***** How Much Does Size Matter and Is It Changing *****

[Granttenn]

How Much Does Size Matter & Is it Changing for College and USHL

Does anyone else feel that we are seeing a trend either way with respect for it being harder or easier for smaller, lighter players (F’s) to catch the attention of Colleges or the USHL. [Not like the change in goalie height in the last decade in NHL but still.]

In high school, the dazzling players seem to be the 5'7 160 lbs. guys and it seems like there are an endless supply of the Labosky type or Tyler Cline, Sheehy, Kloos, Guentzel, Kyle Rau, the Michaud's & the Gorowsky's, Bianchi, Alex Funk, Strand and on and on - who are putting up the pts.

However, the USHL seems even more finicky despite the overwhelming success of the little three - Guentzel (Rookie of Yr), Kloos, and Taylor Cammarata (scoring leader.) It seemed like those three may have set the tone for more tolerance for the smaller guys in this year’s draft but it seemed to go the other way. I watched a number of the smaller H.S. guys go unexpectedly undrafted or drafted really late (undrafted Tyler Cline, the Michauds, & the Gorowsky’s - or Mario Bianchi, who tore up the Elite League, but barely got drafted.) Is it like if you’re small and a clear star, you’re in but after that the smaller guys have to work even harder to make it than in the past? With fighting and probably more rough stuff permitted in the USHL than in college, they likely have reason to like size more - but is it changing?

If there has been a trend in last 5-10 yrs, does it seem to be in the same direction for both college and USHL? With the success of the Kyle Rau’s and Boston College’s absolutely sick Johnny Gaudreau at 5-8” 153 lbs. it seems like, again, it’s tolerable with the stars but the preference is still size and girth i.e. Nick Bjugstad’s - but maybe not as much as with the USHL?

Again, if there has been a change, how are H.S. kids approaching this size/strength factor in their development? Is weight training and putting on bulk gaining in popularity for the smaller guys or do they go with what they have and enjoy the quickness? How about like the NDTP (SP?) have they changed their focus either when selecting and/or when training/developing the smaller guys?

I guess what made me think of this is watching the Elite League (Kloos and Guentzel blowing up the EL 2 yrs ago didn’t hurt) and MN Select camps since returning from AZ 4 years ago and seeing what seemed like so many more of these little, buzzing, phenoms flying around right beside a bunch of 5’10 185” kids, which seemed more like the kids that I remembered from my H.S days.. Plus, unlike hoops or football, hockey is a sport where you're not slotted to position by size so how does it affect the game when there is so much variance in size/height playing side by side? Just an interesting dynamic to me..

Anyone else noticing changes in HS, USHL or the college game/players. Any feedback is appreciated.


p.s.

[For mudslingers like Bodyshots & Co, I am just trying to generate some interesting dialogue about a topic not discussed much – Thanks in advance for your non-feedback]


=

[Deep Breath]

From what i have seen and who i have spoken with (coaches, scouts, etc), it seems clear that size doesn't matter near as much as it used to. Obviously, if you are a 6'4" defensemen, your size will get you a look. But, coaches that i have spoken with are looking for kids that skate and play with the puck. Seems pretty simple, hands and feet. The stats 2 years ago in D1 seem to point to that a little bit as well, at least for the forwards The numbers below represent all forwards in D1 for the 2011-12 season. The first set of figures is for players 5'10" and under; the second # is players 5'11" and under. More than a 3rd of all forwards playing D1 hockey that year were listed at 5'10" or smaller. For the 2005-06 season, that percentage was at 26. Again, size will get you a look but if you can't skate well or play with the puck, a look is probably all you're gonna get.

WCHA: 59 of 182 - 32% 88 of 182 - 48%
CCHA: 59 of 168 - 35% 89 of 168 - 53%
ECHA: 62 of 190 - 33% 101 of 190 - 53%
Hockey East: 49 of 156 - 31% 82 of 156 - 53%
Atlantic: 69 of 183 - 38% 103 of 183 - 56%
Ind: 5 of 13 - 38% 8 of 13 - 62%
58 Teams: 303 of 892 - 34% 471 of 892 - 53%

[Puckguy19]

How Much Does Size Matter & Is it Changing for College and USHL

Does anyone else feel that we are seeing a trend either way with respect for it being harder or easier for smaller, lighter players (F’s) to catch the attention of Colleges or the USHL. [Not like the change in goalie height in the last decade in NHL but still.]

