Class A Rankings 2-10-13

[HShockeywatcher]

One week to go in the regular season!

This was an interesting week. The top two are clear, but there another 5 or 6 teams who have a legitimate case to be made for the 3 seed. Despite no explanation of why, over half of those polled said they didn’t think TRF is a top 5 team and over 70% said not top 4. It seemed Hermantown would round out the top 3, but I couldn’t justify Cathedral behind them who started their current win streak with a win over Hermantown. Then having Lourdes so far behind Cathedral didn’t seem right, as their only Class A losses are to the teams currently ranked above them. After that, it all fell into place.

The top 10 are definite, then there are two teams in limbo who deserve to be ranked and not anyone else that really falls in behind them definitively so I round it out at 12 and mentioned a handful of teams.

1. [1] Saint Thomas Academy (19-2-2)
The Cadets stumbled with a tie to Tartan then racked up many points against Simley. They will likely pick up two wins and some more playing time for the backup goalie this week.
This week: Tues @ Richfield, Thurs vs Henry Sibley

2. [2] Breck (18-3-1)
The Mustangs picked up a close win over Holy Angels this past week. They finish the season with 3 home games. Tuesday’s game with Holy Family should be close and Thursday’s game with St Paul Academy will be close if it was anything like the first meeting.
This week: Tues vs Holy Family Catholic, Thurs vs St Paul Academy, Sat vs Blake

3. [9] Rochester Lourdes (16-7)
The Eagles secured their spot atop Section 1A with a 4-1 win over a New Prague team they beat in OT earlier. This week they will be tested quite well hosting Prior Lake on Thursday and traveling to Minneapolis Saturday to show whether this is too high or not. It’d be interesting to see how things go if Hermantown gets out of 5A and they have no games with 8A teams, but with their only Class A losses being to St Thomas and Breck and a win over Cathedral, there is a good case that can be made for the third seed at state.
This week: Thurs vs Prior Lake, Sat @ #11 Totino-Grace

4. [11] St. Cloud Cathedral (17-6)
The Crusaders started off the week solidifying themselves as the top seed in 5A and followed that up by shutting out Little Falls. Not likely the 2 seed, but it’ll be interesting to see how seeding at state goes as they are one of two Class A teams to beat Breck but also have losses to Lourdes and East Grand Forks/Warroad. If Thief River Falls and Mankato West make it maybe they’d get the 2 seed…
This week: Tues vs Rogers, Sat vs Duluth Marshall

5. [5] Hermantown (19-4-1)
With 3 skaters with more than 50 points, the Hawks’ top line is one of the best in the state. The team is tied for second in state in scoring. They are likely the second seed in 5A but seeing as how their loss to Cathedral was in OT; it will be a great game in Champlin Park with Cathedral if it happens.
This week: Fri @ Hibbing

6. [3] Thief River Falls {15-8}
The Prowlers lost again to Roseau but picked up a win over Moorhead. The winner of this Tuesday’s game against East Grand Forks will get to walk to the section final, while the loser will have to play Warroad to make it. With their recent stretch of victories, this team would likely be seeded were they to make it to state for the third year in a row, but there are two very capable teams who will do everything they can to stop that from happening.
This week: Tues vs #7 East Grand Forks, Fri @ Bemidji

7. [6] East Grand Forks (17-2-3)
The Green Wave picked up an easy win following their tie to Warroad the previous week. They fell out of the top 3 with their home loss to Thief River Falls. Their game this week in Thief River Falls will decide the top seed in the section and possibly bump them a few spots in the ranking if they are to win.
This week: Tues @ #6 Thief River Falls, Thurs @ Roseau

8. [4] Duluth Denfeld (15-7)
The Hunters got handled by Hermantown this past week; shots were very similar to the first meeting but the goalie play was reversed. Denfeld will likely pick up a win and a loss this week to prepare for section play where they will be the top seed in 7A.
This week: Tues @ Grand Rapids, Fri @ Proctor

9. [7] Warroad (16-6-2)
The Warriors recently tied East Grand Forks, which took away any chance of a top 2 seed in the section, but they will be the 3 seed. Having won in Thief River Falls and tied Warroad, it would be silly to count them out for a trip to St Paul, but they definitely aren’t favored.
This week: Tues vs Lake of the Woods

10. [14] Mahtomedi (14-9)
The Zephyrs earned the 2 seed in 4A with a win over Totino-Grace. Since December they have only played one non-conference game and only have losses to St Thomas, Hill-Murray and Tartan and went to OT early in the season at Breck. It would be interesting to see what would’ve happened in a game with some of the teams above them. They will know Tuesday night whether their game with Tartan will be for 3rd place in the conference or not.
This week: Tues @ South St Paul, Thurs @ Tartan

