Single A teams that should move up?

[rainier]

If Roseau was A this year, would they challenge the top A teams for the state title? The town has a huge hockey heritage...... would winning the A title mean as much to Roseau since they have played at the AA level... my thoughts is heck yes!!! I only bring this up since we are talking about schools possibly moving up............

Totally agree on the number of youth hockey participants for each school (except private schools of course). With all the other activities available to kids, the smaller associations have a bigger challenge in compiling teams compared to the huge associations.

Did I digress twice??!!!

I don't think winning an A title would mean anything to Roseau. They are arguably the best HS hockey program of all time that continues to put top level AA teams out there. They won a title not too long ago and won the consolation title last year.

[pekyman]

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Mahtomedi is the Largest A school with the Largest youth program.
They just beat the 3rd and 4th ranked AA team. They are "fine" in A??

If you really want to go that route, I think all the privates should be forced into AA. For the most part, school size does not matter with them.

Someone has to be the largest school, that point is irrelevant. You move them up cause they are the largest A school then do we move up the next biggest cause they are now the largest? The thing with Mahtomedi is they fit the class A model. They were good with Ben Marshall and then had some down years. Now they are good again, probably next year too, but after that they won't be anything special.
Sounds like you are more afraid of Hermantown getting 2nd again.

I don't think we should force all privates to move up, Marshall is moving up, Totino and Blake are past their prime, and besides Breck and maybe Cathedral, the rest have not been good for very long or have ever been good.

Not at all, Mahtomedi is right where they belong. My point is forcing a school half the size of Mahtomedi in population and a significantly smaller youth program makes no sense.
If Hermantown was to move up, they would be the second smallest school behind Roseau.
Looking at a program like Cloquet, I think they would get more involvement in their program if they went into A where they may have a chance. I don't think the kids care.
STAA was plenty excited to win A as many times at they did.

[BSUBeaver]

Yes - youth hockey to HS hockey....
My thought (sort of, since I am just throwing stuff out as it pops into a very old brain)...
Divide the state up geographically....
Then pick the best programs to be AA within that area...
Such as
to be continued...

This is exactly what the Tier 1-Teir 2 system did when they made the move to a two "class" tournament in the 90s. The top 8 teams in a section were considered Tier 1 and played out their tournament. The remaining teams in a section were seeded into the Tier 2 tournament and played out. The Tier 1 section champ and the Tier 2 section champ then went to the Cities to play in the respective State Tournament.

[gitter]

Looking at a program like Cloquet, I think they would get more involvement in their program if they went into A where they may have a chance. I don't think the kids care.

Not a frickin chance. I'm an alumni of Cloquet, and I can tell you we are proud to battle East and Rapids every year to make it to the AA show, even if that means we only make it once every 10 years.

Cloquet is a blue collar town and always will be. The thing that will get more kids involved would be less cost to play, which is not the way this sport is going unfortunately.

[rainier]

Looking at a program like Cloquet, I think they would get more involvement in their program if they went into A where they may have a chance. I don't think the kids care.

Not a frickin chance. I'm an alumni of Cloquet, and I can tell you we are proud to battle East and Rapids every year to make it to the AA show, even if that means we only make it once every 10 years.

Cloquet is a blue collar town and always will be. The thing that will get more kids involved would be less cost to play, which is not the way this sport is going unfortunately.

No way Cloquet will head to single A. Both their Bantam and Pee Wee teams are top ten in AA right now.

[Froggy Richards]

Mahtomedi is the Largest A school with the Largest youth program.
They just beat the 3rd and 4th ranked AA team. They are "fine" in A??

If you really want to go that route, I think all the privates should be forced into AA. For the most part, school size does not matter with them.

Someone has to be the largest school, that point is irrelevant. You move them up cause they are the largest A school then do we move up the next biggest cause they are now the largest? The thing with Mahtomedi is they fit the class A model. They were good with Ben Marshall and then had some down years. Now they are good again, probably next year too, but after that they won't be anything special.
Sounds like you are more afraid of Hermantown getting 2nd again.

