u 14- or high school?

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

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Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:07 am

zambonidriver wrote:
Mavs wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:I guess the problem can be brought right back to the perception that what sex you are born either limits your opportunities or not. All change is not bad women now are fighter pilots and firemen, jobs until just a short time ago were male only jobs. We have to be willing to put our male ego's aside and not only accept change embrace it. The greatest female hockey player in the sport played boys until she went to varsity. She played peewee's and bantams when you could hit in both. The Idea of associations should be to develop players for both the boys and girls side equally. If a girl is a standout player and needs to play boys she should be welcomed with open arms and be praised for having the courage to tryout. She should then be judged on her ability not by her sex.
Granted I am biased, whether a girl plays on the boys or girls side the development should be equal. I have always argued that boys and girls should play together through bantams for the best possible development. Then the boys and girls would be used to playing with each other all the way up and you would produce well developed boys and girls players. It would never fly because it makes to much sense.
Do the boys get the opportunity to play girls or are their opportunities limited?
Come on Mavs you are more intelligent than this you know what I was saying. Combine boys and girls develop all of them at the same rate then numbers are not that important.
I know. Was just messin with ya

hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:55 pm

Of course HM does, they have no youth feeder association to work with. Any private school would be foolish not to.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:07 pm

hockeywild7 wrote:Of course HM does, they have no youth feeder association to work with. Any private school would be foolish not to.
NE Metro is Hill-Murray's de facto youth association. Any kid going to Hill-Murray not playing V/JV plays there. And then you can look to every other local D2 association for gals who will "feed" the H-M program, from Hudson to Stillwater, Forest Lake to Mounds View.

hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:16 pm

Interesting to note that of the eight 8th graders on the HM JV in 10-11 only 2 made it to the varsity by senior year. But they also get new players each year coming in as 9th graders and sometimes 10th. Simple math, you can't keep them all.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:30 pm

MN Hockey is voting to decide if they should change U14 to U15.

C_R
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Post by C_R » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:11 pm

More info here on proposed 14U / 15U change -

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... -26_r3.pdf

goaliedad31
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Post by goaliedad31 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:18 am

What is the purpose of this change? What are they trying to achieve.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:43 am

goaliedad31 wrote:What is the purpose of this change? What are they trying to achieve.
I think it is to allow the high school coaches an opportunity to build their JV programs with younger players and give them the freedom to cut a 10th grader and that 10th grader will have a place to play. Should be good for both. HS coaches can keep the kids that they feel have a good shot to play varsity and it gives the kids that are never going to see Varsity time a place to play. I think it also helps to address the numbers problems at 14 by giving a bigger pool of players. The D2 associations have been in touch with each other and are going with A and B classifications this year. At least Stillwater Mahtomedi and MV I have heard. depending on numbers I am sure FL and WBL will follow suit.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:34 pm

MN hockey changed the structure of girls hockey, so MSHSL coaches could cut a few sophomores to make room for more 7th and 8th graders on the JV team, in anticipation of the associations now being able to field both 14UA and 14UB teams?

C_R
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Post by C_R » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:39 pm

zambonidriver wrote:
goaliedad31 wrote:What is the purpose of this change? What are they trying to achieve.
I think it is to allow the high school coaches an opportunity to build their JV programs with younger players and give them the freedom to cut a 10th grader and that 10th grader will have a place to play. Should be good for both. HS coaches can keep the kids that they feel have a good shot to play varsity and it gives the kids that are never going to see Varsity time a place to play. I think it also helps to address the numbers problems at 14 by giving a bigger pool of players. The D2 associations have been in touch with each other and are going with A and B classifications this year. At least Stillwater Mahtomedi and MV I have heard. depending on numbers I am sure FL and WBL will follow suit.
Thanks for posting that zambonidriver – I have been advocating against the proposed change to 15U and you made the argument far better than I could for why this is bad policy.