11. [8] Totino-Grace (18-5-1)
Beyond their game one win over the #6 team and game 2 tie with the #7 team, the best team the Eagles have beaten is Marshall. It would make sense for them to pursue an independent schedule in hockey has Benilde did this year as 12 of their 26 games this year are against conference teams and they easily won 10 of them (one still to be played). They have 3 good games this week.
This week: Tues @ Benilde-St Margaret’s, Thurs @ Chisago Lakes Area, Sat vs Rochester Lourdes

12. [12] Duluth Marshall (11-11)
The Preseason #4 team in Class A has lost to all the good teams they’ve played. They play two good away games this week in preparation for a likely section final that will hopefully be a little closer than the first meeting with Denfeld.
This week: Tues vs Greenway/Nash-Kee, Thurs @ Cloquet-Esko-Carlton, Sat @ St Cloud Cathedral


Notable Teams:

Delano (12-10-1)
The Tigers’ three section losses on the season are by 2 goals to Breck and twice by a score of 5-4, one in OT, to Mound-Westonka. Most likely the third seed as they also have a win over Providence but no one would be surprised to see them in the final and they would likely make that a good game.
This week: Tues vs Litchfield/Dassel-Cokato, Fri @ Hutchinson

[15] Little Falls (17-6)
The Flyers will be the top seed in their section and the only team anyone would take to win the 6A title this year. Although it is unlikely they play more than 2 games at state, they do have one of the best goalies in the state, possibly the best who will be in the Class A tournament, so anything is possible for them. They also have 2 skaters with 30 points and 6 with 20 points, so they will be able to score given the opportunity.
This week: Tues @ Sartell-St Stephen, Thurs @ Detroit Lakes

Luverne (20-3-1)
The Cardinals are the leading scoring team in the state and will likely end the season tied with 3 or 4 other teams for the 2nd most wins in the state. Nothing is for sure as New Ulm could get the top seed in the section with no section losses this season, but if anyone is going to stop them from winning their 4th straight section title, it would seem Luverne to be the team to do it.
This week: Fri @ Minnehaha

Mankato West (19-4)
The Scarlets are one of the few teams Luverne will likely be tied with that have 21 wins. With a 1 goal loss in Rochester to Lourdes, making it to St Paul is a very real possibility for Mankato West. Junior Derek Frentz is 10th in the state in points and 8th in goals. While they don’t have the toughest schedule, they also don’t have just a couple guys getting their goals; 3 over 40 points, 6 over 20 points and 11 with more than 10 points. Additionally, they only have 3 seniors on their roster, only 2 with more than 10 points, and neither of their goalies are seniors. Hopefully for the benefit of the team they can schedule some better competition next year; predicting them as the top seed in what will likely be section 1A next year seems to make sense.
This week: Tues @ Owatonna, Sat @ Faribault

Mound-Westonka (14-9)
The White Hawks have played some teams very well this season, including notching a win over Holy Family this past week. If it wasn’t for their loss to Orono, they’d have a share of the conference title. They will likely get the 2 seed in 2A but will need to beat a Delano team they beat 5-4 twice to have a shot at Breck.
This week: Tues @ Hutchinson, Fri vs Waconia

[10] Princeton (17-5-1)
The Tigers got beat pretty badly this week by Cathedral and, despite their early win over the Crusaders, will likely be the 3 seed in 5A. They are 5th in scoring in the state and have 7 shut outs this season, including 4 in their last 7 games. While the odds aren’t in their favor, it would not be impossible for them to make it to the X.
This week: Tues @ Becker, Thurs @ Mora

St Paul Academy (16-7)
After starting the season 6-6, the Spartans are 10-1 in their last 11 games. While a win isn’t likely on Thursday, another close game with Breck is. It’s hard to see them ranked beyond the 4 seed in section 4A, so a game with St Thomas is likely to happen. Like Mankato West, they have a young roster, with only 1 senior in their top 6 in points and only 5 seniors on the roster. With such a young team, a new coach and St Thomas going to AA, it will be interesting to see how well they do in the years to come.
This week: Tues @ Dodge County, Thurs @ Breck

[northern_guy]

With some minor section realignment class A would be an interesting state tourney but 2 sections always have the potential of really embarrassing class A (sections 3 and 6). There are some good teams in this top 10 though.

[HawkyFan9]

I believe Orono definitely deserves a mention over Luverne. Orono is a very tough team to beat

[GordonBombay99]

With some minor section realignment class A would be an interesting state tourney but 2 sections always have the potential of really embarrassing class A (sections 3 and 6). There are some good teams in this top 10 though.

What do you propose they change to make 3 and 6 better?

[northern_guy]

With some minor section realignment class A would be an interesting state tourney but 2 sections always have the potential of really embarrassing class A (sections 3 and 6). There are some good teams in this top 10 though.

What do you propose they change to make 3 and 6 better?

You know what I am thinking already but I will take the bait. With cathedral in 6a it makes sense geographically (a true central mn section) and we can make sure little falls has adequate competition in the section year in and year out otherwise this is a historically weak section at state other than hanowskis senior year. I believe we should also make sure 3 northern teams are represented at state. If scc makes it in the current section there can only be a max of 2....1 from north west and one from north east. 3 from the north will make for a more exciting tourney with st. Thomas opting up next year.

