GREAT TALK

BlaineU14AGoalie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by BlaineU14AGoalie » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:03 am

my question to everyone who thinks shorting the bench is ok, is that do you know what that does to the goalie? You may think we like it when our star players are out there keeping the puck out of the zone. But in reality we dont becausd when they begin to get tired they make mistakes and they rely on us goalies to do the work. I know its our job to stop pucks but its not our job to stop all of them while the team just sits around and watches the puck because their tired. I hate to get blamed for letting a goal in because my coach decided to shorten the bench and have the tired star players go out instead of the weaker players that have fresh legs. Us goalies arnt super heros and we do need all the help we can get even if its from the weaker players.

endtoend
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:52 pm

Post by endtoend » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:47 am

u14agoalie, sounds to me like you are making excuses. I would question if your weaker skaters with fresh legs could make any difference compared to your starters who are tired.

Are you saying that your team made it to state without shortening the bench? And if not, are you then saying that you could have made it to state without shortening the bench?

FIRE*ON*ICE
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 am

Post by FIRE*ON*ICE » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:28 am

17.... It's YOU! These girls WANT to be competitive. They get better by practicing!!! In the garage, shooting pucks, at the gym getting stronger, running around or rollerblading around the lake. Too competitive? I have to laugh.


redarmydad.... THANK YOU!

luckyEPDad
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by luckyEPDad » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:40 am

endtoend wrote:u14agoalie, sounds to me like you are making excuses. I would question if your weaker skaters with fresh legs could make any difference compared to your starters who are tired.

Are you saying that your team made it to state without shortening the bench? And if not, are you then saying that you could have made it to state without shortening the bench?
You are just buying into the "superstar" mentality that permeates sports. If the team has any balance at all, a fresh fit player is better than an exhausted or injured star.

Maybe the "weaker" skaters with fresh legs will not be as good or better than the tired starters. But if the coach takes time to develop those players they will be. Great teams have great balance. Not a few great players.

Is it time to put equal playing time rules in place? If coaches are too stupid to realize that the best way to win is to improve all their players, it may be time to force their hand. I was hoping that the HEP would put an end to all this nonsense.

My daughter is lucky to have had really good coaches in Eden Prairie who understand this. EP 12 A and B girls made it to state this year without shortening the bench. As this group enters high school and begins to lose players to private schools they will remain competative because they don't depend on a few key players.

sinbin
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:12 pm

Post by sinbin » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:43 am

Shortening the bench is not a reality for all teams or associations (although likely most of them, based on my observations and comments from others), even at as high a level as 14UA. It is strictly development and you win or lose with who you brought to the dance.

I would say that every girl should be given equal OPPORTUNITY to play at the youth level, but not necessarily equal playing time. If a girl misses practices, doesn't work hard, or doesn't listen to coaches, that should be grounds for less playing time. I'm relatively agnostic to shortening or not shortening the bench at the youth level if all girls are working equally hard. Of course, I must admit that I'm competitive and would like to see them win, so I suppose I would be OK with an occasional shortening if it was communicated to the parents at the beginning of the season and the vast majority bought into this philosophy, especially if your opponents are doing it on a wholesale basis.

So, the painful flip side of not shortening the bench under any circumstances (other than perhaps losing a few games you otherwise could have won if you shortened the bench in a similar fashion to your opponents) is that it sends the completely wrong message to those girls who do show up to all practices, who do bust their butts in practice, and who do listen to the coaches, regardless of their ability level. Why am I working so hard and Susie doesn't work hard and she doesn't listen to the coaches and doesn't seem to care, but we each get EXACTLY the same playing time? I don't think any 11-15 year old girl would ever understand this philosophy. To them, it's all about fairness and I still can't understand how this philosophy is fair to all girls any more than having the 3rd line consistently sit out the 3rd period of close and/or important games is fair. So, kudos to those associations who stress development over winning at the youth level, but these associations still must manage the development in a thoughtful and equitable manner. There are life lessons to be learned here as well, even more important than hockey lessons.

FIRE*ON*ICE
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 am

Post by FIRE*ON*ICE » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:47 am

Lucky... Your coaching is awesome! I agree. Are you aware of the enormous numbers they have to choose from??? That's why they don't shorten the bench. Your talent pool is huge!
Last edited by FIRE*ON*ICE on Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

luckyEPDad
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by luckyEPDad » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:00 am

FIRE*ON*ICE wrote:17.... It's YOU! These girls WANT to be competitive. They get better by practicing!!! In the garage, shooting pucks, at the gym getting stronger, running around or rollerblading around the lake. Too competitive? I have to laugh.


redarmydad.... THANK YOU!
17 picked the wrong words, but I think has the right idea. Girls are competitive. I'd much rather see them direct that competative drive towards hockey than boys or social climbing. I'm happy my daughter has something in her life that she is willing to work hard for. The determination and dedication she is learning will help her all through her life.

But there is a real problem with some coaches focusing more on winning games than on developing players. If girls are crying and acting out after losing a league game that is an indication something is wrong. A healthy team accepts losing (hates, but accepts), evaluates what went wrong and what went right, and adapts to become a better team. Slipping into a rage or a funk is not productive, and something serious players don't do.

luckyEPDad
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by luckyEPDad » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:19 am

FIRE*ON*ICE wrote:Lucky... Your coaching is awesome! I agree. Are you aware of the enormous numbers they have to choose from??? That's why they don't shorten the bench. Your talent pool is huge!
Not really. Edina and Wayzata has more girls. Centennial and Woodbury about the same. Two years ago we had just two teams at my daughters age level.

When my daughter started playing there was a fairly small core group of girls in EP that really stood out. They where head and shoulders above everyone else. A coach with those girls could decide to shorten the bench and play them all the time. Instead, the coaches played everyone the same amount and moved them all around the ice to give players a chance to play at each position. The result is that the superstars are still stellar, but the other girls are catching up fast. And every girl who's played for these coaches is an ambassador for girls hockey. For them, hockey is life.

Sinbin, I agree. Coaches should be allowed to sit a player for disciplinary reasons. A coach who treats his players fairly won't have to do that often. Happy hockey teams are self regulating. The players look forward to the next practice and shoot pucks in the driveway because its fun.
Last edited by luckyEPDad on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

BlaineU14AGoalie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by BlaineU14AGoalie » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:53 am

I'm not making excuses and the whole making it to state without shortening the bench is a private matter to speak of so if you wanna know what i have to say private message me than

GirlsHockeyIsAwesome

Post by GirlsHockeyIsAwesome » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:54 am

BlaineU14Goalie, if "shortening the bench is a private matter" why are you posting your opinion on a public site?

BlaineU14AGoalie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by BlaineU14AGoalie » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:37 pm

thats not a private matter but talking about wether my team still would of made it to state without shortening the bench is.

InigoMontoya
Posts: 1716
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by InigoMontoya » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:43 am

Someone should be responsible and tell a 14 year old girl that picked a very specific moniker that there are many folks associated with the Blaine girls program (or despise it) that would be happy to read all she can type, but that none of that would be good for the 14 year old girl - if there is actually a 14 year old girl behind the curtain.

BlaineU14AGoalie
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by BlaineU14AGoalie » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:55 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Someone should be responsible and tell a 14 year old girl that picked a very specific moniker that there are many folks associated with the Blaine girls program (or despise it) that would be happy to read all she can type, but that none of that would be good for the 14 year old girl - if there is actually a 14 year old girl behind the curtain.
What the heck is that supposed to mean?

GirlsHockeyIsAwesome

Post by GirlsHockeyIsAwesome » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:33 pm

InigoMontoya - I think you made your point!

Post Reply