The High Cost Of Competitive Pre-H.S. Sports

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MNHockeyFan
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The High Cost Of Competitive Pre-H.S. Sports

Post by MNHockeyFan » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:05 pm

No surprise to those reading this Forum, but the cost of year-around youth hockey ranks right up there with the most expensive sports.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/02/1 ... -s-sports/

lrugland
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Post by lrugland » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:24 pm

Another reason not to play year round. There is no need for that.

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:42 pm

lrugland wrote:Another reason not to play year round. There is no need for that.
I disagree. I don't think you have to play 12 months a year 365 days a year. But watching my son the last 15 years and my daughter the last 10, the kids around them and the paths each family has taken, IMHO the skating differential between those who only play association or those who mix in AAA or power skating or AAU becomes more marked each year. And at some point that margin can't be made up. That doesn't mean it has to cost a ton or $$ to keep up with the hockey Jones's. But come October, most of the boys that haven't seen the ice all summer are identifiable a mile away.

Snap Happy
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Post by Snap Happy » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:44 pm

The writer of the article quotes a U of M prof who specializes in "Sociology of Youth Sports".....who seems to know very little about youth sports if you look in to her facts and details a little...

Nevertoomuchhockey
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Post by Nevertoomuchhockey » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:50 pm

Is that a real degree now? After fathering for 17 years, almost all of which have involved sports, I wonder how many real life experience credits they'll grant me toward my Doctorate of Hockey Studies (minor in Lacrosse.)

Lace'emUp
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Post by Lace'emUp » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:21 pm

Studies also show that 66 percent of young athlete’s parents think their child will make a high school team.

“If you take 1,000 youth soccer players in any community and 660 think they are going to be on a high school team, I don’t know of any high school team that has 660 players,” Lavoi said.


Terrible example. I'd like to find the community that has 1000 soccer players in the 9th-12th grade HS levels. As for hockey, we're a "big school, and had about 50 girls tryout for HS, and 35 or so made the cut for one of the teams (Var or JV). That's 70%. So this dramatized, meaningless, statistical comment is a moot point. It was only added to create shock value to the reader - "oh wow, are parents that delusional to think they are spending all that money to make a HS team".

This whole article is old old news. Reporters dig it up every year and report it like it's award winning journalism.

lrugland
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Post by lrugland » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:19 pm

Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:
lrugland wrote:Another reason not to play year round. There is no need for that.
I disagree. I don't think you have to play 12 months a year 365 days a year. But watching my son the last 15 years and my daughter the last 10, the kids around them and the paths each family has taken, IMHO the skating differential between those who only play association or those who mix in AAA or power skating or AAU becomes more marked each year. And at some point that margin can't be made up. That doesn't mean it has to cost a ton or $$ to keep up with the hockey Jones's. But come October, most of the boys that haven't seen the ice all summer are identifiable a mile away.
It OK to disagree but look at it this way:

Take a kid that has great talent that only skates from Oct to April. They are one of the top players on their team. After hockey they run track and then train in the the summer with weight training, sprints and play some lacrosse. Then this player plays football or runs cross country in the fall. When that player steps on the ice again they will once again be one of the top athletes on the team all the way through HS.

Now take a kid that is an average athlete that works hard but has average skills. They play 9 months of the year and travel all over to camps trying to improve and development. As the years go by they continue to improve but never reach the level of the best players on the team. Yet their hard work is rewarded by them being a second or third line player on the varsity team.

What I am saying is the athletes with talent are always going to be on top when it comes to HS sports. Without the talent it does not matter how much you spend on extra work. BUT the athletes that DO have the talent and DO put in the extra work make the step to the next level.

