Classic Suburban ousts St. Thomas

[hockeyfan21]

Can you elaborate on this attitude you speak of?

Mostly complaints of arrogance and condescension from parents and students alike about not only the sports teams but the schools and communities. One guy told me about a parent who tried to pay admission to a bball game with a $100 bill, which they didn't have change for. He was irritated and made a crack about how he forgot he was in the poor part of MN again. I wasn't there so I have no way to verify if this is a regular attitude, but the way he and the other guy with him spoke, this is the norm.

Again, I have no horse in this race.

Did you hear about the guy that wanted to attend his kids 9th grade football game but couldn't find the valet to park his Bentley?

Nope. But I do know the guy works the admissions for BBall, and I've never had him lie or exaggerate to me before. He's not a sports guy either, just a science teacher who helps out.

[thestickler07]

Mostly complaints of arrogance and condescension from parents and students alike about not only the sports teams but the schools and communities. One guy told me about a parent who tried to pay admission to a bball game with a $100 bill, which they didn't have change for. He was irritated and made a crack about how he forgot he was in the poor part of MN again. I wasn't there so I have no way to verify if this is a regular attitude, but the way he and the other guy with him spoke, this is the norm.

Again, I have no horse in this race.

Did you hear about the guy that wanted to attend his kids 9th grade football game but couldn't find the valet to park his Bentley?

Nope. But I do know the guy works the admissions for BBall, and I've never had him lie or exaggerate to me before. He's not a sports guy either, just a science teacher who helps out.

Well I'm a sports guy that doesn't lie or exaggerate either so we'd probably be two peas in a pod.

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm not part of the conference, but from people I've talked to the issue is not as much about the dominance of St. Thomas, but the attitude of St. Thomas, which is why they have made no effort to dump Hill Murray...

Can you elaborate on this attitude you speak of?

Mostly complaints of arrogance and condescension from parents and students alike about not only the sports teams but the schools and communities. One guy told me about a parent who tried to pay admission to a bball game with a $100 bill, which they didn't have change for. He was irritated and made a crack about how he forgot he was in the poor part of MN again. I wasn't there so I have no way to verify if this is a regular attitude, but the way he and the other guy with him spoke, this is the norm.

Again, I have no horse in this race.

So, you're saying the 7 public schools have all come together and voted to kick a school out of their conference because a rich parent at the school was a prick? I highly doubt that.

While I don't hang around the ticket counter more than on my way in, my first hand experience as a student and now as a fan at many games is quite different than there being an issue with the attitude of the school. So I'm honestly curious about any information you have.

[old goalie85]

The deal is alot of folks don't want these teams around. Now I've already said"I would love to see them {and Hill} play in the SEC. Just to see game in and game out how they hold up. Football and Hockey.

[hockeyfan21]

Can you elaborate on this attitude you speak of?

Mostly complaints of arrogance and condescension from parents and students alike about not only the sports teams but the schools and communities. One guy told me about a parent who tried to pay admission to a bball game with a $100 bill, which they didn't have change for. He was irritated and made a crack about how he forgot he was in the poor part of MN again. I wasn't there so I have no way to verify if this is a regular attitude, but the way he and the other guy with him spoke, this is the norm.

Again, I have no horse in this race.

So, you're saying the 7 public schools have all come together and voted to kick a school out of their conference because a rich parent at the school was a prick? I highly doubt that.

While I don't hang around the ticket counter more than on my way in, my first hand experience as a student and now as a fan at many games is quite different than there being an issue with the attitude of the school. So I'm honestly curious about any information you have.

Tone is hard to convey sometimes, so don't read more into what I wrote. I'm not an AD, just a teacher, nor do I have any experience with St. Thomas, ive never been in their conference or coached against them. I'm not trying to troll this board or play games. Just saying that the people I've talked to who are in that conference as coaches and teachers say there is a ton of bad blood going both ways . Most of the stuff said was regarding attitude, not just the competitive level. Someone asked for an example, so I provided one that was given to me. I never said that was THE reason.

I do know this, an AD from the SEC was quoted in the paper as saying "the problem with this situation is its a school no one wants". That to me is interesting considering that the SEC plays Cretin and has made no attempts to have them removed, but rejected St. Thomas, and was pretty vehement at the MSHSL placement meeting that they did not want them in the conference.

