02 Os (formerly machine orange 02) played 01/02 Os today....

Discussion of Minnesota Girls Youth Hockey

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zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Tue May 03, 2016 1:47 pm

At HP Spring Festival:

D3- 02 Os girls accounted for 22% of the roster and 55% of the offensive prodcution (G and A)
D5- 11% of the roster, 20% of the production
D6- 50% of the roster, 48% of the production
D8- 11% of the roster, 25% of the production
D10- 17% of the roster, 18% of the production

At MN Selects/St. Cloud:

South- 60% of the roster, 81% of the production
West- 67% of the roster, 77% of the production
East- 13% of the roster, 25% of the production

Districts and regions omitted simply means there were no 02 Os girls on that roster. As you can see, ZD, with the exception of D6 at HP the 02 Os girls contributed at a higher rate than the non 02 Os girls at the festivals that you have watched...and watched...and watched and have come to conclude that when taken out of the 02 Os systems they are no better than anyone else.

HD that spread sheet must be huge!!
If you break down the numbers you have how many of the girls in these festival were playing with fellow Elite teammates.
Selects and West seemed to be majority 02's so throw them out.
East in Selects 1 goal
HP your numbers support my argument.
Including D6
The games in Duluth were all close no blowouts.
Selects were loaded.
I love you Sabermetrics
Last edited by zambonidriver on Tue May 03, 2016 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Tue May 03, 2016 1:50 pm

My point exactly Mavs. You can throw stats out all you want. My original question has not been answered exactly how much extra do the elite families pay on top of Winny's fee? To do what they do you have to practice a least 5 days a week.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Tue May 03, 2016 1:56 pm

My question is how many of these kids are true impact players along the lines of a Norby, or Wethington, or Snodgrass before we annoit let's let them develop.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue May 03, 2016 2:41 pm

I'm sure this will taken as disparaging, or passive aggressive:
If HD's post illustrates that said girls performed better than the other girls in all the districts other than D6, doesn't that necessarily extrapolate to, the other 9 skaters on the D6 roster performed slightly better than said girls?

HockeyDude20
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Post by HockeyDude20 » Tue May 03, 2016 2:42 pm

zambonidriver wrote:At HP Spring Festival:

D3- 02 Os girls accounted for 22% of the roster and 55% of the offensive prodcution (G and A)
D5- 11% of the roster, 20% of the production
D6- 50% of the roster, 48% of the production
D8- 11% of the roster, 25% of the production
D10- 17% of the roster, 18% of the production

At MN Selects/St. Cloud:

South- 60% of the roster, 81% of the production
West- 67% of the roster, 77% of the production
East- 13% of the roster, 25% of the production

Districts and regions omitted simply means there were no 02 Os girls on that roster. As you can see, ZD, with the exception of D6 at HP the 02 Os girls contributed at a higher rate than the non 02 Os girls at the festivals that you have watched...and watched...and watched and have come to conclude that when taken out of the 02 Os systems they are no better than anyone else.

HD that spread sheet must be huge!!
If you break down the numbers you have how many of the girls in these festival were playing with fellow Elite teammates.
Selects and West seemed to be majority 02's so throw them out.
East in Selects 1 goal
HP your numbers support my argument.
Including D6
The games in Duluth were all close no blowouts.
Selects were loaded.
I love you Sabermetrics
ZD, your point was that you take the girls off the 02 Os team and out of the system based environment and put them in a festival situation they are no better than the girl who does not play on the 02 Os team.That they are equal performers. At HP as a whole the 02 Os girls represented 22% of the rosters of the districts they represented but accounted for 39% of the production. At Mn Selects it was 47% of the roster and 70% of the production on the whole. It doesn't support your argument. To support your position the production % would have to be equal or less than the roster %.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WOHN3IqM8

HockeyDude20
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Post by HockeyDude20 » Tue May 03, 2016 3:11 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:I'm sure this will taken as disparaging, or passive aggressive:
If HD's post illustrates that said girls performed better than the other girls in all the districts other than D6, doesn't that necessarily extrapolate to, the other 9 skaters on the D6 roster performed slightly better than said girls?
Not disparaging at all and quite true. The facts are what they are. My daughter is on the D6 team for crying out loud. It just so happens that the non 02 Os girls on the D6 roster performed better than the 02 Os girls that weekend. D6 had a deeper roster therefore more girls contributing at a higher rate vs the other districts. The depth of D6 is further evidenced by the fact D6 is the only team that did not lose a game and out shot D16 56-12, D2 41-21, and D10 48-20. All close games though, right ZD?! LOL.

massalsa
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Post by massalsa » Tue May 03, 2016 4:50 pm

zambonidriver wrote:My question is how many of these kids are true impact players along the lines of a Norby, or Wethington, or Snodgrass before we annoit let's let them develop.
I can think of at least 3 that very well could be. It is really hard to know the players specifically when nearly every game I have seen them play they have jerseys without a number on them!

