New Playoff Format - Reseed 16 final teams

[HShockeywatcher]

I think if you used minnesota-scores computer rankings from the end of the regular season, you would have had this line up:

Edina (home) v. Champlin Park
Duluth East (home) v. Lakeville North
Hill Murray (home) v. Lakeville South
Wayzata (home) v. Moorhead
Eagan (home) v. WBL
Benilde (home) v. Brainerd
Centennial (home) v. Eastview
Burnsville (home) v. Grand Rapids

No natural rivalries, lots of travel and last minute planning.

Not really interested in this. Have to believe section final attendance would be down big time.

I'd question "big time." Maybe down, but people would still go to the games. Would less people come out to see Champlin play Edina than Centennial, for example? I don't know.

My guess on the other end, though, is that it would have the potential to increase attendance for the quarterfinal games, which would be something worth more money for the state.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I think if you used minnesota-scores computer rankings from the end of the regular season, you would have had this line up:

Edina (home) v. Champlin Park
Duluth East (home) v. Lakeville North
Hill Murray (home) v. Lakeville South
Wayzata (home) v. Moorhead
Eagan (home) v. WBL
Benilde (home) v. Brainerd
Centennial (home) v. Eastview
Burnsville (home) v. Grand Rapids

No natural rivalries, lots of travel and last minute planning.

Not really interested in this. Have to believe section final attendance would be down big time.

I'd question "big time." Maybe down, but people would still go to the games. Would less people come out to see Champlin play Edina than Centennial, for example? I don't know.

My guess on the other end, though, is that it would have the potential to increase attendance for the quarterfinal games, which would be something worth more money for the state.

Quarterfinal attendance is typically close to 17,500. This plan would not do much for attendance, at best 1,000 tickets or less. Any gains could easily be offset by lower attendance at the "section final" games. (Lose HM-WBL and gain HM-Lakeville South)

[HShockeywatcher]

You mean we could finally get to see both Lakevilles at the X? Sweet!!!

Seriously, I can see a lot of problems with this. First, it has few direct comparisons to 6A football. Second, it will easily fall prey to the Law of Unintended Consequences. We built a domed stadium, guaranteeing that the Twins would never get rained out, and folks from the hinterlands would know if they came to Mpls they'd see a game. Unfortunately, we also guaranteed that they'd never see a game in 75 degree sunshine. (Remember, all analogies are imperfect.)

The #15 seed playing the #3 seed would NOT attract much interest, even if the #15 seed were Eden Prairie. The 8-9 and 7-10 games might be of interest, but don't expect a lot of Eastview fans to drive up to Duluth to see them play GR at the Oil Can.

The MSHSL does not factor competitiveness into section assignments. I think it would solve a lot of problems if they made section assignments just like they do now, but once they are complete, tweak them for competitiveness. Because the goal (a better tournament field) could be accomplished that way.

And don't think the U is going to give up Mariucci every year, either. Bulldog has Edina, Wayzata, Benilde. Eagan and Burnsville at home. That requires Mariucci on Friday night and all day Saturday. Or use that dump at the Fairgrounds that is the Metrodome of Hockey. On the other hand, Champlin Park-Edina might well fit easily into Braemar.

In your opinion, what if it weren't seeded but set up the way 6A football is now?
I can see the potential issue with what you're saying (although I think any lost attendance could be made up in the quarterfinals at the X), but what if it was simply the #2 (lower) seed of one section playing the #1 (higher) of another section and those two sections were predetermined?

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

You mean we could finally get to see both Lakevilles at the X? Sweet!!!

Seriously, I can see a lot of problems with this. First, it has few direct comparisons to 6A football. Second, it will easily fall prey to the Law of Unintended Consequences. We built a domed stadium, guaranteeing that the Twins would never get rained out, and folks from the hinterlands would know if they came to Mpls they'd see a game. Unfortunately, we also guaranteed that they'd never see a game in 75 degree sunshine. (Remember, all analogies are imperfect.)