You have to wonder why they are ok with a private school with a male enrollment of 700+ that plays 6A football and is a powerhouse, but is not okay with a private school of 500 that plays 5A. Scheduling is immensely easier for football with 10 schools instead of 9, which is what the SEC will have now without Hastings. But they still rejected STA...

[goldy313]

People have to remember, this is not just about hockey, it is all sports. St. Thomas is not dominate in every sport.

You're right it's not about hockey but it is also not about all sports. Conferences are football driven; Cretin wasn't moved because of their baseball team, likewise STA wasn't kicked out because of hockey or swimming (or else Simley should be in the same boat because of their wrestling program) 2013 was different in that STA wasn't a dominant football team but going back nearly a decade they were, not just dominant but much like Cretin not even competitive in conference play.

Hastings left the SEC because they couldn't compete in football, their hockey and wrestling teams are very competitive. The SSC was formed not because of EP's hockey team or track team. Football, with only a few exceptions, drives conferences, not every sport.

[thestickler07]

Ok so I can occasionally show some bias towards STAA but let me cook with this one (shizz will be long), and I'll try and serve up hard truths and some inside info about the Academy.

You have to wonder why they are ok with a private school with a male enrollment of 700+ that plays 6A football and is a powerhouse, but is not okay with a private school of 500 that plays 5A. Scheduling is immensely easier for football with 10 schools instead of 9, which is what the SEC will have now without Hastings. But they still rejected STA...

Because Cretin's student body isn't increasingly coming from the school districts in the SEC, not to mention that CDH is as big as it is realistically going to get, the school just can't continue to grow in terms of physical space. STAA's student body on the other hand has traditionally been drawn from all over the metro, and population growth in the south and east suburbs has naturally tilted the balance more in that direction. For a lot of the SEC/SSC schools the approach to CDH is better the devil you know, considering the Raiders are a known commodity and haven't/aren't undergoing large demographic shifts. SEC/SCC don't want to invite competition for students into their athletic competitions because it only increases exposure for places like STAA. CDH doesn't pose the same type of threat because its student body is more geographically concentrated in the city of St. Paul more so than the surrounding suburbs.

STAA's future is a big wild card because while the school is still small in terms of students and physical space, the campus itself sprawls with plenty of room for expansion. CDH built their big fieldhouse facility and classroom complex roughly a decade ago, and CDH's tuition since 2006 has increased less than 20%. During that same time STAA has added a ~18 classroom middle school and just finished the new Flynn Center, while it's tuition has almost doubled to $18,700, the tuition fact is particularly important as I'll show later.

STAA released a master development plan in the early 2000s that outlined 3 definite (with a possible 4th) phases that would allow the school to add and modernize a building that frankly hadn't been touched nearly at all since it's construction in the 1960s and was woefully undersized.
Phase 1: The middle school/library (completed early 2000s)
Phase 2:Fieldhouse/Student Center (completed spring 2013)
Phase 3: Main building renovation/expansion (coming soon)

Fundraising had been difficult for awhile due to the financial crisis and internal staff turmoil at the Academy in the early part of the decade, but with Vince Flynn, a host of other high profile trustees and others on board taking the lead things took off for the last parts of the project. The 3rd phase already has behind the scenes pledges and donations being made, and will be the most ambitious undertaking for the Academy yet, as not only expands the current building, but remodels the entire interior of the current space. This move addresses classroom space and facilities as well as increased demand for education at STAA. Going back to the tuition increases, when you can get away with inching up tuition during a financial meltdown on a path to nearly double it in a decade that can only realistically be sustained by a large increase in demand, which has been filled by the rapid growth of the suburbs that STAA is in close proximity to. STAA has long said it does not want to increase enrollment, and that has been largely true, but its mostly a product of being unable to accommodate more students at the standards they had set for so long. If they were to add another 20-25 classrooms/labs suddenly you could have class sizes pushing 200 per class which would put them north of 1,600 students according to the MSHSL, and it makes a lot more sense to grow the student body to keep pace with demand.