[GordonBombay99]

With some minor section realignment class A would be an interesting state tourney but 2 sections always have the potential of really embarrassing class A (sections 3 and 6). There are some good teams in this top 10 though.

What do you propose they change to make 3 and 6 better?

You know what I am thinking already but I will take the bait. With cathedral in 6a it makes sense geographically (a true central mn section) and we can make sure little falls has adequate competition in the section year in and year out otherwise this is a historically weak section at state other than hanowskis senior year. I believe we should also make sure 3 northern teams are represented at state. If scc makes it in the current section there can only be a max of 2....1 from north west and one from north east. 3 from the north will make for a more exciting tourney with st. Thomas opting up next year.

For once I actually agree with you, it makes sense geographically to move Sauk Rapids and St Cloud Cathedral, you have the Sy Cloud area represented, can the move Fergus to 8A and maybe Wilmar into 3A, either wa 3A is going to be a soft section unfortunately.

[northern_guy]

I have no clue how to fix section 3 as I don't pay much attention to it but I feel sorry for a 3a team facing STA at state. I just know I would like to see a section with any central mn team at state whether it's scc, Apollo, sartell, or Sauk rapids. Frankly I have grown quite tired of alexandria and little falls at state every year. Hell it makes more sense to have Lille falls with Hermantown geographically but I agree about ferguson falls moving to 8a. They belong with the northern section as they are closer to Fargo than st. Cloud.

[northern_guy]

How does cathedral move from #11 to #4 just by beating an average #15 little falls? This makes no sense and and these are pretty wild fluctuations you will not see in any poll anywhere. Or are you admitting your last week rankings were just that messed up?

[Mite-dad]

What do you propose they change to make 3 and 6 better?

You know what I am thinking already but I will take the bait. With cathedral in 6a it makes sense geographically (a true central mn section) and we can make sure little falls has adequate competition in the section year in and year out otherwise this is a historically weak section at state other than hanowskis senior year. I believe we should also make sure 3 northern teams are represented at state. If scc makes it in the current section there can only be a max of 2....1 from north west and one from north east. 3 from the north will make for a more exciting tourney with st. Thomas opting up next year.

For once I actually agree with you, it makes sense geographically to move Sauk Rapids and St Cloud Cathedral, you have the Sy Cloud area represented, can the move Fergus to 8A and maybe Wilmar into 3A, either wa 3A is going to be a soft section unfortunately.

Yes. And his beloved Crusaders would no doubt make it to state 90% of the time. Good way to make sure the single A tourney has even more private school domination.

[GordonBombay99]

I have no clue how to fix section 3 as I don't pay much attention to it but I feel sorry for a 3a team facing STA at state. I just know I would like to see a section with any central mn team at state whether it's scc, Apollo, sartell, or Sauk rapids. Frankly I have grown quite tired of alexandria and little falls at state every year. Hell it makes more sense to have Lille falls with Hermantown geographically but I agree about ferguson falls moving to 8a. They belong with the northern section as they are closer to Fargo than st. Cloud.

Im not sure 3A can be fixed unless some teams are forced to trave a bit more to add a Breck or Orono or something like that.

[northern_guy]

You know what I am thinking already but I will take the bait. With cathedral in 6a it makes sense geographically (a true central mn section) and we can make sure little falls has adequate competition in the section year in and year out otherwise this is a historically weak section at state other than hanowskis senior year. I believe we should also make sure 3 northern teams are represented at state. If scc makes it in the current section there can only be a max of 2....1 from north west and one from north east. 3 from the north will make for a more exciting tourney with st. Thomas opting up next year.

For once I actually agree with you, it makes sense geographically to move Sauk Rapids and St Cloud Cathedral, you have the Sy Cloud area represented, can the move Fergus to 8A and maybe Wilmar into 3A, either wa 3A is going to be a soft section unfortunately.

Yes. And his beloved Crusaders would no doubt make it to state 90% of the time. Good way to make sure the single A tourney has even more private school domination.

Don't be sour your little falls team will never compete at state without a reincarnation of Ben hanowski. I hope to god Apollo knocks off little falls like the big upset 2 years back. Mite dad you just proved my point that 6a is a weak section if you said cathedral would make it to state 9 out of 10 years. I believe little falls and cathedral split the two games they played last year. God forbid your beloved flyers have competition. You are wrong on this mite dad and anyone with an ounce of high school hockey knowledge or common sense would agree

[BobSaget]

For quite possibly the first time ever, I have to agree with Northern_guy on this one.

SCC should be in a section with Apollo, Sartell, etc.

However, it won't ever happen no matter how much sense is made of it.

[tweisguy]

For once I actually agree with you, it makes sense geographically to move Sauk Rapids and St Cloud Cathedral, you have the Sy Cloud area represented, can the move Fergus to 8A and maybe Wilmar into 3A, either wa 3A is going to be a soft section unfortunately.