Big statement here...(its my OPINION!!!).

3 of the class of 2020 Ms. Hockey candidates (out of 10) will be from this group. Remember most of these girls will be back half of their 2020 class age wise. Would guess that 25% of the class of 2020 are 2001's.

Don't know the goalies good enough to speculate.

Mavs
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Post by Mavs » Tue May 03, 2016 9:15 pm

massalsa wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:My question is how many of these kids are true impact players along the lines of a Norby, or Wethington, or Snodgrass before we annoit let's let them develop.
I can think of at least 3 that very well could be. It is really hard to know the players specifically when nearly every game I have seen them play they have jerseys without a number on them!

Big statement here...(its my OPINION!!!).

3 of the class of 2020 Ms. Hockey candidates (out of 10) will be from this group. Remember most of these girls will be back half of their 2020 class age wise. Would guess that 25% of the class of 2020 are 2001's.

Don't know the goalies good enough to speculate.
This team missed out on 70% of the Ms. Hockey Finalists? What happened? :wink:

NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
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Post by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY » Wed May 04, 2016 8:35 am

Mavs wrote:
massalsa wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:My question is how many of these kids are true impact players along the lines of a Norby, or Wethington, or Snodgrass before we annoit let's let them develop.
I can think of at least 3 that very well could be. It is really hard to know the players specifically when nearly every game I have seen them play they have jerseys without a number on them!

Big statement here...(its my OPINION!!!).

3 of the class of 2020 Ms. Hockey candidates (out of 10) will be from this group. Remember most of these girls will be back half of their 2020 class age wise. Would guess that 25% of the class of 2020 are 2001's.

Don't know the goalies good enough to speculate.
This team missed out on 70% of the Ms. Hockey Finalists? What happened? :wink:
I know, I am with ya! The message within this post has changed so many times, it is hard to follow. However, if a person sifts through all the passive aggressive and then right in your face posts, it really is pretty easy to figure out. It boils down to this; it is the system that makes the player and not the player executing the system. You do not have to be skilled to execute a system. It is not like these systems are free either, so you better have some deep pockets and be ready to pay up. I mean, let's be honest, who really knew a good forecheck would work? Just that alone, was certainly worth the extra cost over and above the OS fee.

I think MASSALSA was being optimistic or polite with 30%. IMO, I don't think any will be considered. Why you may ask? When they go back to their HS team, they will not be playing within the proper system and in turn, look just like any other player.

I am surprised HS coaches haven't noticed and figured it out. They should abandon their youth and STP programs and spend the off season studying systems.
Last edited by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY on Wed May 04, 2016 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Wed May 04, 2016 8:37 am

HD, you side stepped my question again. I know what you pay for Winny's program. What do you guys pay on top of that fee? For arguments sake say the 01/02's would invest the same money and time would they be able to compete with the 02's? Watching the HP festival the games were pretty close The northern squads had huge disadvantage because of travel. If you look at twin cities districts a bounce here or there and you have different teams at the top. That was how close the games were. Salsa would love your prediction of the top 2020 MS hockey finalists off the 02's My guess Malone, Nicholson, after that are they not all pretty close?

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Wed May 04, 2016 9:26 am

zambonidriver wrote:HD, you side stepped my question again. I know what you pay for Winny's program. What do you guys pay on top of that fee? For arguments sake say the 01/02's would invest the same money and time would they be able to compete with the 02's? Watching the HP festival the games were pretty close The northern squads had huge disadvantage because of travel. If you look at twin cities districts a bounce here or there and you have different teams at the top. That was how close the games were. Salsa would love your prediction of the top 2020 MS hockey finalists off the 02's My guess Malone, Nicholson, after that are they not all pretty close?
Money isn't an issue. If you're worried the 02 Elite Selects have a superior system to the 01/02 Selects, have the girls go to the Roseville Skate Park every day this summer and work systems on their roller blades. It's free!

massalsa
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Post by massalsa » Wed May 04, 2016 10:12 am

ZD. I do not know all the girls but here are a couple that I have heard about and seen. I feel stronger about some more than others but do not want to necessarily rank them. The underlined is a 2021 or 2022 candidate.

I also think that there are a couple of candidates on the 01/02 Os and also 2 class of 2020 kids that have shown themselves to be viable long term candidates on the JWCD (2001 8th graders).

