It's official u14 is now u15 in Minnesota

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

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hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:40 pm

A lot of the pressure of moving the younger 7th & 8th graders is being fueled by overanxious parents, not coaches. Parents who feel the younger they make the varsity the better the chance for greater things later. Unfortunately it doesn't often work that way. Everyone has an opinion as to what the best route to succeed is but there is never only one way or "best" way for everyone. Some players are natural athletes and will rise to the top regardless. It's interesting how many highly successful athletes will say these players spend to much time playing hockey and not enough doing other sports to develop skills. Most of the best players are the best athletes, simple as that.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:50 pm

hockeywild7 wrote:A lot of the pressure of moving the younger 7th & 8th graders is being fueled by overanxious parents, not coaches. Parents who feel the younger they make the varsity the better the chance for greater things later. Unfortunately it doesn't often work that way. Everyone has an opinion as to what the best route to succeed is but there is never only one way or "best" way for everyone. Some players are natural athletes and will rise to the top regardless. It's interesting how many highly successful athletes will say these players spend to much time playing hockey and not enough doing other sports to develop skills. Most of the best players are the best athletes, simple as that.
just about everyone agrees that being a multi sport athlete is best for development overall

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:52 pm

hockeywild7 wrote:A lot of the pressure of moving the younger 7th & 8th graders is being fueled by overanxious parents, not coaches. Parents who feel the younger they make the varsity the better the chance for greater things later. Unfortunately it doesn't often work that way. Everyone has an opinion as to what the best route to succeed is but there is never only one way or "best" way for everyone. Some players are natural athletes and will rise to the top regardless. It's interesting how many highly successful athletes will say these players spend to much time playing hockey and not enough doing other sports to develop skills. Most of the best players are the best athletes, simple as that.
Parents
Finances
Time
Schedule Consistency
"Racing to the Top"
Lack of Numbers for Many High School Teams

There's a lot of pressures out there which cause middle schoolers to join the varsity in many sports, not just girls' hockey.

I agree with your last point wholeheartedly. The skater in my house has been preoccupied with soccer the past two months, yet the last 1-2 hockey scrimmages I've seen her in, I've seen speed I can only mark up to the sprinting she does on the "pitch." No doubt other sports are invaluable to the physical (and mental) improvement of these young players.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:56 pm

How many 14U teams played a 50 game season last year? How many played closer to 35? How many of those were 12-1 games?

How many hours of practice ice did those 14U teams get?

A high school team will practice considerably more hours than a typical 14U team and don't have that many fewer meaningful games.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:15 pm

Most of the best players are the best athletes, simple as that.
Most of the best players are on the ice more hours/year, also as simple as that.

This topic is oft debated, and rarely are any opinions changed. Most people will agree that a great athlete that puts in a lot of hard work on meaningful repetition has a great chance of success.

Most varsity golfers are not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that play more golf than the other kids. Most varsity swimmers not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that swim more than the other kids. Most varsity tennis players are not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that play more tennis than their classmates.

Most varsity golfers are probably not very fast runners, most varsity swimmers could probably not hit a softball, varsity tennis players may not be able to make very many free throws. Hitting a baseball (though easier to master for great athletes) is a very specific skill that improves with repetition, Hitting a golf ball (though easier...) is very specific..., swimming..., and, yes, skating, puckhandling, and shooting are very specific skills that improve with repetition.

Benfishin
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Post by Benfishin » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:17 pm

We played 47 games at U14 last year and had practices with the JV and on our own, a total of 49 practices starting in October. We had all the 8th graders in our town on the U14 team. It was the first time in our programs history that there were no 8th graders on the Varsity or JV. None of these girls would have been big time contributors to the varsity but some would have seen varsity action. It was crucial in all of the girls development to have this U14 year. I personally saw my daughter grow by leaps and bounds by having the puck on her stick and making plays. I'm convinced she would not have improved at the same level had she played varsity/jv. The focus was on skills and small area games and not systems and specialty teams. Every situation is different but it couldn't have worked out better for our girls.

hockeywild7
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Post by hockeywild7 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:02 pm