Yes. And his beloved Crusaders would no doubt make it to state 90% of the time. Good way to make sure the single A tourney has even more private school domination.

Don't be sour your little falls team will never compete at state without a reincarnation of Ben hanowski. I hope to god Apollo knocks off little falls like the big upset 2 years back. Mite dad you just proved my point that 6a is a weak section if you said cathedral would make it to state 9 out of 10 years. I believe limitless falls and cathedral split the two games they played last year. God forbid your beloved flyers have competition. You are wrong on this mite dad and anyone with an ounce of high school hockey knowledge or common sense would agree

Cathedral actually beat Little falls twice last year (4-3 at Little falls and 6-1 at St. Cloud) they haven't lost to little falls since 2009, Hanowski's senior year in the third place game at state.

[northern_guy]

Yes. And his beloved Crusaders would no doubt make it to state 90% of the time. Good way to make sure the single A tourney has even more private school domination.

Don't be sour your little falls team will never compete at state without a reincarnation of Ben hanowski. I hope to god Apollo knocks off little falls like the big upset 2 years back. Mite dad you just proved my point that 6a is a weak section if you said cathedral would make it to state 9 out of 10 years. I believe limitless falls and cathedral split the two games they played last year. God forbid your beloved flyers have competition. You are wrong on this mite dad and anyone with an ounce of high school hockey knowledge or common sense would agree

Cathedral actually beat Little falls twice last year (4-3 at Little falls and 6-1 at St. Cloud) they haven't lost to little falls since 2009, Hanowski's senior year in the third place game at state.

. Hmmmm....not sure I believe you. They have not gone undefeated against them since 09?....that sounds like a stretch. Can anyone else confirm this? Not sure where to google this

[tweisguy]

Don't be sour your little falls team will never compete at state without a reincarnation of Ben hanowski. I hope to god Apollo knocks off little falls like the big upset 2 years back. Mite dad you just proved my point that 6a is a weak section if you said cathedral would make it to state 9 out of 10 years. I believe limitless falls and cathedral split the two games they played last year. God forbid your beloved flyers have competition. You are wrong on this mite dad and anyone with an ounce of high school hockey knowledge or common sense would agree

Cathedral actually beat Little falls twice last year (4-3 at Little falls and 6-1 at St. Cloud) they haven't lost to little falls since 2009, Hanowski's senior year in the third place game at state.

. Hmmmm....not sure I believe you. They have not gone undefeated against them since 09....that sounds like a stretch.

My apologies they've beat Cathedral once since then..
2010 - Cathedral 2-0 (St. Cloud MAC)
2011 - Little Falls 2-1 OT (Exchange Arena)
2012 - Cathedral 4-3 (Exchange Arena)
2012 - Cathedral 6-1 (St. Cloud MAC)
2013 - Cathedral 3-1 (Exchange Arena)
2013 - Cathedral 3-0 (St. Cloud MAC)

[CherryPicker99]

I think section 3A could include the Mankato schools and New Prague. Not sure what could be rearranged for 1A though. If they wanted to play section games their furthest point to travel to would be Luverne (2 hours). That would make for a little better section.

[HShockeywatcher]

By 10pm the poll has more votes than last week's did all week!

How does cathedral move from #11 to #4 just by beating an average #15 little falls? This makes no sense and and these are pretty wild fluctuations you will not see in any poll anywhere. Or are you admitting your last week rankings were just that messed up?

Between 2 and 11, the case could be made for the teams to be in almost any order. As much as I can I do actually listen to posters, I also use the results of my polls. As I said, over half of those who voted in the poll last week thought the team I would still have at #3 didn't deserve to be in the Top 5, but there were no posters who actually gave a reason for why, or how it would affect the rest of the rankings.
So, I tried moving TRF down a few spots and things kind of fell into place.

All that said, with reference to Cathedral specifically, they were sitting right behind Princeton (who made it back on last week because it was commented on) because of their early 1 goal loss and this past week they beat them by 4 goals.

Ultimately though, almost all of the teams on the list past St Thomas have lost to someone below them and beaten someone above them and there is no way to not have that be the case. There are a handful of teams who play a large number of their games against lower competition so little is known about how they'd do against the 5-10 teams in Class A.

I also think it depends on how you weight previous games versus current games. My personal approach is to weight more recent games much more as we are ranking the current team, not the one playing in November or December. Early games are nice if you need something to break a tie, but to me they can't be held too important.
It seems that posters are saying they want early games to carry a little more weight, so I tried to show that this week.

[HShockeywatcher]

For once I actually agree with you, it makes sense geographically to move Sauk Rapids and St Cloud Cathedral, you have the Sy Cloud area represented, can the move Fergus to 8A and maybe Wilmar into 3A, either wa 3A is going to be a soft section unfortunately.

Yes. And his beloved Crusaders would no doubt make it to state 90% of the time. Good way to make sure the single A tourney has even more private school domination.