And that brings me to the final (proposed) phase of STAA's development plan, which I'm sure will only pour gasoline on a grease fire at this point but here goes. A large number of STAA alumni live out of the metro/state, but there is a high level of loyalty and attachment to a place that has given so many young men so much throughout the generations. If you look at an aerial shot of the campus you'll notice a collection of smaller buildings on Rogers Lake that serve as development offices and other storage currently. Well with all of those offices being moved to the newly renovated main building they will be vacant, and a plan has been floated to return the Academy to its roots and open its doors to boarding students. A large number of influential alumni have voiced support for the idea and its very likely if phase 3 goes off without a hitch. Kids of alumni from all over the country would supplement the day student contingent and could push STAA's class sizes even higher. So the STAA of even 15 years ago might look radically different still 15 more years from now.

The Academy is no doubt ambitious, and they are currently searching for a new headmaster as well. I have heard a lot of names that would be unconventional choices to say the least, and a lot of them are from the eastern US, where you are all aware that boarding education is vastly more common than here in the Midwest.

For all the lovers and the haters of the Academy, stay tuned. The next 15 years have a pretty good chance to be even more exciting than the past 15.

[stpaul]

Very interesting post. STA is a great school with a great history and appears to have a great future. However...

They more than deserve the criticism. They should have moved to AA in hockey several years ago. They didn't need to win 5 A titles before having enough evidence that belong in AA.

They don't belong in the CSC. They are 52-4 in conference football in the past 8 years. They are 5-11 vs. Hill-Murray in hockey and 100-2-3 against everyone else the past 8 years.

They should have been asking the MSHSL to move them "up" to the SEC or the SSC. Your post shows that they will continue to pile up lopsided victories in football and hockey every year in the Metro East. What's the point of playing such lower level competition in 7 of 8 scheduled football games and 10 (12 conf games excluding 2 vs HM) of 25 hockey games?

[almostashappy]

SEC/SCC don't want to invite competition for students into their athletic competitions because it only increases exposure for places like STAA.

Well, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to it (I'm assuming you meant SSC?).

I accept the SSC's explanation at face value:

"We don't anticipate or look forward to the admission of a private school," George Vasiliou, executive secretary of the 10-school South Suburban Conference, said Wednesday, April 17. "We like the public-school look."

I've cited some other good reasons for SSC to have rejected STA's application in previous threads. It'd create an odd number of teams, the league would have to deal with a member only having boys sports, and it would create conference schedules too large to leave much room for non-conference games. Now, the SSC could work around all of these problems, but why bring on the hassle? What does STA bring to the table that the SSC doesn't already have? Fans decked out in spiffy uniforms and a palatial ice rink?

As for wanting to avoid exposure to STA's teams for fear of losing students by suffering in comparison...the idea that SSC school kids (especially Eagan kids) don't already know about STA is very, very silly. I know more than a few Eagan families who have (or have had) one son attend STA, and another EHS. Eagan families also send kids to CDH and Holy Angels...if sports was the only reason to go private, why would they do that?

[hockeyfan21]

Stickler,
Good post, very informative. I would ask that if all of the stuff they are trying to do comes to fruition, how would the "metro east" be a good fit?

I didn't realize tuition was that close to $20k. There is no way demographically they are similar to any of the public schools in that conference. Much more of a SSC, SEC fit in my opinion.

I saw the quote from the SSC about likening their public school conference. I wondered if that would backfire in the placement meeting, but I guess not.

[thestickler07]

They should have been asking the MSHSL to move them "up" to the SEC or the SSC. Your post shows that they will continue to pile up lopsided victories in football and hockey every year in the Metro East. What's the point of playing such lower level competition in 7 of 8 scheduled football games and 10 (12 conf games excluding 2 vs HM) of 25 hockey games?

They applied to both the SSC and the SEC and were rejected.

Also while some of their marquee programs (football, basketball, hockey) have been successful they have a lot of athletic teams that struggle mightily (wrestling, track/field, etc) and a lot of teams that aren't as publicized that have done well (Alpine Skiing, Swimming/Diving). STAA preaches balance in education and athletics; all coaches encourage kids to play multiple sports and not specialize and this policy extended to top level administrative decisions as well. Former AD Jack Zahr took a ton of heat for not opting up in hockey earlier than he did because of the institutional emphasis on not giving any particular team special treatment, but STAA had already rattled off 8 swimming state titles before the hockey team had won its first and there was no outcry. That's understandable considering hockey having a higher profile in the state, but it illustrates the lengths to which the administration went to stick to its principles.

[thestickler07]

Well, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to it (I'm assuming you meant SSC?).