Agreed the best players are usually on the ice more, because they are the best athletes. "What genetic science is showing us is that the more important part of talent — and certainly of endurance – is the ability to respond to training, the biological setup that makes you train better than your peers. If you’re not set up that way, you can put up a heck of a lot of work, but it might be impossible to reach elite levels." Exert from a David Epstein book, "The Sports Gene". It's not how many hours you practice, it's what you get out of each hour you practice that counts. Each hour of skill progession does not move each athlete at the same pace. It's an interesting read if anyone's interested in this stuff.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:33 pm

Sorry, I thought we were talking about girls high school hockey. The very, very best female athletes in Minnesota high schools probably aren't playing hockey. But, I bet the girls that are playing hockey can outskate the very, very best athletes. When it comes to hockey, the gene comes secondary to socioeconomics and what sport the parents may have played, if any. You can be the best athlete and not even play hockey - by the time a child (or parent) even realizes she's a great athlete, she (or the parents) may not have the fortitude to fall down a lot and get passed by lesser athletes for the first 2 years of 10U or 12U, before the repetitions start to allow her athleticism to catch up to the others repetitions. I may offend some folks, but go to any summer hockey tourney and the boys at the peewee age levels look great, skate with speed, good hands, look formidable in their pads - but wait to watch what comes out of the locker room, and tell me the group of often skinny looking dorks are the best in athleticism this state has to offer - throw a ball to them, and watch them fall all over themselves trying to get out of the way. The reason there are big bucks spent on summer hockey programs is because it works - you can buy your kid onto most squirt or 10U A teams, and, in a lot of areas, the varsity team. I'm not saying there aren't great athletes playing hockey, of course there are. I am saying there are kids playing hockey that aren't great athletes, but are pretty good hockey players - not every one sport hockey player chooses to specialize, some of them just aren't athletic enough to make the football team or baseball team or volleyball team.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:55 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Sorry, I thought we were talking about girls high school hockey. The very, very best female athletes in Minnesota high schools probably aren't playing hockey. But, I bet the girls that are playing hockey can outskate the very, very best athletes. When it comes to hockey, the gene comes secondary to socioeconomics and what sport the parents may have played, if any. You can be the best athlete and not even play hockey - by the time a child (or parent) even realizes she's a great athlete, she (or the parents) may not have the fortitude to fall down a lot and get passed by lesser athletes for the first 2 years of 10U or 12U, before the repetitions start to allow her athleticism to catch up to the others repetitions. I may offend some folks, but go to any summer hockey tourney and the boys at the peewee age levels look great, skate with speed, good hands, look formidable in their pads - but wait to watch what comes out of the locker room, and tell me the group of often skinny looking dorks are the best in athleticism this state has to offer - throw a ball to them, and watch them fall all over themselves trying to get out of the way. The reason there are big bucks spent on summer hockey programs is because it works - you can buy your kid onto most squirt or 10U A teams, and, in a lot of areas, the varsity team. I'm not saying there aren't great athletes playing hockey, of course there are. I am saying there are kids playing hockey that aren't great athletes, but are pretty good hockey players - not every one sport hockey player chooses to specialize, some of them just aren't athletic enough to make the football team or baseball team or volleyball team.
Those at the top believe the kids that play multiple sports (hockey being number one likely) will be better hockey players at the end (maybe not earliest) than the ones that are hockey, hockey, hockey, only hockey.

This is with the multi sport athlete also being all in (just not all the time) on hockey. They would still train at a high level but also play soccer, lacrosse, volleyball to multi train as an athlete. Soccer and lacrosse most mirror hockey concepts. We are talking mental (thinking the game) development as much as stick handling skills. Stick handling skills can only come from working at it but the hockey IQ can be developed in other sports as well. Sprinting and running hills, etc can help your hockey game as well.

Nobody would suggest the great hockey players (multi sport) don't also train hard at hockey.

Lace'emUp
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Post by Lace'emUp » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:41 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:How many 14U teams played a 50 game season last year? How many played closer to 35? How many of those were 12-1 games?

How many hours of practice ice did those 14U teams get?