In high school, the dazzling players seem to be the 5'7 160 lbs. guys and it seems like there are an endless supply of the Labosky type or Tyler Cline, Sheehy, Kloos, Guentzel, Kyle Rau, the Michaud's & the Gorowsky's, Bianchi, Alex Funk, Strand and on and on - who are putting up the pts.

However, the USHL seems even more finicky despite the overwhelming success of the little three - Guentzel (Rookie of Yr), Kloos, and Taylor Cammarata (scoring leader.) It seemed like those three may have set the tone for more tolerance for the smaller guys in this year’s draft but it seemed to go the other way. I watched a number of the smaller H.S. guys go unexpectedly undrafted or drafted really late (undrafted Tyler Cline, the Michauds, & the Gorowsky’s - or Mario Bianchi, who tore up the Elite League, but barely got drafted.) Is it like if you’re small and a clear star, you’re in but after that the smaller guys have to work even harder to make it than in the past? With fighting and probably more rough stuff permitted in the USHL than in college, they likely have reason to like size more - but is it changing?

If there has been a trend in last 5-10 yrs, does it seem to be in the same direction for both college and USHL? With the success of the Kyle Rau’s and Boston College’s absolutely sick Johnny Gaudreau at 5-8” 153 lbs. it seems like, again, it’s tolerable with the stars but the preference is still size and girth i.e. Nick Bjugstad’s - but maybe not as much as with the USHL?

Again, if there has been a change, how are H.S. kids approaching this size/strength factor in their development? Is weight training and putting on bulk gaining in popularity for the smaller guys or do they go with what they have and enjoy the quickness? How about like the NDTP (SP?) have they changed their focus either when selecting and/or when training/developing the smaller guys?

I guess what made me think of this is watching the Elite League (Kloos and Guentzel blowing up the EL 2 yrs ago didn’t hurt) and MN Select camps since returning from AZ 4 years ago and seeing what seemed like so many more of these little, buzzing, phenoms flying around right beside a bunch of 5’10 185” kids, which seemed more like the kids that I remembered from my H.S days.. Plus, unlike hoops or football, hockey is a sport where you're not slotted to position by size so how does it affect the game when there is so much variance in size/height playing side by side? Just an interesting dynamic to me..

Anyone else noticing changes in HS, USHL or the college game/players. Any feedback is appreciated.


p.s.

[For mudslingers like Bodyshots & Co, I am just trying to generate some interesting dialogue about a topic not discussed much – Thanks in advance for your non-feedback]



=

If someone tells you size doesn't matter, she's lying to you!

[Mite-dad]

IMVHO, I think the small kid who develops fast and gains his coordination quicker has the early advantage. For example, my kid and the neighbor kid are classic. The neighbor is about 5' 8" and 180 pounds, and has pretty much had a man's body for a couple years. My kid is 6' 2" 180 and is still growing. Is athletic but you can tell his coordination is still coming. The neighbor is already there. A lot of bigger kids don't gain their coordination until quite a bit later. I think that is why it seems that the smaller guys, in general, are more polished players at the high school ages. Once you get beyond that, the big guys catch up. I think most college or NHL teams would rather have a bigger guy than a smaller guy if they have the same level of skill. Its just harder to recruit the big guy with skill because a lot of them develop later.

[C-dad]

If someone tells you size doesn't matter, she's lying to you!

Are you calling my wife a liar??!!!

[Granttenn]

From what i have seen and who i have spoken with (coaches, scouts, etc), it seems clear that size doesn't matter near as much as it used to. Obviously, if you are a 6'4" defensemen, your size will get you a look. But, coaches that i have spoken with are looking for kids that skate and play with the puck. Seems pretty simple, hands and feet. The stats 2 years ago in D1 seem to point to that a little bit as well, at least for the forwards The numbers below represent all forwards in D1 for the 2011-12 season. The first set of figures is for players 5'10" and under; the second # is players 5'11" and under. More than a 3rd of all forwards playing D1 hockey that year were listed at 5'10" or smaller. For the 2005-06 season, that percentage was at 26. Again, size will get you a look but if you can't skate well or play with the puck, a look is probably all you're gonna get.