HockeyDude20 wrote:Here is what the 02 OsMachine team looks like for the upcoming season:

1. Albrecht, Lakeville South 12UA 2. Bayless, Tonka 15UA Black 3. Bourgerie, NWC 15UA 4. Bowlby, Edina Green 15A 5. Chorske, Edina Green 12A 6. Fisher, Lakeville North JV 7. Guilday, Tonka Black 12A 8. Habisch, Buffalo Black 15A 9. Hackley, Wayzata Blue 15A 10. Halverson, Edina Green 12A 11. G. HEndrickson, Edina Green 12A 12. L. Hendrickson, Edina Green 12A 13. T. Jungels, Edina Green 15A 14. V. Jungels, Edina Green 12A 15. Langseth, EP Varsity 16. Lemke, NWC 15A 17. Little, Andover 15A 18. Malone, Armstrong Varsity 19. Maloney, Lakeville South Varsity 20. Martin, Tonka Black 15A 21. Martinson, Apple Valley Varsity 22. McNeil, Shakopee 12A 23. Melz, Tonka Black 15A 24. Nicholson, Tonka Black 15A 25. Parent, Choice League 26. Qualley, Andover 15A 27. Skelton, Cambridge Varsity 28. Swingle, St. Cloud Varsity 29. Urban, Wayzata Blue 15A 30. Ziemer, Chaska/Chan 12A.

30 skaters. Goalies are Gilgosch from Centennial, LaRose from NWC, and Spring from Chicago area.

massalsa
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Post by massalsa » Wed May 04, 2016 10:17 am

zambonidriver wrote:HD, you side stepped my question again. I know what you pay for Winny's program. What do you guys pay on top of that fee? For arguments sake say the 01/02's would invest the same money and time would they be able to compete with the 02's? Watching the HP festival the games were pretty close The northern squads had huge disadvantage because of travel. If you look at twin cities districts a bounce here or there and you have different teams at the top. That was how close the games were.
Obviously they pay more for the tournaments along with travel. I would guess (PURE SPECULATION) that the coaches do it for free or next to nothing. I have no idea how much ice they get and have to pay for.

I am 100% convinced that the relentless forecheck and disciplined shifts (I would not necessarily call that a system but whatever) along with some above average and some WAY above average girls is a big part of their success.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Wed May 04, 2016 10:22 am

Isn't Forecheck and disciplined shifts part of a system?

massalsa
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Post by massalsa » Wed May 04, 2016 11:02 am

zambonidriver wrote:Isn't Forecheck and disciplined shifts part of a system?
I have no idea if it is part of a system they might do. These kids have played enough hockey (virtually all 00/01/02/03 higher level kids) that a coach should be able to tell a forwards to pressure the D in their D-zone and back check like a beast once the puck is past them and they should be able to do that.

I have no idea why any team would not do this if they have the personnel to understand and do it well most of the time.

Regarding the disciplined shifts as a system? Thats just good hockey and coaching. The kids will stay out as long as they can most of the time at the younger ages and IMO it is to the detriment of many teams.

Hansonbrother
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Post by Hansonbrother » Wed May 04, 2016 11:23 am

zambonidriver wrote:Isn't Forecheck and disciplined shifts part of a system?
Isn't "Read and React" a system as well?? I think most of hockey these days is kids just being instinctive and moving to spaces that are open...Systems are structured plays...most often special teams play. And these might be the only systems played that you'll see all summer long, if any... a PP or a PK....
alright, maybe the occasional faceoff play where a defenseman rings the boards on a clean draw...but that's it.

Most youth teams don't run a neutral ice trap, at least I haven't seen any doing it. Worst youth system that I've seen is a five man box....also known as a damage control system where the coach obviously knew his team had no chance to win and wanted to try and keep the goals to a minimum.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Wed May 04, 2016 11:45 am

Maybe I am not up to date on systems. I thought F1 body F2 on the puck F3 high was a system and wings covering d with center down low in the dzone was a system and breaking out was part of a system a long with cycling and scissor plays. All things the 02 team does extremely well which granted I know very little about coaching hockey to me takes a lot of practice to execute as well as they do at a such a young age. I have seen a lot of pond hockey and I don't remember pond hockey being so structured. Again what comes first Players (chicken) or System (egg) The 02's execute their system better than any team their age. That leads to lots of wins. There is always a trade off to be a successful as we all agree they are. They need players that are all the same. Again who is the player on that team that can move onto another team and make the players on that team better. They have maybe two summers together before they start to filter to other OS teams.