We can all look back and list names that fall into one of these scenarios. We would all love to believe that the more our kids play the better they are going to get, but thats just not the case. It takes talent AND hard work for it all to work out.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:10 am

lrugland wrote:
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:
lrugland wrote:Another reason not to play year round. There is no need for that.
I disagree. I don't think you have to play 12 months a year 365 days a year. But watching my son the last 15 years and my daughter the last 10, the kids around them and the paths each family has taken, IMHO the skating differential between those who only play association or those who mix in AAA or power skating or AAU becomes more marked each year. And at some point that margin can't be made up. That doesn't mean it has to cost a ton or $$ to keep up with the hockey Jones's. But come October, most of the boys that haven't seen the ice all summer are identifiable a mile away.
It OK to disagree but look at it this way:

Take a kid that has great talent that only skates from Oct to April. They are one of the top players on their team. After hockey they run track and then train in the the summer with weight training, sprints and play some lacrosse. Then this player plays football or runs cross country in the fall. When that player steps on the ice again they will once again be one of the top athletes on the team all the way through HS.

Now take a kid that is an average athlete that works hard but has average skills. They play 9 months of the year and travel all over to camps trying to improve and development. As the years go by they continue to improve but never reach the level of the best players on the team. Yet their hard work is rewarded by them being a second or third line player on the varsity team.

What I am saying is the athletes with talent are always going to be on top when it comes to HS sports. Without the talent it does not matter how much you spend on extra work. BUT the athletes that DO have the talent and DO put in the extra work make the step to the next level.

We can all look back and list names that fall into one of these scenarios. We would all love to believe that the more our kids play the better they are going to get, but thats just not the case. It takes talent AND hard work for it all to work out.
Gretzky's famous quote about putting away the skates ignores the fact that nobody skated more in the winter. He skated 10, 12, 14 hours a day.

Talent + hard work is the key. It doesn't matter if you're Gretzky, or Tyus Jones, or Jincy Dunne. The best kids outwork everyone else no matter what sport they're playing.

zambonidriver
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Multi sport athletes

Post by zambonidriver » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:02 pm

I've taught and coached at both big and small schools and this is the thing I have learned. All athletes are different and talent and passion levels are different. Ultimately you need passion talent and work ethic to get to the highest level. We as parents can provide the opportunities for our children (7)
What makes the difference between an exceptional athlete and merely a good one is passion. As parents we offer the opportunities our children based on their passion for the sport will accept the opportunity or not. Which as parents we need to accept. Over the years from my teaching and coaching experience and having children of my own. I have seen super youth players become mediocre players and vice versa based basically on love of the game and passion for competition. I have had one d1 family member and a d2 family member and a d 3 family member all in different sports they had one thinkg in common passion for the sport and the willingness to feed that passion. The best athlete in our family never was a varsity player. He played junior gold because his passion was for music. Which is great. So the debate about year round or not is really moot. If our kids are truly passionate about hockey then playing year round is something they probably will choose to do. If they are not then they will find something else.

sinbin
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Post by sinbin » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:49 pm

Yes, facilitating your kids' discovery of their passions is absolutely critical. Give the kids all the opportunities you can to let them discover their passions, then support them and enjoy watching them, even if their favored sport is not your own.

greybeard58
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Post by greybeard58 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:01 pm


InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:58 am


InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:59 am

A little different perspective.

Snap Happy
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Post by Snap Happy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:57 am

I was just thinking about this yesterday...

We were looking into competitive gymnastics for my daughter recently -- $6-$7k a year -- and that's just for training and fees (travel not included).

Just wondering what people pay for some other sports and activities for their kids who want to play year round. I am thinking that hockey seems to get the bad wrap for being very expensive when other sports can be just as bad (if not more like gymnastics above) -- anyone know what people pay for year round volleyball, softball, dance, soccer, fine arts, etc?

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:04 pm

Snap Happy wrote:I was just thinking about this yesterday...

We were looking into competitive gymnastics for my daughter recently -- $6-$7k a year -- and that's just for training and fees (travel not included).