The #15 seed playing the #3 seed would NOT attract much interest, even if the #15 seed were Eden Prairie. The 8-9 and 7-10 games might be of interest, but don't expect a lot of Eastview fans to drive up to Duluth to see them play GR at the Oil Can.

The MSHSL does not factor competitiveness into section assignments. I think it would solve a lot of problems if they made section assignments just like they do now, but once they are complete, tweak them for competitiveness. Because the goal (a better tournament field) could be accomplished that way.

And don't think the U is going to give up Mariucci every year, either. Bulldog has Edina, Wayzata, Benilde. Eagan and Burnsville at home. That requires Mariucci on Friday night and all day Saturday. Or use that dump at the Fairgrounds that is the Metrodome of Hockey. On the other hand, Champlin Park-Edina might well fit easily into Braemar.

In your opinion, what if it weren't seeded but set up the way 6A football is now?
I can see the potential issue with what you're saying (although I think any lost attendance could be made up in the quarterfinals at the X), but what if it was simply the #2 (lower) seed of one section playing the #1 (higher) of another section and those two sections were predetermined?

Part of my objection is that the logistics would probably be more complex than we might imagine. That would be eased some by predetermined match ups.

How would predetermined match-ups be determined? Random draw each year? Set rotation? If it's a set rotation, there will be years (using this year as an example) you get Edina-Wayzata and Lakeville S-Moorhead. That can happen with a random draw, too. Or you get an HM-GR and a WBL-Champlin Park.

it just seems a lot simpler to factor competitiveness into the section assignments. Otherwise, we're bending over back wards to say sections are solely based on geography and then negating that.

Neither system is perfect. Think about instant replay. It sounded good before (any sport) had it. But for one, the wrong call can still be made (irrefutable evidence is required to over turn a call). For another, it completely destroys the momentum in a game. I'm not saying we should get rid of it, just that it changes the game and introduces another set of problems.

There is a saying that hard cases make bad law. Be careful what you ask for; you might get it.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Wait! Let's get Fox to have two of the games on a melting sheet of outdoor ice!
Or maybe the Zunbro River! Boy would that be fun.

[goldy313]

In your opinion, what if it weren't seeded but set up the way 6A football is now?
I can see the potential issue with what you're saying (although I think any lost attendance could be made up in the quarterfinals at the X), but what if it was simply the #2 (lower) seed of one section playing the #1 (higher) of another section and those two sections were predetermined?

Then you'd still have one overloaded section - 6AA and a couple (or more) weaker ones - 1AA, 3AA, 5AA, and 8AA. So the same argument we have now will still be there, we would just potentially get two teams out of 6AA instead of 1 and 2 or 3 others would be left out for *gasp* a Lakeville school.

I also would want to know who would pick the 16 best teams, the same coaches who thought nothing of Lakeville South last year or Rochester Century in 2007? Because neither would have been in the top 16.

[HShockeywatcher]

Quarterfinal attendance is typically close to 17,500. This plan would not do much for attendance, at best 1,000 tickets or less. Any gains could easily be offset by lower attendance at the "section final" games. (Lose HM-WBL and gain HM-Lakeville South)

I know zero about revenue sharing at state games vs section games and such. Tickets to the AA section final I went to were $10, the A final I went to were $8 and the tickets for A and AA at state are $17. Concessions are also considerably more.
Say the 17,500 figure is right, that's just over 1,000 more that can be seated, and the record attendance is about 2,000 more than that. Which could be some good potential for revenue. I suspect that even if there was no net loss of fans, there would be more revenue produced.

Regardless of how you fudge it, price/concessions would depend on how the revenue would change/be affected. Ultimately, I'm guessing AA would be affected marginally.

Class A, on the other hand, would likely be improved greatly, both with attendance and revenue. You would end up with a field of 8 teams that are quite a bit more competitive than what we have now and it is very possible attendance could jump quite a bit. Class A section finals are currently played at smaller venues, so a change wouldn't matter much there.