I don't think we should force all privates to move up, Marshall is moving up, Totino and Blake are past their prime, and besides Breck and maybe Cathedral, the rest have not been good for very long or have ever been good.

Not at all, Mahtomedi is right where they belong. My point is forcing a school half the size of Mahtomedi in population and a significantly smaller youth program makes no sense.
If Hermantown was to move up, they would be the second smallest school behind Roseau.
Looking at a program like Cloquet, I think they would get more involvement in their program if they went into A where they may have a chance. I don't think the kids care.
STAA was plenty excited to win A as many times at they did.

Cloquet has way too much pride to sandbag in Class A. They spent decades building that program. No way they would ever move down and play with the little guys.

[Froggy Richards]

Mahtomedi is the Largest A school with the Largest youth program.
They just beat the 3rd and 4th ranked AA team. They are "fine" in A??

If you really want to go that route, I think all the privates should be forced into AA. For the most part, school size does not matter with them.

Someone has to be the largest school, that point is irrelevant. You move them up cause they are the largest A school then do we move up the next biggest cause they are now the largest? The thing with Mahtomedi is they fit the class A model. They were good with Ben Marshall and then had some down years. Now they are good again, probably next year too, but after that they won't be anything special.
Sounds like you are more afraid of Hermantown getting 2nd again.

I don't think we should force all privates to move up, Marshall is moving up, Totino and Blake are past their prime, and besides Breck and maybe Cathedral, the rest have not been good for very long or have ever been good.

Not at all, Mahtomedi is right where they belong. My point is forcing a school half the size of Mahtomedi in population and a significantly smaller youth program makes no sense.
If Hermantown was to move up, they would be the second smallest school behind Roseau.
Looking at a program like Cloquet, I think they would get more involvement in their program if they went into A where they may have a chance. I don't think the kids care.
STAA was plenty excited to win A as many times at they did.

Mahtomedi has 10 Mite Teams this year, exactly the same number as Hermantown. So they are working from the same size base. Not sure if they get top players from all of the Associations around them like Hermantown, but if not, then that gives Hermantown an even bigger advantage over them.

[Froggy Richards]

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

A couple of good years? EGF and Warroad maybe. But Hermantown has been in the State Tournament 7 out of the past 9 years. State Championship game in the last four or five. That is not a couple good years or a bout of recent success.

Froggy, instead of bashing a successful youth program in a small school, why don’t you focus your efforts in getting a higher % of the boys in your area involved in hockey?
The more kids you get involved, the better your team will be.

Bashing??? Nobody is bashing anyone here, we're all just stating the obvious that Hermantown is not a Single A program. You're from Hermantown, we all get it. The rest of us are unbiased and just want what's best for the High School game. Maybe all the rest of us are on to something here........

[Just Checking]

HShockeyfan53 wrote this and I screwed up the quote format. Not my day.

"Yeah they've looked pretty good over the past decade but what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be FORCED to play up just because they are successful. They are good for single A and provide a good template for other communities to follow. Just like Warroad like I already mentioned. I think they WILL move up within the next couple of years because they know they can compete.

This will happen to every team that is successful in single A. First way back it was Benilde in the early 2000's, then STA for the better part of the past decade, and now Hermantown. Once Hermantown is gone who will be the next team to turn into the "enemy?" Breck? Mahtomedi? EGF? Warroad?

The cycle will never end.[/quote]"



Correct, That's why we love it. It can always be better. Or improved or modified to fit what we think is best.

Elliott basically proposed moving the cutoff for enrollment down. Not a bad idea, but wherever you draw that line it is still about teams that dominate at A and don't move up. That is what is gets under peoples skin. Private or public. (Some people just hate private but that truely is a different thread)

To me the best solution would be this.

You win a title you are up the next year. No two year deal just move right up for a year. You get back to state, you stay AA until you miss, then you can opt back down. Simple and effective.