Yes I meant the SSC, and yea its my opinion. That's why I have the disclaimer as the first line of the post.

I accept the SSC's explanation at face value

I've cited some other good reasons for SSC to have rejected STA's application in previous threads. It'd create an odd number of teams, the league would have to deal with a member only having boys sports, and it would create conference schedules too large to leave much room for non-conference games. Now, the SSC could work around all of these problems, but why bring on the hassle? What does STA bring to the table that the SSC doesn't already have? Fans decked out in spiffy uniforms and a palatial ice rink?

I could make a crack about incompetence but suffice to say none of these issues could even remotely be considered major.

As for wanting to avoid exposure to STA's teams for fear of losing students by suffering in comparison...the idea that SSC school kids (especially Eagan kids) don't already know about STA is very, very silly.

And that straw man is very very bad. If you are in the same conference as STAA you will see them more, and be exposed to everything they do more, and be more aware of their ongoing business, that's part of being in a conference. Also there's the larger fact that media outlets disproportionally cover the larger school leagues (Lake, SSC, SEC, NWSC, etc) if STAA was going head to head with Rosemount/Lakeville South week in and week out instead of Simley/South St. Paul that's only going to increase awareness about the school. Why did the SEC want Texas A&M/Mizzou? It gave them more exposure in those areas, and subsequently you have people in Alabama/Georgia/Florida talking about the Aggies and the Tigers more than they have before.

I know more than a few Eagan families who have (or have had) one son attend STA, and another EHS. Eagan families also send kids to CDH and Holy Angels...if sports was the only reason to go private, why would they do that?

Who brought this up? Or is this an unrelated tangential question independent of any point I made?

[thestickler07]

Stickler,
Good post, very informative. I would ask that if all of the stuff they are trying to do comes to fruition, how would the "metro east" be a good fit?

I didn't realize tuition was that close to $20k. There is no way demographically they are similar to any of the public schools in that conference. Much more of a SSC, SEC fit in my opinion.

I saw the quote from the SSC about likening their public school conference. I wondered if that would backfire in the placement meeting, but I guess not.

You have no disagreement from me, I want them opting up in all sports and in the SEC/SSC.

[almostashappy]

As for wanting to avoid exposure to STA's teams for fear of losing students by suffering in comparison...the idea that SSC school kids (especially Eagan kids) don't already know about STA is very, very silly.

And that straw man is very very bad. If you are in the same conference as STAA you will see them more, and be exposed to everything they do more, and be more aware of their ongoing business, that's part of being in a conference. Also there's the larger fact that media outlets disproportionally cover the larger school leagues (Lake, SSC, SEC, NWSC, etc) if STAA was going head to head with Rosemount/Lakeville South week in and week out instead of Simley/South St. Paul that's only going to increase awareness about the school. Why did the SEC want Texas A&M/Mizzou? It gave them more exposure in those areas, and subsequently you have people in Alabama/Georgia/Florida talking about the Aggies and the Tigers more than they have before.

It was your straw man, not mine. You said that the reason why SSC didn't want STAA in the conference was, "SEC/SCC don't want to invite competition for students into their athletic competitions because it only increases exposure for places like STAA." While it is obviously true that STAA in SSC would increase SSC student contact with STAA and its students, that doesn't mean that absent that athletic competition exposure that SSC students and their families don't already know enough about STAA to make informed decisions about high school options. I really, really, doubt that the SSC school administrations are cowering away from interaction with STAA because they're afraid that they'll lose students as a result (especially when they see STAA's tuition doubling).

As for media coverage, the idea that STAA probably suffered because it was in the CSC was probably true (to an infinitesimal degree). But that doesn't mean that STAA wasn't already getting as much or more coverage than big public schools like those in the SSC. As far as hockey coverage goes, the fact that STAA wasn't playing in AA was far more of a factor than the fact that it was in the CSC (unless you count negative media coverage). You want prime time Tourney coverage? Other than Day 1, gotta play in AA. Same applies if it's football that you're talking about...if STAA was allowed into the SSC, would it man-up and play 6A (like CDH) or stay down at 5A? You can harp on "week in/week out" regular season media exposure all you want, but nobody really pays attention until sections start. Hey here's a suggestion...if you want to increase STAA's local media exposure, do what the Mpls schools do and play all of your home football games in the afternoon, so they're done in time for the 6 o'clock news.

