Taking Girls' Programs Seriously in Association Hockey

legalbeagle05 · Post by **legalbeagle05** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:47 am

I'm starting this string after posting a positive reply to the long slam on Edina's Girls program in an earlier string. Another reader suggested I start a new string as many others had probably had the same experience with their own associations and could probably relate to their daughter('s') experience(s). I hope to hear that other associations are equal to Edina's, in other words treat girls' hockey with the respect that it deserves. If that means they need some cake to eat, hell, I'll turn my oven on and start the baking myself. Our girls deserve it.

Here's my original post:

At least the Girls' Program is taken seriously in Edina. We just had to switch our daughter from the Girls program in her association (in an unmentionable very large nearby city adjoining Edina) because that association just doesn't put the resources into its Girls program - even though they promote it as this wonderful thing that is growing and that they want to grow more.

The coaches are all volunteer dads, the stuff on the ice are blow up balls, rings and plastic pucks (for u8 players!), and the practices never start on time, plus kids flop all over the ice and are never told to get up and do the drills. We switched her over to the boys' program and it was like night and day: much better coaching (hey! A former NHLer even!), only one coach related to a kid on the ice, structure, discipline...plus, real pucks and NO "bath toys" as I started calling them. Practices start right on time and there are actual scrimmages and real games.

The Girls' Program doesn't even have games scheduled and they never divided up the teams into jersey colors because they didn't want people to feel like they were picking "levels". COME ON. Seriously? Give them a goal - let them work up to it - LET THEM KNOW HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR IF THEIR GAME NEEDS SOME WORK.

...Or they'll jump ship and skate with the better organized team and have a blast with the organization, discipline and structure of it all - all in a different colored jersey during an actual game when she scores her first real goal. THAT'S HOCKEY. \_

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:59 am

I have a hundred stories. Thx for the thread I will def come back when I have more time.

hockeychopper · Post by **hockeychopper** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:48 pm

Here's my original post:

At least the Girls' Program is taken seriously in Edina. We just had to switch our daughter from the Girls program in her association (in an unmentionable very large nearby city adjoining Edina) because that association just doesn't put the resources into its Girls program - even though they promote it as this wonderful thing that is growing and that they want to grow more.

The coaches are all volunteer dads, the stuff on the ice are blow up balls, rings and plastic pucks (for u8 players!), and the practices never start on time, plus kids flop all over the ice and are never told to get up and do the drills. We switched her over to the boys' program and it was like night and day: much better coaching (hey! A former NHLer even!), only one coach related to a kid on the ice, structure, discipline...plus, real pucks and NO "bath toys" as I started calling them. Practices start right on time and there are actual scrimmages and real games.

The Girls' Program doesn't even have games scheduled and they never divided up the teams into jersey colors because they didn't want people to feel like they were picking "levels". COME ON. Seriously? Give them a goal - let them work up to it - LET THEM KNOW HOW GOOD THEY ARE OR IF THEIR GAME NEEDS SOME WORK.

...Or they'll jump ship and skate with the better organized team and have a blast with the organization, discipline and structure of it all - all in a different colored jersey during an actual game when she scores her first real goal. THAT'S HOCKEY. \_[/quote]
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That sounds like a train wreck legalbeagle05- I know that's not the norm however. I know all associations try and put together good boys and girls programs, no doubt. I really believe a lot comes down to the leadership of the girls program. You need someone that is passionate about Girls hockey and someone that is energetic to go out and recruit new kids, retain the one's already there and try to find good coaches. It is very, very difficult to find non-parent coaches for a girls program. Many of the high profile coaches (female or male) are either coaching in the Girls HS programs or college programs. It's very difficult. With that said, it's back to the leadership of the program. The person in charge needs to find quality coaches (parent or non-parent)inform them of how the program is run and either you're in or your out. Once they are in, it's about accountability. I believe many girls association programs are thriving and moving in the right direction. Numbers still cause issues but overall the competition, skill and level of play is increasing year after year.I do agree though, like anything if you're not putting out a good product (girls hockey program) there are other options. Families pay way too much these days.

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:14 pm

Growth of your association starts with recruiting 5 year olds. All players pay the same amount of money so there should be no discrimination against the girls program.

It's like ski areas that thought they could do without snowboarders and several didn't allow them at first. Now all do and snowboarders generate almost half of the revenue at some ski areas. They're the savior and growing girls registrations can be a savior to hockey associations too.

Growth is growth whether it is a male or female newly registered hockey player.

More players, more revenue, more and better volunteers, more and better coaches, more teams and the teams will be more successful.

Grow your recruiting effort and grow your association!