Just wondering what people pay for some other sports and activities for their kids who want to play year round. I am thinking that hockey seems to get the bad wrap for being very expensive when other sports can be just as bad (if not more like gymnastics above) -- anyone know what people pay for year round volleyball, softball, dance, soccer, fine arts, etc?
Anecdotal evidence. I have a friend in Brooklyn Park whose daughter plays volleyball and lacrosse, junior high aged. He was paying a couple thousand a year for each sport, I remember him telling me he cut a $2000 check for her travel v-ball team. She is a better lacrosse player as she made the HS team as an 8th grader and he told me he is done with volleyball and she will focus on lacrosse (last year they made trips to Virginia and Colorado = not cheap). I am not sure she is ready to give up on volleyball, LOL.

I remember the conversation years ago about encouraging him to get his son involved in youth hockey. He complained about the cost. I recently reminded him of that conversation and how much cheaper it would be for his kid to play hockey than what he is shelling out now (his son also plays travel lacrosse).

I have another friend whose daugher is involved in Dance. $400/month, 12 months a year, and that doesn't include the cost of competitions or costumes. Dance is not cheap.

I have another friend whose two daughters are in gymnastics. The costs were similar to that of dance. They recently moved to Eagan and had to change which gym he sends his daughters to now. I know one thing, I don't think it got any cheaper. His son also plays AAU basketball, that is not cheap either.

Hockey gets the bad rap but the reality is that any sports or other activity these days, when you take it to a level beyond rec, is expensive.

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:10 pm

Also needed to cut and paste this from the article:

Sports where year-round training is the norm (Figure skating, Competitive Dance, Tennis, Gymnastics): $5,000 to upwards of $10,000

Fathers will do anything for their daughters.

zambonidriver
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costs

Post by zambonidriver » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:34 pm

My daughter is a goalie and trains year round. I will say in the least it is expensive. For goalie parents it is a must. The training associations provide is horrible. I have learned that summer is now for skills work and fundamentals. Association hockey is for hanging out with your friends. I learned this with our older girls and my 12 year old has restated this many times over. A lot of it has to do with ice time. The summer the minimum practice time is 1-1/4 hour and for the most part it is an hour and a half with tournaments running 17 minute periods. The cost is similar to the winter and some programs are actually cheaper than in the winter. From Oct through the state tournament including game and tournaments a total of 85 hours of ice for our association. The summer team including games and tournaments the same amount of Ice time Shorter time hour and half practices

SCBlueLiner
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Post by SCBlueLiner » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:03 pm

Z-driver, there is a larger issue there. I argue with the coaches in our association (I'm coaching director), well shouldn't say argue, rather have had numerous conversations, that they are there to coach the goalies too. That they better be working goalie specific drill time into their practice plans and make sure a coach is working through goalie movement drills, etc. with them.

I guess they don't realize that great goaltending is the best way to become more competitive in games. Try as you want, you can have a great team of skaters but bad goaltending will let you down. On the flipside, great goaltending can keep the less talented team in the game and give them the opportunity to win.

I cannot figure out why so many coaches just throw a kid in net and expect them to stop the puck.

Edited to add: Even if the coach has never played goalie before, watch some videos, learn a little bit about the position, fake it. You are a grown man dealing with a 10, 12, 14 year old player, you should be able to handle it. Heck, if nothing else pull up YouTube with the goalie and watch the vids together and discuss what you are each watching and learn together. Just do something other than throwing them in net and firing pucks on them.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:37 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote:Z-driver, there is a larger issue there. I argue with the coaches in our association (I'm coaching director), well shouldn't say argue, rather have had numerous conversations, that they are there to coach the goalies too. That they better be working goalie specific drill time into their practice plans and make sure a coach is working through goalie movement drills, etc. with them.

I guess they don't realize that great goaltending is the best way to become more competitive in games. Try as you want, you can have a great team of skaters but bad goaltending will let you down. On the flipside, great goaltending can keep the less talented team in the game and give them the opportunity to win.

I cannot figure out why so many coaches just throw a kid in net and expect them to stop the puck.