As for why the SEC expanded into Missouri, or why B1G added Rutgers or Maryland...it wasn't a bid to gain exposure in these areas, in the hope of recruiting new students. It's all about television revenue, and the increased number of eyeballs watching the Big 10 Network, or (next year) the SEC network.

I know more than a few Eagan families who have (or have had) one son attend STA, and another EHS. Eagan families also send kids to CDH and Holy Angels...if sports was the only reason to go private, why would they do that?

Who brought this up? Or is this an unrelated tangential question independent of any point I made?

You brought this up, when you suggested that STAA joining the SSC and playing athletic contests against Eagan/Rsmt/Lakeville South would give STAA a boost in the "competition for students." Maybe you think that exposure from athletic competitions is a foot-in-the-door that would make SSC students more likely to take a closer look at STAA? My point was that there are some very good reasons for some students and their families to choose private schools over public schools. And within the realm of private schools, there are some very good reasons why some students are better off at STAA than at HA or CDH. It's not right for every kid (which is why some families send 1 kid to STAA, and keep another in a public school). And the chance to play on successful well-coached athletic teams is one only of those reasons (and a minor one at that).

Again, you've offered an opinion on why the SSC wouldn't want STAA to join the conference. But why would they? What would they gain that would offset the hassles? Is the SSC really suffering in terms of quality football or hockey programs?

[stpaul]

They applied to both the SSC and the SEC and were rejected.

They argued for placement back in the Metro East at the MSHSL meeting after being rejected by all 3 conferences.

[thestickler07]

It was your straw man, not mine. You said that the reason why SSC didn't want STAA in the conference was, "SEC/SCC don't want to invite competition for students into their athletic competitions because it only increases exposure for places like STAA." While it is obviously true that STAA in SSC would increase SSC student contact with STAA and its students, that doesn't mean that absent that athletic competition exposure that SSC students and their families don't already know enough about STAA to make informed decisions about high school options. I really, really, doubt that the SSC school administrations are cowering away from interaction with STAA because they're afraid that they'll lose students as a result (especially when they see STAA's tuition doubling).

TLDR: you don't know the meaning of strawman. You really really doubt that SSC schools don't want to invite more competition into the conference, that's your opinion I've already stated mine. I don't know where you are going with this.

As for media coverage, the idea that STAA probably suffered because it was in the CSC was probably true (to an infinitesimal degree). But that doesn't mean that STAA wasn't already getting as much or more coverage than big public schools like those in the SSC. As far as hockey coverage goes, the fact that STAA wasn't playing in AA was far more of a factor than the fact that it was in the CSC (unless you count negative media coverage). You want prime time Tourney coverage? Other than Day 1, gotta play in AA. Same applies if it's football that you're talking about...if STAA was allowed into the SSC, would it man-up and play 6A (like CDH) or stay down at 5A? You can harp on "week in/week out" regular season media exposure all you want, but nobody really pays attention until sections start. Hey here's a suggestion...if you want to increase STAA's local media exposure, do what the Mpls schools do and play all of your home football games in the afternoon, so they're done in time for the 6 o'clock news.

I wouldn't say suffered as much as could've benefited more.

As for why the SEC expanded into Missouri, or why B1G added Rutgers or Maryland...it wasn't a bid to gain exposure in these areas, in the hope of recruiting new students. It's all about television revenue, and the increased number of eyeballs watching the Big 10 Network, or (next year) the SEC network.

You are in the fight of your life right now to not agree with me on anything.

Again, you've offered an opinion on why the SSC wouldn't want STAA to join the conference. But why would they? What would they gain that would offset the hassles? Is the SSC really suffering in terms of quality football or hockey programs?

To help out their public school bros in the CSC that are getting their s*** pushed so bad every year that they kicked STAA out.

[slacsap]

almost as happy wrote:

I've cited some other good reasons for SSC to have rejected STA's application in previous threads. It'd create an odd number of teams, the league would have to deal with a member only having boys sports, and it would create conference schedules too large to leave much room for non-conference games. Now, the SSC could work around all of these problems, but why bring on the hassle? What does STA bring to the table that the SSC doesn't already have? Fans decked out in spiffy uniforms and a palatial ice rink?