WCHA: 59 of 182 - 32% 88 of 182 - 48%
CCHA: 59 of 168 - 35% 89 of 168 - 53%
ECHA: 62 of 190 - 33% 101 of 190 - 53%
Hockey East: 49 of 156 - 31% 82 of 156 - 53%
Atlantic: 69 of 183 - 38% 103 of 183 - 56%
Ind: 5 of 13 - 38% 8 of 13 - 62%
58 Teams: 303 of 892 - 34% 471 of 892 - 53%

Great feedback. I'm a data guy so good stuff...Thanks

Just to show you how much of a geek I am, I am computing body density (weight/height) for all the Elite league players (and segmenting by Yr i.e. SO, JR, SR) and then I'm going to look at scoring data at the end of season. Of courses I have to watch out for some bias issues but should be interesting (to me)...Any suggestions about doing a study like this? I thought I would go by density rather than by height because if you're 5'8" 190 you would probably fit more in the 'big' category......

Also, good point by the other guy about taller kids taking longer to grow into body and coordination - I remember a couple of years ago a scout was talking about Jack Ramsey at 6'2.5" and saying he still had a little trouble handling the puck and skating isn't as coordinated etc and then like 6 months later I hear the U of M tenders him and I'm thinking??? Obviously they are projecting and there is likely an art to knowing if a kid is heading in the right direction or coming along fast enough in that respect.

I also talked to Bo Brauers camp at start of last year's Elite League and person was saying kid went through a growth spurt (6'2") so still growing into frame will likely have to spend a couple years in Juniors and then he ends up 2nd in Elite League scoring but as a bizarre follow up when he got back to Edina he was mainly down on 2nd line (rather than slotting him with Hurley/Malquist which would seem like perfect line) and he only had 4G and 12 A in reg season (no Injuries known of).. How do you finish second in EL scoring and then score 16 pts in your next HS season. Still dealing with growth spurt issues?? Or fit with Edina's system/Linemates???

-

[bstarr15]

I liked Bo in the elite league and was bummed
to see his playing time diminish at Edina.
The reason he was 2nd in scoring was his 2
line mates from Lourdes. Sameulson was
top 5 in asst. Funk was leading the league in
points at the half way mark and then got hurt
against team Wis. and ended up tied for 10th in
scoring playing only half the games.
Is Brauer playing NAHL or where??
I've lost track but his size was nice but the little
skat bugs that have the speed and shooting
usually win out.
Catch me if you can.

[Granttenn]

I liked Bo in the elite league and was bummed
to see his playing time diminish at Edina.
The reason he was 2nd in scoring was his 2
line mates from Lourdes. Sameulson was
top 5 in asst. Funk was leading the league in
points at the half way mark and then got hurt
against team Wis. and ended up tied for 10th in
scoring playing only half the games.
Is Brauer playing NAHL or where??
I've lost track but his size was nice but the little
skat bugs that have the speed and shooting
usually win out.
Catch me if you can.

I didn't see many of Bo's games in the EL but I kinda figured his high point total may have had to do with playing with a couple of smaller playmaking kids who can then feed the big kid who has an easier time hanging around the goal without getting decamped - plus probably had a rocket of a shot once set up by Funk/Samuelson also...

Last I saw, Bo was drafted Port Huron of NAHL. He was the 7th pick of the 2nd Round.. I bet he's like Jay Dickman though, speaking of big HS kids, and works his way into USHL before all is said and done.. At least I hope so, I heard he was a great kid (and I'm not an Edina fan, in the least.)

=

[C-dad]

I liked Bo in the elite league and was bummed
to see his playing time diminish at Edina.
The reason he was 2nd in scoring was his 2
line mates from Lourdes. Sameulson was
top 5 in asst. Funk was leading the league in
points at the half way mark and then got hurt
against team Wis. and ended up tied for 10th in
scoring playing only half the games.
Is Brauer playing NAHL or where??
I've lost track but his size was nice but the little
skat bugs that have the speed and shooting
usually win out.
Catch me if you can.