The irony is that this thread started with a parent wondering whether their eighth grader should play 14U or high school. If MN Hockey changes 14U to 15U – there is the danger that it will be viewed as the place for players that “… are never going to see Varsity time …” (to use zambonidriver’s words). Likely, there will then be even more parents pushing to have their eighth graders moved up to high school (so they are viewed as Varsity “prospects”) and 15U will be held in even lower regard than 14U is today.

MN Hockey should keep taking steps to make 14U the best path for girls in 8th & 9th grade – just like Bantams for the boys (with rare exceptions). If there is an issue with sophomores who don’t make the JV team, create 16U.

observer
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Post by observer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:43 pm

Agree with CR. HS hockey is grades 10-12. U14 is grades 8 & 9. Low HS numbers means more recruiting at the youth levels is required.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:59 pm

With VERY few exceptions, its not a badge or honor to play varsity in 8th grade, it simply means your high school isn't very good or very deep at the moment. Too many people want their kid to play varsity to they can say Jenny is playing varsity.

I know many kids that play varsity and some are complete studs but most are playing at schools (big or small) that just have a talent or depth problem that particular year or every year.

Edina likely has a few players on their U14A that are better than 40 of the 8th graders playing varsity at schools all over the state. Trust me, the Edina kid will be a better player and get more D1 looks that the kid that played varsity at school X. Would you have played varsity at Edina, Minnetonka or Hill Murray? If so, you are a super stud and should be playing varsity. If not, slow your role and enjoy the ride.

Sophomores, Juniors, Seniors. These are the true varsity kids.

D1 or DIII coaches will find you and playing in 8th grade is a badge for the parents and means NOTHING for the kids future. Playing U14 and being a super star and leading the power play will be of more value than 3rd line center on varsity and sitting on the bench in critical situations.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:41 am

If the high school team has a talent or depth problem, then isn't it pretty likely the 14U team (if there is one at all) is even worse off? Are folks actually saying an 8th grader is better off skating on a really bad association team, on which there may be nobody that can keep up or catch a pass or skate backwards or... The high school practices may offer a better development opportunity - a more physical, faster-paced environment.

If an 8th grader is the 3rd line center, even on a bad high school team, it probably means she has a little size, a little speed, can handle the puck, and has a bit of a work ethic. I'm guessing that 20 of the 40 sets of parents you lumped together would much rather be living in a community that supported girls' hockey and had developed a strong, successful program, but unfortunately, due to career or family or community obligations, their daughters are not lucky enough to have been born in Edina or Minnetonka, or due to financial constraints or a belief in the public educational system, do not send their kids to Hill Murray or Blake - their 14 year old daughters strap on the responsibility of trying to grind out a couple more shifts a period, to rest the first two lines in hopes of more team success, and sometimes carry the weight of hope of a brighter future for the team. So maybe we could cut some of those parents a little slack?

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:48 am

What we a seeing is the disconnect between high schools and their feeder programs on the girls side. HS coaches don't want to invest the time, effort and emotion into the youth programs just to see them raided by the private schools which have a competitive advantage by offering smaller class sizes and opportunities that public schools just can't or won't offer. I saw it with my older girls they won the U 12 A in 05 and 2nd in 06 at u14A. While the U-12A won it again in 06. In 07 those two classes scattered and the HS coach still to this day laments the fact that if he only could have kept that crew together he would have had 3 or 4 State Championships. You can't blame the private schools either one of the ways they attract students is by having strong athletic teams. The reason I asked the question is purely developmental. Again the Northern schools are already ahead of us. Instead of fielding JV teams with younger kids they bring their 14u teams along with them on the road and the 14 u teams play the prelim game. It also allows the 14 u teams to start in October and play games and tournaments early then travel with the varsity once their season starts and still be eligible to continue on after the Varsity season ends in Feb. Ideally the question MN hockey and MSHSL have to address is the best way to keep the 8th and 9th grade girls in the game and developing.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:00 am

InigoMontoya wrote:If the high school team has a talent or depth problem, then isn't it pretty likely the 14U team (if there is one at all) is even worse off? Are folks actually saying an 8th grader is better off skating on a really bad association team, on which there may be nobody that can keep up or catch a pass or skate backwards or... The high school practices may offer a better development opportunity - a more physical, faster-paced environment.