To me, it has little to do with which teams are represented and more to do with as much of an actual geographic assignment of the teams, since that's what the MSHSL claims it is doing. If that is really the only thing considered, there is a lot wrong with this map:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_ne ... 0&dclass=A

Proctor/Hermantown in 5A and not 7A.
Why aren't Apollo, Cathedral, Sartell and Sauk Rapids all in the same section, whatever section that is?
There's also a lot of interesting things that could be done in the 2A/4A/5A area. Chisago in 4A and not 5A?
Mankato into section 3 and Litch/Hutch into 6 would likely make some sense too.
I would also likely send Int. Falls over to 8 and get Detroit Lakes and Park Rapids, and maybe even Bagley into 6.
In the end, though, it would be difficult arrange things so all sections were competitive with each other if that was a part of your goal.

It's clear drive time/money is not the only thing they are concerned with, as they say it is, so I'm curious if anyone knows how the rest is determined?
Who says "hey, let's draw an arbitrary line right down the middle of St Cloud dividing sections"?
Taking a quick glance at other sports, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 instances per sport, I don't see any other sport with the glaring geographic issues that hockey has.

[PuckRanger]

To me, it has little to do with which teams are represented and more to do with as much of an actual geographic assignment of the teams, since that's what the MSHSL claims it is doing. If that is really the only thing considered, there is a lot wrong with this map:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_ne ... 0&dclass=A

Proctor/Hermantown in 5A and not 7A.
Why aren't Apollo, Cathedral, Sartell and Sauk Rapids all in the same section, whatever section that is?
There's also a lot of interesting things that could be done in the 2A/4A/5A area. Chisago in 4A and not 5A?
Mankato into section 3 and Litch/Hutch into 6 would likely make some sense too.
I would also likely send Int. Falls over to 8 and get Detroit Lakes and Park Rapids, and maybe even Bagley into 6.
In the end, though, it would be difficult arrange things so all sections were competitive with each other if that was a part of your goal.

It's clear drive time/money is not the only thing they are concerned with, as they say it is, so I'm curious if anyone knows how the rest is determined?
Who says "hey, let's draw an arbitrary line right down the middle of St Cloud dividing sections"?
Taking a quick glance at other sports, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 instances per sport, I don't see any other sport with the glaring geographic issues that hockey has.

You are correct, HShockeywatcher, in saying its based on geography. It is based solely on that and nothing more. Zero consideration is given to level of competition other than which class they play in. They start at the outside corners and work in, thus you have the sections in the NW, NE, SE, SW and they move inward from there as the sections fill up. I think this is rather obvious to me when you look at the map. You don't see a an odd color marker anywhere in the middle of any other area. This "theoretically" produces the most efficient drive time possibilities for section play. (In reality, that doesn't always work out.) The reason you see the more distant sections (like 5A and 7AA) is because they don't want a section with 13 teams and another with only 7 or 8.

That was the case with Proctor and Hermantown in 5A. 7A had a full 10 teams in it when the realignment was done last, so they were not going to have a 13 team section, thus Proctor, Denfeld, and Hermantown were shifted south into 5A, whom without them would have only had 8 teams. (Since then Silver Bay combined with Two Harbors and Duluth Central joined with Denfeld so this will probably change next year to bring 7A back to 10 or 11 teams.)

Since there were 86 class A teams when the last realignment was done, the target would be 10.75 teams per section. So they aim for 11 and adjust up or down from there to accommodate the geographical guidelines. It just works out that the more populated areas (Duluth, St. Cloud, and the metro area) end up split, but this is mainly due to their more central locations and the fact that they generally have more teams in a concentrated area thus enhancing the likelihood of the border falling in the area.

As for putting International Falls in 8A, that would be a terrible idea. They play in the Iron Range conference, which is all section 7 teams and the bulk of their schedule is against the MUCH closer 7A teams. Ely, Virginia, Hibbing, Greenway, Eveleth, and Grand Rapids are all around 100 miles away. If they switch to 8A, only Lake of the Woods and Warroad would be that close. Right now, their longest commute within the section is 176 miles to Two Harbors/Silver Bay. If put in 8A, they would have SIX opponents farther away than that. Not to mention I Falls is in the same section, district, or region with the same teams they are with now in pretty much every other sport in high school and at the youth level.

Taking a quick glance at other sports, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 instances per sport, I don't see any other sport with the glaring geographic issues that hockey has.

The reality is that hockey IS different. It has fewer teams, many more co-ops, and only two classes. This creates a different dynamic for section assignments because there can be 100 miles to the next town with a hockey team. On the other hand, Basketball, for example, tends to have a multitude of teams within any given area within the same class.

[Mite-dad]

Or SCC could just do the ballsy thing and move up to AA where they belong. They draw the best talent from a large metro area. Why not sack up and play with the big boys?