I know it's the tournament no one cares about; how bout changing it only for Class A?

In your opinion, what if it weren't seeded but set up the way 6A football is now?
I can see the potential issue with what you're saying (although I think any lost attendance could be made up in the quarterfinals at the X), but what if it was simply the #2 (lower) seed of one section playing the #1 (higher) of another section and those two sections were predetermined?

Then you'd still have one overloaded section - 6AA and a couple (or more) weaker ones - 1AA, 3AA, 5AA, and 8AA. So the same argument we have now will still be there, we would just potentially get two teams out of 6AA instead of 1 and 2 or 3 others would be left out for *gasp* a Lakeville school.

I also would want to know who would pick the 16 best teams, the same coaches who thought nothing of Lakeville South last year or Rochester Century in 2007? Because neither would have been in the top 16.

There have also been years in recent history where Roseau and Moorhead were two of the top few teams in the state and the 8AA section final featured better teams than most of the games at state. I know teams in your neck of the woods would likely get the shaft more often than not, but it would likely be better for overall competitiveness.

I believe in either scenario, the proposed one or the change I am suggesting, there is no vote for the top 16, it is simply the teams who would be in what is now the section finals.

I would speculate as well that it would have the potential to nudge teams around the state to opt up. Knowing you can be the second best team in your section and still make it to state could get some to make the jump.

[karl(east)]

I know it's the tournament no one cares about; how bout changing it only for Class A? ?

Using the end of regular season USHSHO rankings, that would give us a Sweet 16 of:

#1 STA vs. #16 Marshall
#2 Hermantown vs. #15 Hutchinson
#3 Breck vs. #14 St. Cloud Apollo
#4 East Grand Forks vs. #13 Delano
#5 Totino-Grace vs. #12 Mankato West
#6 St. Cloud Cathedral vs. #11 Warroad
#7 Duluth Marshall vs. #10 Little Falls
#8 Rochester Lourdes vs. #9 Duluth Denfeld

Given the current section assignments, it's near-impossible to avoid that handful of blowout games. It's just a question of if you'd rather see them at the X in the quarterfinals or in the section finals/round of 16.

On the revenue discussion: it's also worth pointing out that the X is probably much more expensive to rent out than most of the section final venues.

My biggest concerns about this proposal are (1) logistics and extra travel--especially for outstate teams that might not get a single meaningful playoff game anywhere near their home--and (2) the weakening/death of great section rivalries. I suspect a team like Hermantown would much rather face Duluth Marshall in front of a packed house in a 7A section final (as is quite likely to happen the next few years) than travel to St. Cloud to face Hutchinson, even if the latter offered a much easier ticket to the quarterfinals.

[HShockeywatcher]

I know it's the tournament no one cares about; how bout changing it only for Class A? ?

Using the end of regular season USHSHO rankings, that would give us a Sweet 16 of:

#1 STA vs. #16 Marshall
#2 Hermantown vs. #15 Hutchinson
#3 Breck vs. #14 St. Cloud Apollo
#4 East Grand Forks vs. #13 Delano
#5 Totino-Grace vs. #12 Mankato West
#6 St. Cloud Cathedral vs. #11 Warroad
#7 Duluth Marshall vs. #10 Little Falls
#8 Rochester Lourdes vs. #9 Duluth Denfeld

Given the current section assignments, it's near-impossible to avoid that handful of blowout games. It's just a question of if you'd rather see them at the X in the quarterfinals or in the section finals/round of 16.

On the revenue discussion: it's also worth pointing out that the X is probably much more expensive to rent out than most of the section final venues.

My biggest concerns about this proposal are (1) logistics and extra travel--especially for outstate teams that might not get a single meaningful playoff game anywhere near their home--and (2) the weakening/death of great section rivalries. I suspect a team like Hermantown would much rather face Duluth Marshall in front of a packed house in a 7A section final (as is quite likely to happen the next few years) than travel to St. Cloud to face Hutchinson, even if the latter offered a much easier ticket to the quarterfinals.