A high school team will practice considerably more hours than a typical 14U team and don't have that many fewer meaningful games.
Several 14U teams played 50 or more games. Count them up yourself on "My Hockey Rankings" site. Several others in the high 40's, and more in the low 40's. But your point is?

What's the point if the game was 12-1? Is that the definition of a non-meaningful game? It's all in the eye of the beholder. Maybe a girl got her first hat trick ever in that game, then that leads to more confidence. That's certainly meaningful! Tell me how many non-meaningful 12-1 games there were at 14U, and I will tell you that Worthington HS has about 7 games last year where one could say a mercy rule should've been applied. Then again, maybe those losses made the team stronger. Meaningful or not? You tell me.

Our HS had 54 practices listed. 14U team had 58 ice hours allotted. 12 of those hours went toward games, so that left them with 46 hours of practice time. A number those hours became shared, so they were out there practicing more than 46 hours.

With that said, please define your comment about practices hours between a high school team and a "typical" 14U team. Is that fact or your opinion?

In conclusion, it is best for most 8th graders to stay at 15U. That is my opinion. I don't know if that is yours or not (you did not say).

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:24 am

Sorry to be unclear.

Not all 14U teams play 50 games. If that is a pro for 14U over HS, it is not the case for all girls.
Some 14U teams lost a lot of games, some by a wide margin. That is a tough environment for improvement, even for a first-liner that gets a lot of shifts.
Some 14U teams are getting half (or even 1/3) of the hours of practice time the hs gets.

I'm not saying that any 8th grader should play high school hockey; I'm just saying that 14U isn't always a utopia and high school hockey isn't evil.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:34 am

Those at the top believe the kids that play multiple sports (hockey being number one likely) will be better hockey players at the end (maybe not earliest) than the ones that are hockey, hockey, hockey, only hockey.
I want to agree with you (and whomever is at the top?), but I'm skeptical. I don't have any idea whether Hannah Brandt played soccer or softball or volleyball or tennis or golf; I'd be happy to hear that she played all of them. I am confident, however, that she is a pretty good hockey player. It'd be fun if someone could list the girls headed off to play d1 this year, and the other sports they played in high school.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:57 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
Those at the top believe the kids that play multiple sports (hockey being number one likely) will be better hockey players at the end (maybe not earliest) than the ones that are hockey, hockey, hockey, only hockey.
I want to agree with you (and whomever is at the top?), but I'm skeptical. I don't have any idea whether Hannah Brandt played soccer or softball or volleyball or tennis or golf; I'd be happy to hear that she played all of them. I am confident, however, that she is a pretty good hockey player. It'd be fun if someone could list the girls headed off to play d1 this year, and the other sports they played in high school.
Brandt played soccer and was in crew, I believe.

Kelly Pannek was all state in soccer.

The Aney girls, as we know, as phenomenal tennis players.

Flug played Lacrosse.

Lee Stecklein earned 16 letters in high school - hockey, soccer, lacrosse, tennis and academics.

My daughter's AAA teams are about 100% in multi-sport participation (they're rising 6th and 7th graders). Soccer and lacrosse are by far the most popular, with swimming and softball also options.

That's off the top of my head.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:05 am

Wow, those girls played in about 10 hockey tournaments and also played lacrosse or soccer? That is impressive.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:21 am

InigoMontoya wrote:Wow, those girls played in about 10 hockey tournaments and also played lacrosse or soccer? That is impressive.
There are 25 weekends in the spring/summer season : ) They might be underbooked by only playing 10 tourneys.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 am

Most varsity golfers are not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that play more golf than the other kids. Most varsity swimmers not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that swim more than the other kids. Most varsity tennis players are not the best athletes at their schools; they are the kids that play more tennis than their classmates.
I beg to differ as the golf coach I have very often had the best athlete in our school as a golfer and so has ou boy's and girls tennis coach.
I tried to get Hannah brandt to play football she was that good of an athlete.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:45 am

My daughter's AAA teams are about 100% in multi-sport participation (they're rising 6th and 7th graders). Soccer and lacrosse are by far the most popular, with swimming and softball also options.
I'll bet if you look at any of the triple aaa programs you will see a majority of multi-sport athlete's. Lacrosse is really taking off. Don't forget about fastpitch either

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