[BP]

They have to do something with Section 3. They get killed every year, even when those teams have good records. They should consider moving some teams like Mound, Delano, Orono, or Breck to that section, like they did in the 90's and early 00's (not all, but 2 of those 4). It would make for a better state tournament. The 10-11 seed from 2A has beaten the 1 seed from 3A the past two years.

[pekyman]

By 10pm the poll has more votes than last week's did all week!

How does cathedral move from #11 to #4 just by beating an average #15 little falls? This makes no sense and and these are pretty wild fluctuations you will not see in any poll anywhere. Or are you admitting your last week rankings were just that messed up?

Between 2 and 11, the case could be made for the teams to be in almost any order. As much as I can I do actually listen to posters, I also use the results of my polls. As I said, over half of those who voted in the poll last week thought the team I would still have at #3 didn't deserve to be in the Top 5, but there were no posters who actually gave a reason for why, or how it would affect the rest of the rankings.
So, I tried moving TRF down a few spots and things kind of fell into place.

All that said, with reference to Cathedral specifically, they were sitting right behind Princeton (who made it back on last week because it was commented on) because of their early 1 goal loss and this past week they beat them by 4 goals.

Ultimately though, almost all of the teams on the list past St Thomas have lost to someone below them and beaten someone above them and there is no way to not have that be the case. There are a handful of teams who play a large number of their games against lower competition so little is known about how they'd do against the 5-10 teams in Class A.

I also think it depends on how you weight previous games versus current games. My personal approach is to weight more recent games much more as we are ranking the current team, not the one playing in November or December. Early games are nice if you need something to break a tie, but to me they can't be held too important.
It seems that posters are saying they want early games to carry a little more weight, so I tried to show that this week.[/quote]

Now it seems that Posters are saying they want early games to carry more weight? Really?? So is that how you justify your wild swings that now have RL and SCC above HT?? You decided to do that now that the season is just about over? Change your methodology on the end of season rankings? You are a piece of work, I'll give you that.

[rainier]

By 10pm the poll has more votes than last week's did all week!

How does cathedral move from #11 to #4 just by beating an average #15 little falls? This makes no sense and and these are pretty wild fluctuations you will not see in any poll anywhere. Or are you admitting your last week rankings were just that messed up?

Between 2 and 11, the case could be made for the teams to be in almost any order. As much as I can I do actually listen to posters, I also use the results of my polls. As I said, over half of those who voted in the poll last week thought the team I would still have at #3 didn't deserve to be in the Top 5, but there were no posters who actually gave a reason for why, or how it would affect the rest of the rankings.
So, I tried moving TRF down a few spots and things kind of fell into place.

All that said, with reference to Cathedral specifically, they were sitting right behind Princeton (who made it back on last week because it was commented on) because of their early 1 goal loss and this past week they beat them by 4 goals.

Ultimately though, almost all of the teams on the list past St Thomas have lost to someone below them and beaten someone above them and there is no way to not have that be the case. There are a handful of teams who play a large number of their games against lower competition so little is known about how they'd do against the 5-10 teams in Class A.

I also think it depends on how you weight previous games versus current games. My personal approach is to weight more recent games much more as we are ranking the current team, not the one playing in November or December. Early games are nice if you need something to break a tie, but to me they can't be held too important.
It seems that posters are saying they want early games to carry a little more weight, so I tried to show that this week.[/quote]

Now it seems that Posters are saying they want early games to carry more weight? Really?? So is that how you justify your wild swings that now have RL and SCC above HT?? You decided to do that now that the season is just about over? Change your methodology on the end of season rankings? You are a piece of work, I'll give you that.

It is useless to argue with HSHW; I gave it up a while ago. He intentionally makes his rankings with one or two idiotic placements just to push people's buttons, asks for comments and criticisms, and then argues in circles when called on it. Let me summarize the process of dealing with him (or her, I'm not sure). He will:

1. Rank a team far too high or low just to get a rise out of people.
2. Defend his moronic rankings with confusing logic and circular arguments.
3. Claim that you are misunderstanding, misquoting, or misreading him after he has painted himself into an indefensible corner.
4. Claim that if you read some imaginary post of his from 6 months ago, you will see that he is right.
5. Moan that no one proposes solutions to problems while never offering any himself.
6. Repeat ad nauseam.

I still read his rankings because 85% of it is useful and informative, but I take his intentional argument-starters with shovels full of salt. Just thought I'd save you some more wasted effort.

[pekyman]

By 10pm the poll has more votes than last week's did all week!
Between 2 and 11, the case could be made for the teams to be in almost any order. As much as I can I do actually listen to posters, I also use the results of my polls. As I said, over half of those who voted in the poll last week thought the team I would still have at #3 didn't deserve to be in the Top 5, but there were no posters who actually gave a reason for why, or how it would affect the rest of the rankings.
So, I tried moving TRF down a few spots and things kind of fell into place.

All that said, with reference to Cathedral specifically, they were sitting right behind Princeton (who made it back on last week because it was commented on) because of their early 1 goal loss and this past week they beat them by 4 goals.