I count 3 potential blowout games in the round of 16. If we believe the comments since the tournament that blowing out a public school is only a private school thing and use Marshall's game against Breck as evidence, that blowout count could end up at 1 or none.
I'm not sure how it would affect attendance in the quarterfinals as this hypothetical would yield 6 private schools and I, for example, saw that Apollo travels well, but the quality of games would be better and maybe that would attract more of a crowd. St Thomas has opted up, so putting Mahtomedi there would help.

How does the rent work at these places? Who gets the ticket/concession revenue/profit? I don't know what they'd affect, but it'd be interesting to know numbers.

Do you think that the potential to play a better team would be a positive or negative? If you are the team who would be the 16 seed in this format, would a team really not travel to play the top seed?
You are likely right about the one game for Hermantown/DMarshall, but with the example you gave, they'd end up playing in the state quarterfinals. Don't you think they'd prefer to play each other in the state quarterfinals at the X? My guess is that Hermantown and Marshall would travel similarly to the X, but you'd have the addition of others in attendance. I, for example, would attend the game at the X, as I'm sure many others would love to see it.

I don't disagree there is a potential for some loss of attendance in the round of 16, but that I would guess, at least in Class A, that the attendance would be made up in the state games and games would be more competitive. Would that be "better?"
You be the judge.

[goldy313]

I know the Xcel energy center is incredibly expensive to rent, so much so the MSHSL has looked at other options for hockey and wrestling. Mariucci is also expensive enough that 1AA and 1A left it for Rochester a number of years ago. While others left it for the Coliseum.

Rochester's rent plus expenses for refs and game staff are about $1000 for the day on semifinals and probably nearer to $500 for a sectional final. 2000 people at $6 a head returns a good amount to the schools where they lost money at Mariucci. Add the semi finals into the mix and 1AA returns over $3000 to each AA school if my math is correct.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I'm not saying this to slam class A, but I really don't believe that this would have more than a marginal effect on interest in class A hockey. That goes for attendance or income. I might be wrong, but I don't think the average fan thinks there is a high caliber of hockey to be seen there. Maybe my assessment is wrong, maybe the average fan's perception is wrong. I don't a lot of interest in a Mahtomedi-Mankato West game no matter the venue.

If about five teams were reassigned, this plan goes away.

Bonus question: What does Mahtomedi mean?

[Air Force 1]

I'm not saying this to slam class A, but I really don't believe that this would have more than a marginal effect on interest in class A hockey. That goes for attendance or income. I might be wrong, but I don't think the average fan thinks there is a high caliber of hockey to be seen there. Maybe my assessment is wrong, maybe the average fan's perception is wrong. I don't a lot of interest in a Mahtomedi-Mankato West game no matter the venue.

If about five teams were reassigned, this plan goes away.

Bonus question: What does Mahtomedi mean?

If you have to preface something by saying "I'm not saying this to slam class A", it's a slam. Does AA have better hockey, yes, but only the top 10-12 teams, mostly metro privates and SW metro, then it drops off to be pretty even with the top 10-12 in A. I would say an A school advancing to the state tournament by beating a rival in the section final is more important to a small town than a SW metro or metro private winning the whole thing. Would attendance be less, of course, but those that attend from a small town will put more passion and take more enjoyment from the event. I can tell how taken for granted the metro powerhouses take the PRIVILEGE of being able to play in the tournament. I wish you all could experience the tournament experience from a small public school point of view.

[PuckU126]

What's wrong with the playoff set-up now?

Are these cries about little Jimmy not getting a trophy again?

[TheHockeyDJ]

The thing that's wrong with the current set up is all the state quarterfinal blowouts. It would be nice to have 1-2 games every year in the AA Quarterfinals go into overtime and the other games at least be competitive going into the 3rd period.