Perennial powers in A would get a taste of the big tourney and would find success, I believe. Look at EGF this year. They beat Blaine, Bemidji, others and would have a decent chance to get to state again this year.

STA would have been moved up long ago and might have stayed, might even have won the whole thing, they had some damn good teams prior to this overrated one. Looking back STA won in 2011, by this rule in 2012 they would have moved up. 2012 they went 21-2-2 in regular season with wins over Hill, Edina, Shattuck, and the eventual AA champs Benilde.

Not saying they would have won but they would have had a real good shot at going and contending. This would have kept them out of 2012 champ spot, and A for yet another year. They won 3 in a row keeping Hermantown from winning and moving up as well. This would have then opened the door wider for Hermantown and Mahtomedi who was in STA's section. Maybe this would be a year where one of those 2 or EGF, would have a shot at the AA crown.

Breck, TG, Hermantown, and Warroad would have gotten a taste as well, just going back 10 years, Breck also won back to back in that span.

I don't see a down side. Anyone?

Except missing the possibility of Bruce Plante being a man of his word, and following through this year on committing Harikari if they took second for a fourth straight year.

[Rocketwrister]

Denfeld should move up to AA;

Hermantown should move up AA too.

Plante and Smalley tight? Marshall making the move.

[Mouse in the corner]

Isn't there a part of the Hermantown "group" (for lack of a better way to say it) that feels a little embarassed to be them? I mean, what do you say to the youth teams? Do your best to get to be your best because we are going to need to have you in peak form to blow out Proctor. We will not be able to keep the market cornered on runners up trophies in the JV tourney if you guys don't continue to step up. How do you look at kids from Roseau, Grand Rapids, Cloquest and etc that are all move ups by choice and say "you go give it your best, good luck to you, we are going to stay back where we have it easy and go collect another trophy". It seems to me that even if that is the attitude that some of them have there will be a lot of them that go over to DM to compete at that AA level knowing that win or lose at least they had the guts to try. Something about the hockey personality that seems to be more driven to give it a try rather than lay back and live the easy life and collect trophies for the sake of collecting trophies.

[hshockeyfan53]

Isn't there a part of the Hermantown "group" (for lack of a better way to say it) that feels a little embarassed to be them? I mean, what do you say to the youth teams? Do your best to get to be your best because we are going to need to have you in peak form to blow out Proctor. We will not be able to keep the market cornered on runners up trophies in the JV tourney if you guys don't continue to step up. How do you look at kids from Roseau, Grand Rapids, Cloquest and etc that are all move ups by choice and say "you go give it your best, good luck to you, we are going to stay back where we have it easy and go collect another trophy". It seems to me that even if that is the attitude that some of them have there will be a lot of them that go over to DM to compete at that AA level knowing that win or lose at least they had the guts to try. Something about the hockey personality that seems to be more driven to give it a try rather than lay back and live the easy life and collect trophies for the sake of collecting trophies.

Agree with this completely. Although let's just remember that they have 1 State Championship in the history of their hockey program so the phrase "collecting trophies" is a bit overstated. Had they won 2 or 3 in the last 5 years they would almost certainly be AA by now. The pressure from the parents will force them up eventually. Just a matter of time.

[Mite-dad]

It seems to me that the A teams that are regular attendees at the state tourney have one or both of two advantages. They are in a large metro area and draw hockey families to their school or they are a private school. A teams from outstate that don't draw from a large metro area seem to go through streaks of state tourney appearances. To me the true A schools are these outstate schools like Warroad, Hibbing, Virginia, Little Falls, Fergus Falls, Princeton, DL, Luverne, Hutch, Alex, etc. etc. etc. I don't really know where I'm going with this, but the outstate A teams seem to not be able to dominate for long before another school has a solid group move through.