Ultimately though, almost all of the teams on the list past St Thomas have lost to someone below them and beaten someone above them and there is no way to not have that be the case. There are a handful of teams who play a large number of their games against lower competition so little is known about how they'd do against the 5-10 teams in Class A.

I also think it depends on how you weight previous games versus current games. My personal approach is to weight more recent games much more as we are ranking the current team, not the one playing in November or December. Early games are nice if you need something to break a tie, but to me they can't be held too important.
It seems that posters are saying they want early games to carry a little more weight, so I tried to show that this week.[/quote]

Now it seems that Posters are saying they want early games to carry more weight? Really?? So is that how you justify your wild swings that now have RL and SCC above HT?? You decided to do that now that the season is just about over? Change your methodology on the end of season rankings? You are a piece of work, I'll give you that.

It is useless to argue with HSHW; I gave it up a while ago. He intentionally makes his rankings with one or two idiotic placements just to push people's buttons, asks for comments and criticisms, and then argues in circles when called on it. Let me summarize the process of dealing with him (or her, I'm not sure). He will:

1. Rank a team far too high or low just to get a rise out of people.
2. Defend his moronic rankings with confusing logic and circular arguments.
3. Claim that you are misunderstanding, misquoting, or misreading him after he has painted himself into an indefensible corner.
4. Claim that if you read some imaginary post of his from 6 months ago, you will see that he is right.
5. Moan that no one proposes solutions to problems while never offering any himself.
6. Repeat ad nauseam.

I still read his rankings because 85% of it is useful and informative, but I take his intentional argument-starters with shovels full of salt. Just thought I'd save you some more wasted effort.

Great summary of the HShockeySpinner’s methodology Rainier, Thanks!

The top 3 ranked teams obvious to anybody that does an un-biased, un-spun analysis.

1. STAA
2. BRECK SCHOOL -AA
3. HERMANTOWN -A
Rankings from LPH and FTP

By the way Spinner, Zevnik gave up 4 goals on 19 shots in a 4-4-tie with Tartan. I did the math for you. That’s a goal every 4.75 shots. You didn’t say much about this. In your STAA summary you make it sound like Zevnik was not in the nets. Quote: “The Cadets stumbled with a tie to Tartan then racked up many points against Simley. They will likely pick up two wins and some more playing time for the backup goalie this week”. The score sheet has Zevnik as the goalie in this game… So who was in the nets in the Tartan game?

Imo, Breck and Hermantown are tied, and either one of them can give STAA a run for its money; especially with the goaltending STAA had against Tartan.

[HShockeywatcher]

Now it seems that Posters are saying they want early games to carry more weight? Really?? So is that how you justify your wild swings that now have RL and SCC above HT?? You decided to do that now that the season is just about over? Change your methodology on the end of season rankings? You are a piece of work, I'll give you that.

All season my methodology has been based the ranks on results of games, using the weight of the most recent more heavily than previous. I have also listened to posters and the results of my polls and adjusted accordingly. Class A is so diverse with many of the teams who do not play each other and also very few people who can see all of the teams play, myself included, which is why I highly value all of the constructive feedback I can get. I use it regularly.

My poll last week showed that not many people think TRF should be where they are. Comments last week from people were also that because of the whoopin' the Hawks put on the Prowlers early in the season, Hermantown couldn't possibly be ranked lower than TRF.
I don't read minds and there were zero posts about TRF being lower and zero very descriptive posts about Hermantown being higher.
It appeared, to me, that 1 game 17 games previous counted more to some people than the 17 that happened since.

Cathedral has beaten Breck while losing to a couple teams one wouldn't expect them to. Apparently they had missing players in some, but I don't know. Right now they are on a 9 game win streak, which was started with a win over Hermantown and includes a recent victory over Princeton. They were below Princeton last week, but proved to currently be the better team. It would be hard for me to keep them below Hermantown at this point.
Lourdes is one of those teams that has been in limbo all season as they has lost to really good teams and beaten worse teams. There is little evidence they couldn't be the 3rd best team in Class A. In their 4th game of the season they beat Cathedral.

It continues to intrigue me that people only rant and rave about the things that don't benefit their team from being where they want, but when the exact same things happen to another team, it's okay.
Breck dropped quite a few spots early from a loss to a ranked team and no one cared, but then when Hermantown did the same, I was suddenly a Hermantown hater.
The same has been true all season for teams jumping up. Where's the love for Totino? In two weeks they went from 3 to 11.

In my opinion, you have to think of Class A as more of a fluid list than something set in stone. This is what I've heard from many as well. There are 6-8 teams that on any given night any could be the victor and a loss could drop you quite a few spots while a win could do the same in the other direction.
I respect your opinion of where you think your team should be. It is not mine, but I respect it and will continue to.

The last two seasons I have had Hermantown supporters tell me how stupid I was for not having them number 1, saying many of the same things you are, and when push came to shove Hermantown lost to the team I had at number 1. Then the excuses flew.
This year they don't have the record against Class A they did those years (0 losses outside of state final) or the consistency (one game last year of more than 3GA) and somehow it's different this year?