[Deck Slide]

The new format would help eliminate the blow outs in the first round at the X. Logistically this is not as hard as what every thinks. Neutral sites are used anyways for section final games and semifinals. So even if Marshall gets Warroad in the first Round of the 16 their will be a Neutral site more than likely somewhere in the middle. The teams under this new format that have to travel 2 hours or more to get to a sweet 16 game is not different that what they do during the course of the year. Luverne and Marshall had to Travel to St. Peter, Mn for section games. What the heck is the difference if they have to go to St. Cloud or even Alexandra for that matter. Cripes Warroard to Thief is 2 hours! Teams in the SW, W, and NW have to travel and put the miles regardless!

I am all for it if this format helps competiveness at the X. Having multiple 5 or 6 goal differentials degrades and takes away the luster of the State Hockey Tournament. I believe having super sections is the way to go.. It won't completely eliminate blowouts the X but would help close the gap from the 1 seed to the 8 seed at the tournament.

[Mailman]

I'm not saying this to slam class A, but I really don't believe that this would have more than a marginal effect on interest in class A hockey. That goes for attendance or income. I might be wrong, but I don't think the average fan thinks there is a high caliber of hockey to be seen there. Maybe my assessment is wrong, maybe the average fan's perception is wrong. I don't a lot of interest in a Mahtomedi-Mankato West game no matter the venue.

If about five teams were reassigned, this plan goes away.

Bonus question: What does Mahtomedi mean?

If you have to preface something by saying "I'm not saying this to slam class A", it's a slam. Does AA have better hockey, yes, but only the top 10-12 teams, mostly metro privates and SW metro, then it drops off to be pretty even with the top 10-12 in A. I would say an A school advancing to the state tournament by beating a rival in the section final is more important to a small town than a SW metro or metro private winning the whole thing. Would attendance be less, of course, but those that attend from a small town will put more passion and take more enjoyment from the event. I can tell how taken for granted the metro powerhouses take the PRIVILEGE of being able to play in the tournament. I wish you all could experience the tournament experience from a small public school point of view.

Yep. Kind of like when they cry crocodile tears, when they say; "If action x is done, it will ruin the Class A tournament...."

[allstatebenders]

What's wrong with the playoff set-up now?

Are these cries about little Jimmy not getting a trophy again?

No, more like GR not getting any trophies.

[karl(east)]

I count 3 potential blowout games in the round of 16. If we believe the comments since the tournament that blowing out a public school is only a private school thing and use Marshall's game against Breck as evidence, that blowout count could end up at 1 or none.

At the A Tourney this year we had 2 1st-round blowouts; in the section finals, we had maybe 2 as well (in 1A and 2A). If Lourdes can blow out Mankato West, Totino probably could, too; if Breck can blow out Delano, EGF probably also could have. So long as we have the current 3A and the new 5A, we're going to get these blowouts somewhere along the line. I also disagree with the premise of your second sentence, and am (personally) just as bored with Hermantown or Warroad blowing out weaker teams (which has happened in the past few years). The gaps between the top teams in A are always larger than they are in AA (any computerized ranking will back this up), and probably always will be. (I could ramble on the reasons behind that for a while, but I'll cut myself off unless people want to hear it.)

I noticed the 6 private schools also, and I wasn't going to touch that. But since it's been mentioned, truth is, it is generally true that public schools draw better in Class A. (STA being the exception; they draw very well. AA is also a different story, with Hill and Benilde both drawing very well for schools of their size.) Lourdes, Duluth Marshall, and Breck didn't have very impressive crowds this year, while Marshall and Apollo had big crowds, even though most of those fans knew what was going to happen. To be fair, the attendance gap could have something to do with Lourdes and Breck being regulars, while this was something new and exciting for Apollo and Marshall. Still, I think that public schools will generally draw more casual interest from their communities, especially when we're talking about the smaller, generally somewhat less talented schools. In most cases, they are bigger than the remaining A privates, too. (I say this as someone who has no problem with the remaining Class A privates being in Class A, too--it just is what it is.)