I didn't see many of Bo's games in the EL so I figured his high point total may have had to do with playing with a couple of smaller playmaking kids who can then feed the big kid who has an easier time hanging around the goal without getting decamped - plus probably had a rocket of a shot once set up by Funk/Samuelson also...

Same thing kind of happened to my godson - his Soph yr in HS he was blessed to play on 1st line w/ two D1 type older guys and they all worked the puck extremely well and thus he had plenty of scoring chances. However, next year he starts on 1st line again but there were really good 3 wingers on line but no real center so they bring up true center & he goes down to anchor 2nd line but w/ much weaker linemates, respectfully, and as a big rugged winger if your line isn't working the puck it's a lot harder to create your own goals than for these littler jitterbugs.. Thus his point total didn't follow the trajectory we thought it would.. Sounds like that is what may of happened to Bo as well - only thing I can think of...

Last I saw, Bo was drafted Port Huron of NAHL. He was the 7th pick of the 2nd Round.. I bet he's like Jay Dickman though, speaking of big HS kids, and works his way into USHL before all is said and done.. At least I hope so, I heard he was a great kid (and I'm not an Edina fan, in the least.)

=

Bo is a great kid from a couple of great parents. Wish him all the best.

[Gopher Blog]

I think some of the size variables you see in college hockey are due to early NHL departures. Let's face it, it is pretty rare to see a guy that is 5'6 to 5'10 leaving for the NHL/AHL after only a year or two of college hockey. The smaller player is far more likely to be a 4 year player.

This isn't unique to any one program but the big name programs that generally land the bigger, NHL prospects have dealt with a lot early departures since 2005 or so. Once the NHL collective bargaining agreement made it cheaper to sign prospects, it made it tougher for college teams to hang on to those NHL prospect types (who tend to be bigger since the NHL prefers that). That roster instability can hurt those coaches/teams as they try to maintain a high level of success.

I think this has caused coaches to adapt (Lucia being a prime example) as they seem more interested in the smaller high end skill guys than maybe they had been in the past. It allows them to maintain more roster predictability/consistency from one season to the next and it should lead to a better situation. Boston College has arguably been the best college program in the last 10 or so years and many of its key components in that time were small skill guys that stuck around for most/all of their eligibility. That model has worked very well for them.

That's not to say college programs will now ignore the bigger prospects. I just think we will see some more balance between big player/small player than maybe what we have seen in a while.

[bstarr15]

gopher blog I think that was great insight.
C-dad, Bo is a great kid and parents. I checked Port Huron's roster but do not see him listed. I hope he got picked up some place he deserves a chance to play.

[The Best in the Bizz3]

gopher blog I think that was great insight.
C-dad, Bo is a great kid and parents. I checked Port Huron's roster but do not see him listed. I hope he got picked up some place he deserves a chance to play.

Bo is currently playing for the Penticton Vees of the BCHL and should have a great year!

[bstarr15]

Great to hear thanks. Had a nephew from Vancouver that played there and at Burnaby Bulldogs some years ago. I'll look to follow.

[C-dad]

gopher blog I think that was great insight.
C-dad, Bo is a great kid and parents. I checked Port Huron's roster but do not see him listed. I hope he got picked up some place he deserves a chance to play.

Bo is currently playing for the Penticton Vees of the BCHL and should have a great year!

He's not listed on their roster?

ETA: Another site has him on the Naniamo Clippers of BCHL although he's not showing on their roster either.

[JSR]

From what i have seen and who i have spoken with (coaches, scouts, etc), it seems clear that size doesn't matter near as much as it used to. Obviously, if you are a 6'4" defensemen, your size will get you a look. But, coaches that i have spoken with are looking for kids that skate and play with the puck. Seems pretty simple, hands and feet. The stats 2 years ago in D1 seem to point to that a little bit as well, at least for the forwards The numbers below represent all forwards in D1 for the 2011-12 season. The first set of figures is for players 5'10" and under; the second # is players 5'11" and under. More than a 3rd of all forwards playing D1 hockey that year were listed at 5'10" or smaller. For the 2005-06 season, that percentage was at 26. Again, size will get you a look but if you can't skate well or play with the puck, a look is probably all you're gonna get.