By the way Spinner, Zevnik gave up 4 goals on 19 shots in a 4-4-tie with Tartan. I did the math for you. That’s a goal every 4.75 shots. You didn’t say much about this. In your STAA summary you make it sound like Zevnik was not in the nets. Quote: “The Cadets stumbled with a tie to Tartan then racked up many points against Simley. They will likely pick up two wins and some more playing time for the backup goalie this week”. The score sheet has Zevnik as the goalie in this game… So who was in the nets in the Tartan game?

Imo, Breck and Hermantown are tied, and either one of them can give STAA a run for its money; especially with the goaltending STAA had against Tartan.

Not sure what you didn't understand, but I never said he wasn't in net against Tartan. He was in net against Tartan and Conor Murphy (back up goalie) played against Simley. My guess is that Murphy will likely play one or both of the games this week. Maybe even the first playoff game, but I haven't a clue.

I can do the math, but thanks. It's also a 79% save percentage. It's not an excuse, although I know it won't matter to you, but Mr. Hockey finalist Jake Jackson was involved in 3 of the 4 goals against that game. Regardless of why it was, it was Zevnik's third game of the season with more than 2GA. Everyone has off games. I'm sure he'll be fine going forward.

To me, it has little to do with which teams are represented and more to do with as much of an actual geographic assignment of the teams, since that's what the MSHSL claims it is doing. If that is really the only thing considered, there is a lot wrong with this map:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_ne ... 0&dclass=A

Proctor/Hermantown in 5A and not 7A.
Why aren't Apollo, Cathedral, Sartell and Sauk Rapids all in the same section, whatever section that is?
There's also a lot of interesting things that could be done in the 2A/4A/5A area. Chisago in 4A and not 5A?
Mankato into section 3 and Litch/Hutch into 6 would likely make some sense too.
I would also likely send Int. Falls over to 8 and get Detroit Lakes and Park Rapids, and maybe even Bagley into 6.
In the end, though, it would be difficult arrange things so all sections were competitive with each other if that was a part of your goal.

It's clear drive time/money is not the only thing they are concerned with, as they say it is, so I'm curious if anyone knows how the rest is determined?
Who says "hey, let's draw an arbitrary line right down the middle of St Cloud dividing sections"?
Taking a quick glance at other sports, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 instances per sport, I don't see any other sport with the glaring geographic issues that hockey has.

You are correct, HShockeywatcher, in saying its based on geography. It is based solely on that and nothing more. Zero consideration is given to level of competition other than which class they play in. They start at the outside corners and work in, thus you have the sections in the NW, NE, SE, SW and they move inward from there as the sections fill up. I think this is rather obvious to me when you look at the map. You don't see a an odd color marker anywhere in the middle of any other area. This "theoretically" produces the most efficient drive time possibilities for section play. (In reality, that doesn't always work out.) The reason you see the more distant sections (like 5A and 7AA) is because they don't want a section with 13 teams and another with only 7 or 8.

That was the case with Proctor and Hermantown in 5A. 7A had a full 10 teams in it when the realignment was done last, so they were not going to have a 13 team section, thus Proctor, Denfeld, and Hermantown were shifted south into 5A, whom without them would have only had 8 teams. (Since then Silver Bay combined with Two Harbors and Duluth Central joined with Denfeld so this will probably change next year to bring 7A back to 10 or 11 teams.)

Right now sections have either 9, 10, 11 or 12 teams. There are 2 sections of each size; currently 84 teams in Class A.

If 5A (11) gave two teams (Hermantown and Proctor) to 7A (10), both teams would still between 9 and 12.
If 6A (10) gave two (Sartell and Apollo) to 5A (now 9), 5A would then have the 11 they have no but be more geographically centered and 6A would then have 8.
Then 8A (10) could give 6A one or two (Detroit Lakes and/or Park Rapids), and 8A would be at 8 or 9 and 6A back to 8 or 9.
You could also take Chisago from 4A and put them in 5A, which would allow Cathedral/Sauk Rapids to go to 6A.
All of this moving would keep sections between the current 9 and 12 teams they have.

I don't personally care where International Falls is, but arguing they stay for conference affiliation and then arguing not to move schools like Hermantown, Proctor, Detroits Lakes, Sauk Rapids and likely others for the same reason seems illogical to me. Conferences and sections are not the same thing and while they line up often, they don't always.
That being said, if drive time/money/geography is truly the main concern, it's really a wash if the section tournament is held anywhere other than EGF, especially if each tournament were held in the most geographically central locations. Ultimately I don't care, it was just a thought.

I am not the first to make many of these observations, but if you want to maintain that basically everything I say is wrong, you're more than welcome to. I'm not even claiming the moves I'd suggest are perfect, simply that there is no way what the sections currently are is the most central geographically speaking. But if it makes you feel better, I admit it, I was wrong.