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:19 pm

hockeychopper wrote: That sounds like a train wreck legalbeagle05- I know that's not the norm however. I know all associations try and put together good boys and girls programs, no doubt. I really believe a lot comes down to the leadership of the girls program. You need someone that is passionate about Girls hockey and someone that is energetic to go out and recruit new kids, retain the one's already there and try to find good coaches. It is very, very difficult to find non-parent coaches for a girls program. Many of the high profile coaches (female or male) are either coaching in the Girls HS programs or college programs. It's very difficult. With that said, it's back to the leadership of the program. The person in charge needs to find quality coaches (parent or non-parent)inform them of how the program is run and either you're in or your out. Once they are in, it's about accountability. I believe many girls association programs are thriving and moving in the right direction. Numbers still cause issues but overall the competition, skill and level of play is increasing year after year.I do agree though, like anything if you're not putting out a good product (girls hockey program) there are other options. Families pay way too much these days.

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I do think it is the norm that the girls programs are neglected. I don't think they are necessarily as bad as his example but it isn't good either. While the level of play has increased in a huge way, I don't think that can be credited to very many association boards. My daughter is in a middle size association. She has been playing boys hockey for 2 years and will probably play a final year of boys hockey next year. Here is our example. Our association had enough girls to create 2 small (8-9 skater) teams or 1 large team. Because of this, 3 seasons ago, she decided to play peewee hockey. She went through pre-skates with the boys, and she proved she could definitely play with the boys. The day before try-outs, the association president came to us. Asked us to have her play U12. Guaranteed he would find the additional players we needed by joining with another association or two. She agreed to play U12 hockey. After tryouts, the board calls all the U12 players parents together. They start the meeting by telling us that they want to just have 1 team. That they can't find any more players. What? The association president has just decided to screw over the girls program. We did end up with 2 teams but only after we made it clear to him that we would go to the district, Minnesota Hockey and USA Hockey to force all the tryouts to be redone so she can go back and play peewees.

The last two years, she has been asked by the board to play girls hockey. They have even offered to get her on another associations top team. Just to keep her from playing boys hockey.

Even the number of hours of ice the girls get is different. The boys get more ice (5 to 10 hours) than the girls.

I tell every parent of a girl hockey player to play boys hockey in our association. Force the board to decide to support and develop the girls program. I think I might finally be getting through to the board. I've been asking them for 5 years to help solve some of our issues by joining our girls with those from another association on a permanent basis. It sounds like they are finally considering this option and are actually working on it. We will see. In the meantime, my daughter will continue to play boys hockey.

This isn't just a local association problem either. It is a Minnesota Hockey problem and a district level problem. They can either try to draw girls away from other sports like basketball, volleyball, swimming, dance, etc or watch girls hockey stagnate. Encourage co-ops so girls can play at the right levels. Encourage long term co-ops so girls have friends on teams and can get used to playing with each other.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:11 am

If an association has board positions for a Mites director, a Squirt director, a Peewee director, a Bantam director, and a Girls director; inequality is built into the by-laws.

Bandy · Post by **Bandy** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:21 am

InigoMontoya wrote:If an association has board positions for a Mites director, a Squirt director, a Peewee director, a Bantam director, and a Girls director; inequality is built into the by-laws.

Maybe, but... A lot of mites are girls, so the mites director serves girls and boys. A few squirts & peewees are girls, though not many anymore.

Also, the boys outnumber the girls. Our association has 6 squirt teams (dominated by boys, of course). There are "only" 5 girls teams in the entire association -- U8, 2 U10s, and 2 U12s. So, saying the girls are under-represented by having a Girls director (and not a u8 director, a u10 director, and a u12 director) is a bit of a stretch.

Statewide, there are about 12,000 girls & 41000 boys registered in hockey, so having a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio in association board positions doesn't seem too out of whack.

Having said that, any board and boys directors that don't appreciate, and give an equal place at the table, to the girls portion of their association are terribly misguided. Minnesota leads the nation in girls players, and D1 women recruits. God bless Title 9!

hockeychopper · Post by **hockeychopper** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:33 am

Bandy wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:If an association has board positions for a Mites director, a Squirt director, a Peewee director, a Bantam director, and a Girls director; inequality is built into the by-laws.
Maybe, but... A lot of mites are girls, so the mites director serves girls and boys. A few squirts & peewees are girls, though not many anymore.

Also, the boys outnumber the girls. Our association has 6 squirt teams (dominated by boys, of course). There are "only" 5 girls teams in the entire association -- U8, 2 U10s, and 2 U12s. So, saying the girls are under-represented by having a Girls director (and not a u8 director, a u10 director, and a u12 director) is a bit of a stretch.