Edited to add: Even if the coach has never played goalie before, watch some videos, learn a little bit about the position, fake it. You are a grown man dealing with a 10, 12, 14 year old player, you should be able to handle it. Heck, if nothing else pull up YouTube with the goalie and watch the vids together and discuss what you are each watching and learn together. Just do something other than throwing them in net and firing pucks on them.[/It is an association thing associations can't justify the ice time or the expense for goalie development. again political entities. My daughter trains with prohybrid who I think is the best but that is debatable she was introduced to it in mites because our association had a night that was designated just for goalies. mites through squirts early and peewees through bantams an hour later. They were every Wednesday and they were packed. They were also free. The director of player development had a boy who was a goalie and recognized that goalies were not getting the instruction that was needed. So he shopped around and got the best deal. When his term was over the new PDD bowed to the pressure of the skater parents who were complaining about the specialized training and now they have some independent guy who is just instructing mites and squirts on the cheap. ]

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:12 am

It OK to disagree but look at it this way:

Take a kid that has great talent that only skates from Oct to April. They are one of the top players on their team. After hockey they run track and then train in the the summer with weight training, sprints and play some lacrosse. Then this player plays football or runs cross country in the fall. When that player steps on the ice again they will once again be one of the top athletes on the team all the way through HS.

Now take a kid that is an average athlete that works hard but has average skills. They play 9 months of the year and travel all over to camps trying to improve and development. As the years go by they continue to improve but never reach the level of the best players on the team. Yet their hard work is rewarded by them being a second or third line player on the varsity team.

What I am saying is the athletes with talent are always going to be on top when it comes to HS sports. Without the talent it does not matter how much you spend on extra work. BUT the athletes that DO have the talent and DO put in the extra work make the step to the next level.
Since we're in a safe, nurturing environment here, I'll disagree with part of this.

First, I think there are examples of less physically gifted kids that work hard and make it to the next level. Last weekend NC attack, Joey Sankey, became the all-time leading scorer in NC lacrosse history. Listed at 5'5" 160 on the roster, he's not gifted with size; he's certainly not slow, but I don't think you'd describe him as fast, either. I don't think he'd be a basketball, football, baseball, etc. star at UNC, but he works his butt off to be a heck of a D1 lacrosse player - great hands, great shot, great vision. Closer to home, I don't think anyone whom has seen Lindsay Whalen play, would use the words physically gifted before using the words hard working.

Second, I think playing high school sports is different than attempting to reach the next level; especially when you look at smaller schools, or sports at a school that aren't the big deal. I'll agree that it takes a great athlete that works very hard to wrestle at Apple Valley, to play girls' lacrosse at Blake, to play football at Eden Prairie, to play hockey at Edina, Hermantown, or, in your case, Roseau. The best athletes, and lots of them, are playing those sports at those schools; you need to be a DIII, if not a DI caliber athlete to compete. A less gifted girl in Crookston may be able to work really hard and become the star of that team. I apologize for not having a better knowledge, but I'd guess that in Roseau, if a kid spent a lot of hours on the tennis court or the golf course, he or she may be a contributor for the high school team, possibly even section or state.

Third, I absolutely think that hockey involves a combination of skating and stickhandling skills that are unique to sport. And even at smaller schools with lesser hockey programs, super athletes headed to D1 football, baseball, volleyball, swimming, track, etc. bow out of high school hockey because they don't have the time, or don't care to allocate the time they have, to continuing to maintain or improve those skills.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:32 am

Where'd everybody go? I didn't mean to shut down the thread; I just wanted to float a different opinion than, 'unless mom and dad were both Olympic athletes, there is no reason for the kid to work hard in the off-season'. To paraphrase, 'hard work beats talent, if talent doesn't work hard'. One thing that summer hockey has done (in addition to accepting our money), it has pushed talent to work harder, as more and more hard work shows up at the rink in the fall.

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