[Green and White Fan]

I will say, at this time, at the high school level, that winning a class A title would not have the same meaning for Roseau as winning the AA title. If we find over the years that we can not compete with the big schools, the feelings may possibly change. Warroad is a different story. They never had a lot of success at the State tournament when there was only one class. They do not know the feeling of winning it all as the little guy, the same can be said for Hermantown. I don't necessarily feel those teams should move up. If you keep moving up teams that have success at the A level, you would eventually water down that tournament completely. I do truly believe all private schools should be forced in to AA though. Just my opinions.

[Froggy Richards]

Isn't there a part of the Hermantown "group" (for lack of a better way to say it) that feels a little embarassed to be them? I mean, what do you say to the youth teams? Do your best to get to be your best because we are going to need to have you in peak form to blow out Proctor. We will not be able to keep the market cornered on runners up trophies in the JV tourney if you guys don't continue to step up. How do you look at kids from Roseau, Grand Rapids, Cloquest and etc that are all move ups by choice and say "you go give it your best, good luck to you, we are going to stay back where we have it easy and go collect another trophy". It seems to me that even if that is the attitude that some of them have there will be a lot of them that go over to DM to compete at that AA level knowing that win or lose at least they had the guts to try. Something about the hockey personality that seems to be more driven to give it a try rather than lay back and live the easy life and collect trophies for the sake of collecting trophies.

Very well said. That pretty much sums it up.

[green4]

I have seen a few people saying they want all privates to move up to AA now. Lets be logical, some private schools don't recruit at all, schools like Minnehaha and Legacy Christian don't belong anywhere near AA.

[57special]

One off the wall suggestion, borrowed from British Soccer. How about the top three(or two, or four) teams in A move up to AA the next year, and the bottom three ( or whatever) move down to A. It would certainly give the third place game in A some consequence.

I will say that you can't go just off youth enrollment to get your numbers. A place like Highland does OK till HS, when Cretin and the like skim off their top kids. It can be devastating to the quality of a smaller program.

[thestickler07]

One off the wall suggestion, borrowed from British Soccer. How about the top three(or two, or four) teams in A move up to AA the next year, and the bottom three ( or whatever) move down to A. It would certainly give the third place game in A some consequence.

I will say that you can't go just off youth enrollment to get your numbers. A place like Highland does OK till HS, when Cretin and the like skim off their top kids. It can be devastating to the quality of a smaller program.

Its not really off the wall, its a pretty standard promotion/relegation system that hasn't caught on in the United States or at youth levels for a number of reasons.

[mn miracle man]

[/quote]

Yeah they've looked pretty good over the past decade but what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be FORCED to play up just because they are successful. They are good for single A and provide a good template for other communities to follow. Just like Warroad like I already mentioned. I think they WILL move up within the next couple of years because they know they can compete.

This will happen to every team that is successful in single A. First way back it was Benilde in the early 2000's, then STA for the better part of the past decade, and now Hermantown. Once Hermantown is gone who will be the next team to turn into the "enemy?" Breck? Mahtomedi? EGF? Warroad?

The cycle will never end.[/quote]

Very doubtful, their numbers at the youth level are very low and have been now for a number of years, if they were ever going to opt up it would have happened in the mid 2000s

[Froggy Richards]

Yeah they've looked pretty good over the past decade but what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be FORCED to play up just because they are successful. They are good for single A and provide a good template for other communities to follow. Just like Warroad like I already mentioned. I think they WILL move up within the next couple of years because they know they can compete.

This will happen to every team that is successful in single A. First way back it was Benilde in the early 2000's, then STA for the better part of the past decade, and now Hermantown. Once Hermantown is gone who will be the next team to turn into the "enemy?" Breck? Mahtomedi? EGF? Warroad?

The cycle will never end.

Very doubtful, their numbers at the youth level are very low and have been now for a number of years, if they were ever going to opt up it would have happened in the mid 2000s

He was referring to Hermantown, not Warroad.