HockeyDude20
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Post by HockeyDude20 » Wed May 04, 2016 11:54 am

zambonidriver wrote:HD, you side stepped my question again. I know what you pay for Winny's program. What do you guys pay on top of that fee? For arguments sake say the 01/02's would invest the same money and time would they be able to compete with the 02's? Watching the HP festival the games were pretty close The northern squads had huge disadvantage because of travel. If you look at twin cities districts a bounce here or there and you have different teams at the top. That was how close the games were. Salsa would love your prediction of the top 2020 MS hockey finalists off the 02's My guess Malone, Nicholson, after that are they not all pretty close?
I have been sidestepping your question. The reason being that if I disclosed what it cost each skater and what they got for their money you would not be happy. Feel free to keep asking, though.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Wed May 04, 2016 12:01 pm

Actually I paid more than you did and am very happy with the return on money. I was curious about the additional fees for practice time and tournaments. If your practice schedule is anything like it was with MM it is quite time consuming and expensive. I know that Winny has a set amount of ice for her developmental teams and if teams want additional ice they have to pay for it themselves. I know how hectic the spring time is just wondering how you guys do it.

jg2112
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Post by jg2112 » Wed May 04, 2016 12:25 pm

zambonidriver wrote:Again who is the player on that team that can move onto another team and make the players on that team better.
This is a red herring. Based on this logic, Connor McDavid is not a good player.

The Edina girls on the 02 team made the Edina U12A team look pretty darn good this year.

The Tonka U15A players led their team to a 35-12 record. That's pretty good.

NWC U15A went to state.

Andover U12A went to state in 2014-15 with one of those 02 players.

This argument is weird.

NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
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Post by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY » Wed May 04, 2016 2:25 pm

jg2112 wrote:
zambonidriver wrote:Again who is the player on that team that can move onto another team and make the players on that team better.
This is a red herring. Based on this logic, Connor McDavid is not a good player.

The Edina girls on the 02 team made the Edina U12A team look pretty darn good this year.

The Tonka U15A players led their team to a 35-12 record. That's pretty good.

NWC U15A went to state.

Andover U12A went to state in 2014-15 with one of those 02 players.

This argument is weird.
I think this analogy right here, is where it started getting weird. ZD must be into the Cinnamon again.

"Again what comes first Players (chicken) or System (egg)".

HockeyDude20
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Post by HockeyDude20 » Wed May 04, 2016 2:51 pm

zambonidriver wrote:Actually I paid more than you did and am very happy with the return on money. I was curious about the additional fees for practice time and tournaments. If your practice schedule is anything like it was with MM it is quite time consuming and expensive. I know that Winny has a set amount of ice for her developmental teams and if teams want additional ice they have to pay for it themselves. I know how hectic the spring time is just wondering how you guys do it.
I added another tab to my spreadsheet!! if you divide the total cost by the cumulative number of hours (practice ice, games, futures, dry land via the 8 week program, etc...) it works out to about $16 per hour. That does not include travel expenses. Pretty good value. All coaches are unpaid.

NORTHWOODS HOCKEY
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Post by NORTHWOODS HOCKEY » Wed May 04, 2016 3:19 pm

zambonidriver wrote: Again who is the player on that team that can move onto another team and make the players on that team better.


Below are the only players from the 02's that I could come up with that could jump on another team and make the players around them better.


1. Albrecht, Lakeville South 12UA 2. Bayless, Tonka 15UA Black 3. Bourgerie, NWC 15UA 4. Bowlby, Edina Green 15A 5. Chorske, Edina Green 12A 6. Fisher, Lakeville North JV 7. Guilday, Tonka Black 12A 8. Habisch, Buffalo Black 15A 9. Hackley, Wayzata Blue 15A 10. Halverson, Edina Green 12A 11. G. HEndrickson, Edina Green 12A 12. L. Hendrickson, Edina Green 12A 13. T. Jungels, Edina Green 15A 14. V. Jungels, Edina Green 12A 15. Langseth, EP Varsity 16. Lemke, NWC 15A 17. Little, Andover 15A 18. Malone, Armstrong Varsity 19. Maloney, Lakeville South Varsity 20. Martin, Tonka Black 15A 21. Martinson, Apple Valley Varsity 22. McNeil, Shakopee 12A 23. Melz, Tonka Black 15A 24. Nicholson, Tonka Black 15A 25. Parent, Choice League 26. Qualley, Andover 15A 27. Skelton, Cambridge Varsity 28. Swingle, St. Cloud Varsity 29. Urban, Wayzata Blue 15A 30. Ziemer, Chaska/Chan 12A.

30 skaters. Goalies are Gilgosch from Centennial, LaRose from NWC, and Spring from Chicago area.

observer
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Post by observer » Wed May 04, 2016 3:26 pm

A team has 15-17 skaters and should be a single birth year.

zambonidriver
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Post by zambonidriver » Thu May 05, 2016 9:07 am

Actually it is milfoil and it is unbelievable \:D/

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