Do you think that the potential to play a better team would be a positive or negative? If you are the team who would be the 16 seed in this format, would a team really not travel to play the top seed?
You are likely right about the one game for Hermantown/DMarshall, but with the example you gave, they'd end up playing in the state quarterfinals. Don't you think they'd prefer to play each other in the state quarterfinals at the X? My guess is that Hermantown and Marshall would travel similarly to the X, but you'd have the addition of others in attendance. I, for example, would attend the game at the X, as I'm sure many others would love to see it.

That Duluth Marshall-Hermantown quarterfinal game did happen at the X this year, and the attendance for that first Class A session--including Breck-Marshall here--didn't get over 4,000. I think that section final at Amsoil could easily draw 3,000+. Since you follow Class A pretty closely and know something about the Duluth area, you might really enjoy that game, but most casual hockey fans in the Metro probably aren't all that enthralled by a northern Class A rivalry. I wish Class A could generate more interest than it does, but I don't see this sort of switch doing it.

I don't disagree there is a potential for some loss of attendance in the round of 16, but that I would guess, at least in Class A, that the attendance would be made up in the state games and games would be more competitive. Would that be "better?"
You be the judge.

I agree it's very subjective, and I don't think the new proposal is really worse, but it's not necessarily any better, either. As a result, I'd stick with what we have, and also not have to deal with the logistics. That part would be especially hard. The ice time would need to be reserved some time in advance, and with the match-ups not set until the week before these games (sometimes the same week, if we keep the same schedule), who knows if they could find enough good sites. Especially in Class A, where the teams are scattered all over the place, and you'd probably get a lot of games in places like St. Cloud.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I really take exception to being told that I slammed class A hockey because I prefaced my comments by saying "i'm not slamming class A. Not only is that poor logic, but also just because class A supporters hear something they don't like does not mean that someone is slamming class A hockey. Don't be so sensitive.

It sounds like this is much more of a concern for class A than AA.

[Puckguy19]

I know it's the tournament no one cares about; how bout changing it only for Class A? ?

Using the end of regular season USHSHO rankings, that would give us a Sweet 16 of:

#1 STA vs. #16 Marshall
#2 Hermantown vs. #15 Hutchinson
#3 Breck vs. #14 St. Cloud Apollo
#4 East Grand Forks vs. #13 Delano
#5 Totino-Grace vs. #12 Mankato West
#6 St. Cloud Cathedral vs. #11 Warroad
#7 Duluth Marshall vs. #10 Little Falls
#8 Rochester Lourdes vs. #9 Duluth Denfeld

Given the current section assignments, it's near-impossible to avoid that handful of blowout games. It's just a question of if you'd rather see them at the X in the quarterfinals or in the section finals/round of 16.

On the revenue discussion: it's also worth pointing out that the X is probably much more expensive to rent out than most of the section final venues.

My biggest concerns about this proposal are (1) logistics and extra travel--especially for outstate teams that might not get a single meaningful playoff game anywhere near their home--and (2) the weakening/death of great section rivalries. I suspect a team like Hermantown would much rather face Duluth Marshall in front of a packed house in a 7A section final (as is quite likely to happen the next few years) than travel to St. Cloud to face Hutchinson, even if the latter offered a much easier ticket to the quarterfinals.

I would imagine, that as something like this format is considered, you will find dollar injected into the conversation in other ways. Assuming the matchups listed above, I would think the closer one gets to the 8/9 matchup, the less bracket integrity will prevail over dollars.

I could envision the argument between the #4 and #6 matchup, saving travel costs and increasing attendance by sending Warroad to EGF and Delano to Cathedral. In the #7 and #8 matchups, we could send Little Falls to Rochester and ensure a payday (maybe?) in Duluth.

A lot would depend on who does the final ranking, and whether bracket integrity was deemed more important than finances, which I highly doubt would be the case.

[HShockeywatcher]

I count 3 potential blowout games in the round of 16. If we believe the comments since the tournament that blowing out a public school is only a private school thing and use Marshall's game against Breck as evidence, that blowout count could end up at 1 or none.