If an 8th grader is the 3rd line center, even on a bad high school team, it probably means she has a little size, a little speed, can handle the puck, and has a bit of a work ethic. I'm guessing that 20 of the 40 sets of parents you lumped together would much rather be living in a community that supported girls' hockey and had developed a strong, successful program, but unfortunately, due to career or family or community obligations, their daughters are not lucky enough to have been born in Edina or Minnetonka, or due to financial constraints or a belief in the public educational system, do not send their kids to Hill Murray or Blake - their 14 year old daughters strap on the responsibility of trying to grind out a couple more shifts a period, to rest the first two lines in hopes of more team success, and sometimes carry the weight of hope of a brighter future for the team. So maybe we could cut some of those parents a little slack?
You make a great point. I was really just talking about the "need" for parents to have their kid play varsity early as some sort of badge. Yes, the U14 might be weak in some of those situations too. Good point.

titleist
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Post by titleist » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:16 pm

Mavs wrote:With VERY few exceptions, its not a badge or honor to play varsity in 8th grade, it simply means your high school isn't very good or very deep at the moment. Too many people want their kid to play varsity to they can say Jenny is playing varsity.

I know many kids that play varsity and some are complete studs but most are playing at schools (big or small) that just have a talent or depth problem that particular year or every year.

Edina likely has a few players on their U14A that are better than 40 of the 8th graders playing varsity at schools all over the state. Trust me, the Edina kid will be a better player and get more D1 looks that the kid that played varsity at school X. Would you have played varsity at Edina, Minnetonka or Hill Murray? If so, you are a super stud and should be playing varsity. If not, slow your role and enjoy the ride.

Sophomores, Juniors, Seniors. These are the true varsity kids.

D1 or DIII coaches will find you and playing in 8th grade is a badge for the parents and means NOTHING for the kids future. Playing U14 and being a super star and leading the power play will be of more value than 3rd line center on varsity and sitting on the bench in critical situations.


I agree with most of what you're saying except for the fact that you are assuming that the youth program said 8th grader is leaving, is a decent program. Don't you think that most parents try and weigh out what they're passing on before sending "Jenny" to varsity tryouts? I know for a fact that my daughter would not have thrived in a U14 environment in our association...in fact, she probably would have gotten worse because there wouldn't have been anyone there to push the pace...and she isn't the type to want to stick out and push the pace herself... In the end, I would rather her develop with like skilled players that push her to progress, than to be ridiculed by peers for a willingness to work hard.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:51 pm

titleist wrote:
Mavs wrote:With VERY few exceptions, its not a badge or honor to play varsity in 8th grade, it simply means your high school isn't very good or very deep at the moment. Too many people want their kid to play varsity to they can say Jenny is playing varsity.

I know many kids that play varsity and some are complete studs but most are playing at schools (big or small) that just have a talent or depth problem that particular year or every year.

Edina likely has a few players on their U14A that are better than 40 of the 8th graders playing varsity at schools all over the state. Trust me, the Edina kid will be a better player and get more D1 looks that the kid that played varsity at school X. Would you have played varsity at Edina, Minnetonka or Hill Murray? If so, you are a super stud and should be playing varsity. If not, slow your role and enjoy the ride.

Sophomores, Juniors, Seniors. These are the true varsity kids.

D1 or DIII coaches will find you and playing in 8th grade is a badge for the parents and means NOTHING for the kids future. Playing U14 and being a super star and leading the power play will be of more value than 3rd line center on varsity and sitting on the bench in critical situations.