Statewide, there are about 12,000 girls & 41000 boys registered in hockey, so having a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio in association board positions doesn't seem too out of whack.

Having said that, any board and boys directors that don't appreciate, and give an equal place at the table, to the girls portion of their association are terribly misguided. Minnesota leads the nation in girls players, and D1 women recruits. God bless Title 9!

Well said Bandy!!!!!!!!

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:50 am

I disagree.

If the Girls director is the only one truly representing the girls program, then they are under-represented even if they only have one 10u team. It's nice to say that those on the boys' side should appreciate the girls side, but unfortunately that doesn't make it so. When limited dollars, limited coaches, limited equipment, and limited ice are allocated; even those appreciators have a hard time being equitable to the girls - the girls should have everything they need, as long as they don't take it away from the boys.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:02 pm

I agree with everything you said. But I think often this little piece is where the problems start.

InigoMontoya wrote: the girls should have everything they need, as long as they don't take it away from the boys.

There is no reason a girls program should take anything away from the boys. Unfortunately, I think many board members believe that the girls program does nothing but take away from the boys. Taking ice the boys could use, costing extra money to pay for girls tryouts, taking money from the boys program to pay for jerseys, etc. Taking the boards time to address any issues that may exist in the girls program.

Can't the girls just play another sport like basketball, dance, gymnastics, swimming, etc. Heaven forbid if a girl gets tired of being treated as a second class citizen and tries to play on a boys team. Now she is taking a spot on a boys team from a boy who was certainly going to be a star on the HS team, play D1 and make it to the pros.

In reality she probably took a spot from a boy that likes to play hockey but doesn't have any real passion for it and will never play after HS.

My association doesn't have girls and boys directors. Just mite and traveling. And of those 10+ people on the board, only 1 has a daughter that plays hockey.

legalbeagle05 · Post by **legalbeagle05** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:21 pm

BluehawkHockey wrote:In reality she probably took a spot from a boy that likes to play hockey but doesn't have any real passion for it and will never play after HS.

You're brilliant, Bluehawk.

She'll probably take the puck from him with a filthy dangle, too.

Even with half the ice time as the boys, the girls STILL deserve the coaches to show up on time and be prepared for the practices with drills and plans - not stand around as if, "Well...what should we do next?" Absolutely no thought put into it in comparison with the boys program. It's like going from park board to Triple A. Read the interviews with our Gophers, other D1 players, and Olympians - all of them will say, "I grew up playing on boys teams..."

We tried to give it a chance, but we wanted our kid to have the best possible opportunity. When we saw just over in the rink next door kids being treated better, that's when we pulled her.

Thankfully, other girls like Bluehawks' girl are doing the same so she'll have a great team/competition against other quality young women as she gets older. But what a struggle to get there. Shouldn't have to be so stupidly hard when between 1/4 to 1/3 of the Minnesota hockey kids (12,000 out of 41,000 you said? so 29%?) are girls.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:32 am

legalbeagle05 wrote:Shouldn't have to be so stupidly hard when between 1/4 to 1/3 of the Minnesota hockey kids (12,000 out of 41,000 you said? so 29%?) are girls.

I agree. It really shouldn't be so hard. I wish the problems were only at the association level. I believe the problems go up through the district level and through Minnesota Hockey as well. They probably go up through USA Hockey as well.

I know the girls are considered second class citizens at the district and state level. Just look at the HP 14/15 program. It was originally only going to be for boys. If the girls parents hadn't spoken up and hinted at having their girls play on the boys side. And if a few coaches like Rob/Jenny Potter in D10 and I'm sure others, hadn't stepped forward, it would have only been for boys.

I always tell the parents of girls hockey players to play boys hockey. I think it may be a way to get through to the association boards that are failing their girls programs for all the girls in the association to play boys hockey. I think it would only take a year for the boards to figure out a way to provide support for the girls programs. That does include getting coaches that want to coach and are prepared for practices and games.

It shouldn't be this hard but maybe pushing through now with our daughters will make it better for the girls coming up in the next 10 years.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:35 am

Doesn't appear there is much interest in this topic. Anybody else notice that FSN wouldn't even put a girls game on TV during HDM, at a time that was watchable at all.

Pitiful statement about the value of girls hockey in Minnesota.

legalbeagle05 · Post by **legalbeagle05** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:47 am

BluehawkHockey wrote:Doesn't appear there is much interest in this topic. Anybody else notice that FSN wouldn't even put a girls game on TV during HDM, at a time that was watchable at all.

Pitiful statement about the value of girls hockey in Minnesota.