At the A Tourney this year we had 2 1st-round blowouts; in the section finals, we had maybe 2 as well (in 1A and 2A). If Lourdes can blow out Mankato West, Totino probably could, too; if Breck can blow out Delano, EGF probably also could have. So long as we have the current 3A and the new 5A, we're going to get these blowouts somewhere along the line. I also disagree with the premise of your second sentence, and am (personally) just as bored with Hermantown or Warroad blowing out weaker teams (which has happened in the past few years). The gaps between the top teams in A are always larger than they are in AA (any computerized ranking will back this up), and probably always will be. (I could ramble on the reasons behind that for a while, but I'll cut myself off unless people want to hear it.)

I noticed the 6 private schools also, and I wasn't going to touch that. But since it's been mentioned, truth is, it is generally true that public schools draw better in Class A. (STA being the exception; they draw very well. AA is also a different story, with Hill and Benilde both drawing very well for schools of their size.) Lourdes, Duluth Marshall, and Breck didn't have very impressive crowds this year, while Marshall and Apollo had big crowds, even though most of those fans knew what was going to happen. To be fair, the attendance gap could have something to do with Lourdes and Breck being regulars, while this was something new and exciting for Apollo and Marshall. Still, I think that public schools will generally draw more casual interest from their communities, especially when we're talking about the smaller, generally somewhat less talented schools. In most cases, they are bigger than the remaining A privates, too. (I say this as someone who has no problem with the remaining Class A privates being in Class A, too--it just is what it is.)

Ultimately my point is about where the blowouts will happen, but I'd personally prefer to see them in the round of 16 if possible and have 7 [more] competitive games.
And yes, my second sentence wasn't totally serious, I've just been quite amused by the comments that the result of the Apollo game had anything to do with one team being private and the other being public.

You are correct about the schools like Marshall and Apollo drawing well. It was really cool to see that much support for Apollo out.
Although, I would add that I think this format change would likely draw more for the earlier rounds. I can't speak for Breck in the quarters, but the fan side was quite bare; less around going to attend a non-competitive game like that. In the final, the bowl was packed on both sides though.

Do you think that the potential to play a better team would be a positive or negative? If you are the team who would be the 16 seed in this format, would a team really not travel to play the top seed?
You are likely right about the one game for Hermantown/DMarshall, but with the example you gave, they'd end up playing in the state quarterfinals. Don't you think they'd prefer to play each other in the state quarterfinals at the X? My guess is that Hermantown and Marshall would travel similarly to the X, but you'd have the addition of others in attendance. I, for example, would attend the game at the X, as I'm sure many others would love to see it.

That Duluth Marshall-Hermantown quarterfinal game did happen at the X this year, and the attendance for that first Class A session--including Breck-Marshall here--didn't get over 4,000. I think that section final at Amsoil could easily draw 3,000+. Since you follow Class A pretty closely and know something about the Duluth area, you might really enjoy that game, but most casual hockey fans in the Metro probably aren't all that enthralled by a northern Class A rivalry. I wish Class A could generate more interest than it does, but I don't see this sort of switch doing it.

How many of those 3,000+ do you think wouldn't make the trip to the X?
Maybe some, but not a lot I'd guess. But ultimately, that's the point I'm trying to make here, $8 x 3,000 = $24,000 while $17 x 4,000 = $68,000. I know they're not all adults at either, but it's a very real point. If you throw in concessions, there is money to be made.

I don't disagree there is a potential for some loss of attendance in the round of 16, but that I would guess, at least in Class A, that the attendance would be made up in the state games and games would be more competitive. Would that be "better?"
You be the judge.

I agree it's very subjective, and I don't think the new proposal is really worse, but it's not necessarily any better, either. As a result, I'd stick with what we have, and also not have to deal with the logistics. That part would be especially hard. The ice time would need to be reserved some time in advance, and with the match-ups not set until the week before these games (sometimes the same week, if we keep the same schedule), who knows if they could find enough good sites. Especially in Class A, where the teams are scattered all over the place, and you'd probably get a lot of games in places like St. Cloud.