Very good points! You are absolutely correct that these are good reasons why STA was not a good fit for the SSC. However, all of thes points are also true of the CSC/Metro East,

[hockeyfan21]

They applied to both the SSC and the SEC and were rejected.

They argued for placement back in the Metro East at the MSHSL meeting after being rejected by all 3 conferences.

I know a guy that was in the room, this is 100% true.

This is the part that confuses me. If STAA wants to be treated "like the big boys", why didn't they push to be in the SEC. Makes much more sense (9 schools, traditional rival in CDH, much closer demographics) than Metro East.

It does make it look like they want to beat up on softer competition. This is the stuff that leads to them being labelled as "trophy chasers"...

[thestickler07]

They applied to both the SSC and the SEC and were rejected.

They argued for placement back in the Metro East at the MSHSL meeting after being rejected by all 3 conferences.

I know a guy that was in the room, this is 100% true.

This is the part that confuses me. If STAA wants to be treated "like the big boys", why didn't they push to be in the SEC. Makes much more sense (9 schools, traditional rival in CDH, much closer demographics) than Metro East.

It does make it look like they want to beat up on softer competition. This is the stuff that leads to them being labelled as "trophy chasers"...

I know guys that were in that room too. People just see what they want I guess.

[hockeyfan21]

They argued for placement back in the Metro East at the MSHSL meeting after being rejected by all 3 conferences.

I know a guy that was in the room, this is 100% true.

This is the part that confuses me. If STAA wants to be treated "like the big boys", why didn't they push to be in the SEC. Makes much more sense (9 schools, traditional rival in CDH, much closer demographics) than Metro East.

It does make it look like they want to beat up on softer competition. This is the stuff that leads to them being labelled as "trophy chasers"...

I know guys that were in that room too. People just see what they want I guess.

Are you saying they didn't request to be placed in the Metro East? That is relatively easy information to verify objectively.

[stpaul]

Pioneer Press 10/21/13


"In a closed-door meeting, St. Thomas Academy made its final pitch to the MSHSL's placement committee on why it should be a member of the newly created Metro East Conference."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_243 ... nce-ruling

[HShockeywatcher]

Pioneer Press 10/21/13


"In a closed-door meeting, St. Thomas Academy made its final pitch to the MSHSL's placement committee on why it should be a member of the newly created Metro East Conference."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_243 ... nce-ruling

Anyone can discuss opinions any way they want to here. Personally, I wish they would've been placed in the SEC. But ultimately, I also think the Metro East is the all around best fit. Sure, they won't be challenged in a swim meet for a while, but aside from that, it's similar size and distance makes it a good fit for all sports.

While you'd have to be ignoring what's actually happened to think they'd been anywhere close to dominant in football recently, this discussion isn't about one sport. If it were, almost every school should be kicked out for a different sport. It's about a balance for all sports.

[HShockeywatcher]

Tone is hard to convey sometimes, so don't read more into what I wrote. I'm not an AD, just a teacher, nor do I have any experience with St. Thomas, ive never been in their conference or coached against them. I'm not trying to troll this board or play games. Just saying that the people I've talked to who are in that conference as coaches and teachers say there is a ton of bad blood going both ways . Most of the stuff said was regarding attitude, not just the competitive level. Someone asked for an example, so I provided one that was given to me. I never said that was THE reason.

You have to wonder why they are ok with a private school with a male enrollment of 700+ that plays 6A football and is a powerhouse, but is not okay with a private school of 500 that plays 5A. Scheduling is immensely easier for football with 10 schools instead of 9, which is what the SEC will have now without Hastings. But they still rejected STA...

In my experience most of the "bad blood" leaving the walls is in response to others. But I also don't see it in any forms other than effort on the field, a return chant or something similar.

People inside the building wonder just as much. What happens at the Academy is much different than the things said about it. I'm not saying anything will be solved in this thread, but it is always nice to hear other perspectives.

[stpaul]

Sadly it appears that this is not over. Simley's AD has said that they will now look into leaving the Metro East because of STA being added back in. The Metro East could collapse again. I think that STA and the MSHSL made a big mistake.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_245 ... -east-that

[stpaul]

While you'd have to be ignoring what's actually happened to think they'd been anywhere close to dominant in football recently

52-4 in the last 8 seasons in the CSC is pretty dominant. We're talking about the CSC/Metro East, not about how they've done in State playoffs.