I agree with most of what you're saying except for the fact that you are assuming that the youth program said 8th grader is leaving, is a decent program. Don't you think that most parents try and weigh out what they're passing on before sending "Jenny" to varsity tryouts? I know for a fact that my daughter would not have thrived in a U14 environment in our association...in fact, she probably would have gotten worse because there wouldn't have been anyone there to push the pace...and she isn't the type to want to stick out and push the pace herself... In the end, I would rather her develop with like skilled players that push her to progress, than to be ridiculed by peers for a willingness to work hard.
Yes, again great points. I guess I didn't think it all the way through. My comment stems from parents wanting to send Jenny to varsity just because their friends from the summer team are playing varsity...and Jenny is as good or better than said friends. Some want to move to Hill Murray because they allow 7th and 8th graders to play JV instead of their current school because its a "faster" track. To this, I say slow down.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:21 am

Much more damaging to your 8th grader than overhearing a story about a backseat makeout session, is when that line of 3 sophomores that led the JV team in all categories and supposes themselves the heirs apparent 3rd line varsity as juniors, suddenly loses one of the three amigos, supplanted by your 14 year old. She will not be welcomed with open arms.

Marty
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Post by Marty » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:19 pm

If the U14 team and JV team are from the same association - high school district, don't assume that a weak JV team does not result in an even weaker U14 team. The two often go hand in hand. Coaches are key here.

At many HS the JV and varsity are more intertwined then others. Some conferences have strong JV games ... others not so much. There is no hard written rule.

Now if you are comparing a private school JV vs local association U14 ... the differences can be varied as you move from one community to the next. Again, no one size fits all.

observer
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Post by observer » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:13 am

I know every situation is different but HS coaches generally need to keep their hands off 8th and 9th graders to fill out JV rosters. That's not the design. Parents, players and youth association leadership need to tell them you'll get them when they're in 10th grade. The HS situation is the HS situation. In almost all instances 8th and 9th graders should play U14 to be better prepared for varsity hockey tryouts as a 10th grader. That's the model everyone should be striving for.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:25 am

observer wrote:I know every situation is different but HS coaches generally need to keep their hands off 8th and 9th graders to fill out JV rosters. That's not the design. Parents, players and youth association leadership need to tell them you'll get them when they're in 10th grade. The HS situation is the HS situation. In almost all instances 8th and 9th graders should play U14 to be better prepared for varsity hockey tryouts as a 10th grader. That's the model everyone should be striving for.
Thats the way it was 10 years ago. High schools were not forced to fill their JV rosters with middle school kids. The first middle schooler was a goalie who moved from NSP to Stillwater and was the starter in 7th grade. The girl who really got the ball rolling was Hannah Brandt. I think she was the first true 8th grader to play Varsity. Also what has contributed to this has been declining numbers. If high schools had enough kids to fill out their teams 9-12 they would not need the middle schoolers. Another factor is cost about 1/4 to a half of what it costs to play association hockey. When my my older kids moved to HS and the fee was 190.00 and the booster club was 300.00 i couldn't write the check fast enough, after paying 1500.00 in fees per kid coming up.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:49 am

The group of 8th and 9th graders, eligible to play 14U last season, attending the national camp breaks down roughly:
10 - 14U
2 - 16U
2 - Bantams
31 - High school

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:16 am

A quick count of the summer camp tallied about 70 kids coming off of a high school team.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:37 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:A quick count of the summer camp tallied about 70 kids coming off of a high school team.
I wouldn't really count 9th graders, as I would expect most top end 9th graders are playing high school but thanks for the tally, its certainly interesting to see.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:26 am

Sure, which makes the 14U age group a modified 13U.

Tough sell to a kid (or parent) that moved up from 10U to 12U and had some success against the older girls, then really dominated many of the games as a 2nd year 12U, knowing that few of the older girls that made your move from 10 to 12 challenging and fun will be at 14U this year, nor will many of your peers that excelled last year at 12s.

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