Well, if you did the 1 v 16, 2 v 15, etc, then this would be true, but if you did the #1 in 5A vs #2 in 6A, #2 in 5A v #2 in 6A, etc then scheduling would be easier.

I agree. There is no easy solution. As long as we have the situation we do now with classes how they are, nothing we do will eliminate them.

Personally I think it would be great if people would get away from the idea that class correlates to ability and either
a) not allow teams to opt up and just have the top 64 teams in AA (and yes, put the same proportion of the biggest private schools in AA as the public have)
or
b) make the lower class the bottom 64 teams, allow opt ups and with every opt, a team gets sent down.

Either idea would essential "fix" every issue we discuss here. In one we'd have two great tournaments and in the other we'd allow bad teams an opportunity to play in front of their communities at a big venue and get lots of revenue. Outside of attitudes, I honestly can't see what would be bad about either of these.


Do I have a preference either way? Not really honestly, but I think there is at least some validity to what this could do.

[goldy313]

Just for reference in AA quaterfinal games since 2000 (56 games) ...

Only 3 times has a game been decided by 6 goals: 2004 Wayzata over Tartan, 2008 Roseau over Blaine, and 2013 Edina over Lakeville North.

No quaterfinal game has had more than a 6 goal differential.

8 quarterfinal games had a 5 goal difference.

3 times the championship game has had 6 goal or greater difference.

Meaning the odds of having a blowout championship game is higher than having a blowout quarterfinal game, 19.6% in the quarterfinals vs 21.4% in the finals.

I think Lou is looking for a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

[Nuts&Bolts]

Two things could right the ship. First, better realignment of the section every other year if not every year to find greater parity knowing what a school will have. How nothing has been done to address Section 1 is ridiculous. Secondly let any single A school ranked in the top 15 elect by Feb. 15 to move to AA in any section in the state as a play-in team. One added team per section with the highest rated team getting their choice. School picks up all the expense to travel to the standard host section locations.

So Hermantown could have seen the weakness in a Section 1 or 8 this past year, opted out of single A and the wrath of STA(A) in the state tournament, and waivered in to play with the big boys. I may be crazy but just trying to think of a better way. Section final attendance gains a lot more interest and when a single A team makes it in, we have the cherished small school versus big school battle. Had Edina played Hermantown in the quarters, there would have been a heck of a lot more interest in this game.

[Ready2GoYet]

Let Hermantown transfer as a play-in team in another section? How is this type of approach not "trophy hunting" as others, typically privates, have been repeatedly bashed for on this forum?

Why doesn't everybody just accept it for what it is--an imperfect system, where there are winners and losers, talent varies widely between sections and classes and from year-to-year, and a few people or programs will continue to take advantage of the system where they can because of a win at all costs attitude.

Use rankings? Pretty sure there will be complaints and conspiracy theories there. Redo the sections every year based upon presumed team strength? Again, who decides? And what happens when three or four of the top players on a team presumed to be a contender leave for other opportunities before the season?. Change them again? I would really doubt that section assignments will not be geographically based.

The vast majority of the kids will never make it to a state tournament, but that doesn't mean they don't enjoy their high school hockey experiences. They can have great memories and learn great life lessons without getting to St. Paul, and I worry for those that portray a season where not getting to state or not winning a championship is a failure. Not the message I want us to send to our kids.

We already have a system where every single team makes the playoffs, so in really long-stretched theory, every team in the state has their chance to get to a state tournament and win a championship (two teams in fact with our two classes). I guess I've always considered that the state tournament starts in the first round of the playoffs--just because those games are not played at the X, doesn't mean they're not worthy competition and meaningful. I would hate to see us just go straight to putting teams in the state tournament--make those teams win to get there, and give everyone a chance, so we can have those cinderalla stories now and then.