Oh, they did put one on t.v.

This says it all: The University of Minnesota SAYS they value their women's hockey program and that they want to increase the fan base. Yet on Friday, they opened Mariucci arena so ticket holders to the Hockey City Classic could watch the women's game on t.v., stay warm and eat food until the men's game started at 8 pm.

Watch the Women's game ON T.V. when it was LIVE 2 blocks away on the actual rink - the event that the ticket holders were holding their tickets for in their little mittens. Is this The State of Hockey or Beverly Hills?

COME ON. Go support your teams.

(Yes, I was there. Yes, I stayed. And ate cold French fries. Had a blast! Still thawing out... LOL )

hockeychopper · Post by **hockeychopper** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:23 pm

BluehawkHockey wrote:Doesn't appear there is much interest in this topic. Anybody else notice that FSN wouldn't even put a girls game on TV during HDM, at a time that was watchable at all.

Pitiful statement about the value of girls hockey in Minnesota.

Agreed! I believe in order to get girls hockey "part" of the HDM event, it needs to be it's own event. There almost needs to be a Girls Hockey Day MN event that is stand alone. Have the UofM Women's team as the staple event at the end of the day (like the WILD do today) and have Girls games all day long leading up to the main event. We have the top Women's college team in the nation, some of the top HS teams in the country as well as some very strong girls youth teams/programs- yet HDM tape delays the Girls HS game and the Women's Gopher team didn't even play on Saturday. WOW! We're missing a great opportunity to showcase our girls hockey programs and get more of these young girls into hockey.

wolfman · Post by **wolfman** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:17 pm

Hey Hockeychopper set up the all girls HDM day and i will be there. At the end of the day the only people that go to girls HS hockey games are the parents-grandparents-boyfriends and a few other people. My daughter plays and im at every game along with most of the other parents. I took my daughter to a girls Gopher game and the place was empty (about 350 people). If You think HDM would work without the boys your not thinking straight. No disrespect though. Again set it up and i will be there. I just spent the last 12 days helping with HDM in ER and it was alot of work for an army of people. There were 4k people at the Pit in ER for the boys game and the girls played right after and we ended up with about 200 watching the game. Its the way it is and its not gonna change.

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:24 pm

Who actually puts on HDM? Is it Minnesota Hockey that arranges it or is it FSN? Who needs to feel the pressure to treat the mens and womens hockey the same? If MSHSL is involved, shouldn't they be feeling some heat for not treating girls hockey equally?

If MN Hockey is involved, shouldn't they be feeling heat for not treating girls hockey equally?

hockeychopper · Post by **hockeychopper** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:01 pm

wolfman wrote:Hey Hockeychopper set up the all girls HDM day and i will be there. At the end of the day the only people that go to girls HS hockey games are the parents-grandparents-boyfriends and a few other people. My daughter plays and im at every game along with most of the other parents. I took my daughter to a girls Gopher game and the place was empty (about 350 people). If You think HDM would work without the boys your not thinking straight. No disrespect though. Again set it up and i will be there. I just spent the last 12 days helping with HDM in ER and it was alot of work for an army of people. There were 4k people at the Pit in ER for the boys game and the girls played right after and we ended up with about 200 watching the game. Its the way it is and its not gonna change.

I hear you wolfman. I too am a girls hockey parent, go to all the games and attend many Women's gopher games as well. You're spot on there aren't a lot of people watching these great games. Will the Girls game ever be able to compete with the boys, no but why not try and get something off the ground for Girls as well. I'm not saying pull the plug on Girls from participating in HDM but why not try something for the girls. No doubt it's a ton of work to make something like this happen, but if you get the right people involved you may be surprised what could be accomplished. What we need is for a group of passionate folks to step up and make something happen. There's too many that say "it's the way it is and it's not going to change". I ask why not?

legalbeagle05 · Post by **legalbeagle05** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:21 pm

hockeychopper wrote: I ask why not?

Exactly. Because they aren't become NHL stars? I'm sick of hearing that one. Gimme another one. And you can't give me "speed" or "strength" either, because if that were the case none of us would be watching youth hockey - we'd be watching college or the pros.

It's the GAME. The love of the damn game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_Day_Minnesota

Only two girls games were ever televised, and they were both tape-delayed. One of them, a Minnetonka v. Hopkins game. A Minnetonka v Hopkins game tape-delayed? Can you imagine the out-cry if that happened to a M v H boys game?