[rainier]

Isn't there a part of the Hermantown "group" (for lack of a better way to say it) that feels a little embarassed to be them? I mean, what do you say to the youth teams? Do your best to get to be your best because we are going to need to have you in peak form to blow out Proctor. We will not be able to keep the market cornered on runners up trophies in the JV tourney if you guys don't continue to step up. How do you look at kids from Roseau, Grand Rapids, Cloquest and etc that are all move ups by choice and say "you go give it your best, good luck to you, we are going to stay back where we have it easy and go collect another trophy". It seems to me that even if that is the attitude that some of them have there will be a lot of them that go over to DM to compete at that AA level knowing that win or lose at least they had the guts to try. Something about the hockey personality that seems to be more driven to give it a try rather than lay back and live the easy life and collect trophies for the sake of collecting trophies.

Very well said. That pretty much sums it up.

If I were a Hermantown fan, I think the weirdest/most frustrating part would be to watch teams like Grand Rapids and Cloquet play in the 7AA semis, finals, and/or make it to state this year and realize the Hawks beat those teams by a combined score of 21-5!

If Hermantown were in 6AA, it would make more sense that they would stay in A, but 7AA is doable on an almost yearly basis for them and they would almost always be at least a top 3 seed. As I said before, why lose to a top AA-caliber team in the A tourney when you can do that at the AA tourney?

I have to think there is a growing contingency of Hawk fans wanting to opt up.

[Immigrant Fan]

I think folks may be over-thinking this. The guidelines are established regarding who is AA and who is A. The A teams have the OPTION to "opt-up" to AA. Regardless of how good they are year-in and year-out, it is optional to move-up. Any way you slice it, it is the nature of sports that dominant programs evolve. They do it better at their level. The rules are simple, predictable, and reasonably easy to monitor and interpret.

I have enjoyed watching Hermantown and rooting for them at the X. Do I think they should opt-up? Absolutely. Do I begrudge the fact that they stay in A? Not at all. According to the rules they are an A program. So, they are an A program; If they make it to the X, then good for them. I am through thinking about it and ready to watch some hockey.

Am I glad Grand Rapids opts-up? Absolutely. Am I proud of them that a small school is trying to stick with the big boys? You bet. Do I wish they made it to state more often? Of course. Ok, that's it. Through thinking about it. Time to watch some hockey.

[thestickler07]

If Hermantown were in 6AA, it would make more sense that they would stay in A, but 7AA is doable on an almost yearly basis for them and they would almost always be at least a top 3 seed. As I said before, why lose to a top AA-caliber team in the A tourney when you can do that at the AA tourney?

I have to think there is a growing contingency of Hawk fans wanting to opt up.

I'd take 2-3 section 7AA titles and a semifinal or two over 5 straight A runner-ups.

[Nebhoc471]

The concerns of creating a watered down A tournament from having too many opt ups are overstated.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the problem with Tier I and II was that teams weren't assigned a tier until after the regular season? That's what I think hurt Tier II. You had a bunch of .500 teams or worse competing for state bids.

If some of the current "A" powers opted up the "A" tournament would still be fine. You'd still get teams to state with decent records. The quality of play might suffer a little, but the interest in "A" would remain the same in terms of gate numbers and TV ratings.

"A" pretty much only gets interest from the communities in the tournament, and there was plenty last season from New Prague, Orono, and Luverne. Same could be said this year if teams like Faribault, Delano, Kennedy, or Spring Lake Park make it.

[greenway1969]

Tier assignment wasn't made until the end of the year by seedings of all teams in the section by the coaches. The top 8 teams were assigned Tier I while the rest of the teams were assigned Tier II. In one of those years, Greenway was seeded #9 and Hermantown was #8. A "deal" was made and Hermantown moved to #9 and Greenway moved up to #8. Even at that time Hermantown was chasing trophies. Greenway was crushed by Cloquet in the opening round, don't know how Hermantown did. But Greenway would have rather competed in Tier I and lose rather than be in Tier II and win. The other year Greenway ended up in Tier II and won it. It was ok to win it but there was no big celebration, even by the players.