WCHA: 59 of 182 - 32% 88 of 182 - 48%
CCHA: 59 of 168 - 35% 89 of 168 - 53%
ECHA: 62 of 190 - 33% 101 of 190 - 53%
Hockey East: 49 of 156 - 31% 82 of 156 - 53%
Atlantic: 69 of 183 - 38% 103 of 183 - 56%
Ind: 5 of 13 - 38% 8 of 13 - 62%
58 Teams: 303 of 892 - 34% 471 of 892 - 53%

Great stats but I've looked at these numbers as well and you went for 5'11" and under and 5'10" and under, but you will notice something when you get to 5'8" the numbers all but disappear. My research showed that you can definitely get to the D1 stage at 5'9" and taller but if you are 5'8" or shorter it is a statistical improbability with very very few players being 5'8" and shorter, there are a few but 5'9" seems to be sort of a cutoff point

[Gopher Blog]

The problem with looking at those heights though is you assume they are accurate across the board. I think it is fair to say a decent portion of players/teams fudge those numbers to make guys seem taller. I know Central Scouting measures kids during their draft year but I think some of the rosters still list incorrect measurements.

[JSR]

The problem with looking at those heights though is you assume they are accurate across the board. I think it is fair to say a decent portion of players/teams fudge those numbers to make guys seem taller. I know Central Scouting measures kids during their draft year but I think some of the rosters still list incorrect measurements.

I agree numbers tend to be fudged but they are fudged across the board for all schools and all players of all heights, but rarely more than one inch, so I still think 5'9" is still the safe bet cut off line to have a statistical chance at playing D1

[TheSiouxSuck]

Size is something that scouts and pro teams will never stop valuing. Take Johnny Gaudreau as an example. He excels because his speed, puck skills, vision, acceleration are generally superior to those he's playing with and against. As you continue to move up in hockey, the advantages he has in those skills are going to get smaller and smaller as he moves to the NHL level. At that level EVERYONE has elite skills. And when you're suddenly not that much better than everyone else, those guys who are 6'2 can keep pace with you and knock you off the puck.

Thats why scouts start looking at things you cant teach, such as size. Players with big frames have the ability to put on more muscle. They also have a much longer reach making for a bigger target to pass to, and an added ability to protect the puck.

Players like Gaudreau project only as a scorer. No one is going to make room on their roster for a 5'6 3rd line grinder. If his skills are unable to win him a top 6 role on a team, he's going to be sent down. However if a kid like Bjugstad's skills dont immediately translate into a top 6 role, he's still got the size to be an effective bottom six forward.

Want proof? Go look at the stats of guys like Ryan Duncan, Brian Bonin, Jeff Panzer. They all won the Hobey and piled on the points in college and Bonin is the only one to have even dressed for an NHL game. There's a guy who's lead every single league he's ever played in scoring and has a completely empty stat line in the Show.

Even plugs like Chris Dingman, Chris Simon, and Bob Probert who's sole job in the Pro's was to play 6 minutes a night and pummel the opposition with their fists scored 30, 40 , 50 goals playing Major Junior.

Point is, when drafting 18 year olds trying to project how their skills are going to develop by the time they're 24 and competing for the roster spot, one thing that cant be taught or developed in that time is their frame. They either have it, or dont.

**Correction, Panzer was runner up to Ryan Miller in Hobey Voting, but he did lead the NCAA in scoring that year. So... Close enough.

[Deep Breath]

Again, though, topic was started based on college and USHL. It is clear that players, at least forwards, have gotten smaller overall at the D1 level, just based on the physical size of the players on the roster. The NHL is a different animal, but smaller players are getting more prevalent in the college ranks.

[Mite-dad]

Check out NHL Central scouting list. Only 8 guys under 5' 10". I realize the OP wanted to know about college and USHL, but it is telling. Maybe colleges are choosing smaller guys because they know they will stay around for 4 years.