What really makes me mad is that BTN televised the Gopher men's game...and not the women's game. WHAT. It's HOCKEY Day. You can't give 3 hours to a two-time National Championship team that won 64 straight hockey games in the Big Ten? dudes.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:40 pm

Blue Hawk,
A small correction on the Girls 14/15 fall program. When it became clear that the fall program was approved for boys the District Director Tim Timm and the D10 executive committee had the Girls all set up and ready to go as a trial program also included were the staff from the Adv 15 girls program for D10.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:22 am

FSN doesn't televise HDM out of the goodness of their hearts. They make money-which is what successful companies do. Whether they make money directly from advertisers of that game, or they build a fan base for their Gopher and Wild games, or they pressure a regional cable company to add their services, etc., it is about increasing shareholder value.

The idea of building the fan base of people that will watch the game on TV is kind of a Catch 22. People can't become interested in a team unless they see them; they can't see them unless enough people are interested. The average peewee could name more than half of the Gopher men's team; many could name them all, including some of the kids that don't dress every weekend. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a 12u that could name 3 or 4 of the women. ...Except the parents of Gopher women, how many of us can name 10? 5? 2?

BluehawkHockey · Post by **BluehawkHockey** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:44 am

I'm have no doubt that FSN is putting the games on to drive revenue. I don't have a problem with that. Does the MSHSL have to give permission for the HS games to be televised? Is the MSHSL getting paid something for allowing it? Doesn't the MSHSL require the TV station that carries the Boys State Hockey tournament to also carry the Girls tournament? Couldn't they also require FSN to show a girls game at a reasonable time. I think it would have just been nice to allow the game to be seen at a reasonable time. Maybe play the girls game at 8:00am and show it live. Just give the youngest girls a chance to see a girls game on TV.

As far as HDM for girls is concerned, I think it would be difficult. But how about this for an idea. Many of the cable communities carry 1 or 2 HS games a week. How about trying to organize all those stations to each carry a local girls HS game live on HDM.

Nevertoomuchhockey · Post by **Nevertoomuchhockey** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:36 am

InigoMontoya wrote:FSN doesn't televise HDM out of the goodness of their hearts. They make money-which is what successful companies do. Whether they make money directly from advertisers of that game, or they build a fan base for their Gopher and Wild games, or they pressure a regional cable company to add their services, etc., it is about increasing shareholder value.

The idea of building the fan base of people that will watch the game on TV is kind of a Catch 22. People can't become interested in a team unless they see them; they can't see them unless enough people are interested. The average peewee could name more than half of the Gopher men's team; many could name them all, including some of the kids that don't dress every weekend. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a 12u that could name 3 or 4 of the women. ...Except the parents of Gopher women, how many of us can name 10? 5? 2?

I could. And almost all of UMD, prob half of St. Cloud, and top 2-4 on most metro and top 20 high school teams and at least half of all the 96s getting any playing time. HOWEVER, this is unusual, rare, and just darn crazy. Never really thought about how familiar I actually am with the MN girls players from a purely names and numbers perspective. It will be interesting (at least for me!) to see how my opinions and "knowledge" change and expand the next couple seasons when my daughter and I actually watch rather than read about these girls and programs.
But your point about the fans or lack there of for attending or even watching girls hockey at any level is right on. The epic winning streak of our women's Golden Gophers? If that didn't get this state excited for women's hockey, nothing will!
At the big Duluth tourney this weekend they gave free tickets to all the girls for Sat. or Sun. game and it was only $4 admission for the rest of us. The UMD girls players even came out to a dedicated event for the young ladies in this tourney - pics, autographs, posters, etc. Of the thousand girls playing up there (is that number anywhere close to correct Duluthians?) I'd say less than 150 were at that Sat. game and less than 50 at the restaurant! Kudos to the tourney organizers and the Bulldogs for doing this event, but will it even be considered for next year considering the appalling turnout? My son and his friends would have paid, stood in line, taken a hundred pics to post online, and spoken/bragged about this for a month if it had happened for them! I don't know - maybe the costs and logistics are so overwhelming for young girls hockey parents that there isn't any time, $, or motivation left to encourage the excitement and love of the game that would ultimately make their daughters more invested, more dedicated to improving? The fact that my own baby girl has a handful of mostly local high school girls she follows and even tries to model her game after didn't seem unusual after what I've experienced with my son and his friends. But I've seen it's extremely unusual. I'd say better than half of her teammates have never seen a hockey game, live or tv, at ANY level EVER unless its a sibling.
Guess the likelihood of recouping my AAA, Breakfast Club, Selects, and other hockey program and equipment costs after my daughter gets drafted into the WNHL isn't looking good.

At least that Div 1 "athletic" scholarship is locked up. Hahahahahahaha.

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Taking Girls' Programs Seriously in Association Hockey

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