Single A teams that should move up?

[elliott70]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Alexandria 1090
Bloomington Kennedy 1180
Chisago Lakes 1030

Mahtomedi 1140
Mankato West 1030
New Prague 1120

Northfield 1140
St Louis Park 1200
St Paul Highland Park 1000

Waconia 1430
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

[nahc]

Elliott would any of these schools be competative at the AA level....... probably not........ in my opinion....

[Froggy Richards]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Alexandria 1090
Bloomington Kennedy 1180
Chisago Lakes 1030

Mahtomedi 1140
Mankato West 1030
New Prague 1120

Northfield 1140
St Louis Park 1200
St Paul Highland Park 1000

Waconia 14030
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

High School Enrollment has nothing to do with success in HS Hockey. It's not like Football, Basketball, Wrestling or other sports where anyone can just buy a pair of used shoes and go play. Youth numbers are what matter. Minneapolis schools probably have the highest enrollment in the State. IF NOBODY PLAYS HOCKEY, THEN WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

[goldy313]

It depends by what you mean as competitive, many of those schools play AA teams all season and do just fine. Mankato West has been a top team in the Big Nine for nearly a decade, clearly they'd be competitive in 1AA. If you mean competitive at a state tournament level, well there usually aren't more than 10-12 AA teams that are year in and year out.

Those schools near the cutoff for enrollment will, in all probability, be AA next year as it's pretty likely some schools will drop co-ops.

[pekyman]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Alexandria 1090
Bloomington Kennedy 1180
Chisago Lakes 1030

Mahtomedi 1140
Mankato West 1030
New Prague 1120

Northfield 1140
St Louis Park 1200
St Paul Highland Park 1000

Waconia 14030
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

Detroit Lakes 1,142

[green4]

New Prague will eventually move up I'm guessing. The city is growing rapidly and there appears to still be a lot of land to develop. Looking at age demographics 31% of the population is under 18, the highest of any age group, while 67% is under the age of 44, prime for starting families.

[elliott70]

Elliott would any of these schools be competative at the AA level....... probably not........ in my opinion....

How many teams are not competitive at AA that are AA now?
Single A for that matter?

Do we want tier 1 - Tier 2? I don't think so.

But just looking at it why are some pretty big schools single A?

Do we need another class like football? I would hope not, but like football we have Edina (Eden Prairie) and some others that are dominant year in and year out. Do we pull them out so that others like Bemidji (not a good example) but Grand Rapids and others that are competitive on a regular basis but only on rare occasion are they in the final with some chance at being the champs?

Again, I don't think so. But the MSHSL doesn't know either. STA got hammered (not that that bothered me) to move up. Hermantown is getting it now. We have teams that have moved up and are somewhat competitive (Cloquet, Roseau) and teams that have moved down (Kennedy, Minneapolis) - it all seems so ... random(?).

[elliott70]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Alexandria 1090
Bloomington Kennedy 1180
Chisago Lakes 1030

Mahtomedi 1140
Mankato West 1030
New Prague 1120

Northfield 1140
St Louis Park 1200
St Paul Highland Park 1000

Waconia 14030
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

High School Enrollment has nothing to do with success in HS Hockey. It's not like Football, Basketball, Wrestling or other sports where anyone can just buy a pair of used shoes and go play. Youth numbers are what matter. Minneapolis schools probably have the highest enrollment in the State. IF NOBODY PLAYS HOCKEY, THEN WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

Yes - youth hockey to HS hockey....
My thought (sort of, since I am just throwing stuff out as it pops into a very old brain)...
Divide the state up geographically....
Then pick the best programs to be AA within that area...
Such as
to be continued...

[Froggy Richards]

Elliott would any of these schools be competative at the AA level....... probably not........ in my opinion....

How many teams are not competitive at AA that are AA now?
Single A for that matter?

Do we want tier 1 - Tier 2? I don't think so.

But just looking at it why are some pretty big schools single A?

Do we need another class like football? I would hope not, but like football we have Edina (Eden Prairie) and some others that are dominant year in and year out. Do we pull them out so that others like Bemidji (not a good example) but Grand Rapids and others that are competitive on a regular basis but only on rare occasion are they in the final with some chance at being the champs?

Again, I don't think so. But the MSHSL doesn't know either. STA got hammered (not that that bothered me) to move up. Hermantown is getting it now. We have teams that have moved up and are somewhat competitive (Cloquet, Roseau) and teams that have moved down (Kennedy, Minneapolis) - it all seems so ... random(?).

Not random at all. It's all about Youth Numbers and the strength of the Program. Grand Rapids, Cloquet and Roseau have top-notch programs and take a lot of Pride in that. They want to compete with the best. They are simply not going to play in the JV league, even if they don't make it to State every year. Simply making it to State is not what's important to them. That type of thinking does not exist at places like Hermantown. They hide behind enrollment, which we all know has nothing to do with success in High School Hockey.

[urban iceman]

If they move all those teams up, you might as well go back to one class.

[hshockeyfan53]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

[green4]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

[Froggy Richards]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

If that was the goal they would have left it one class. The goal of Single A was to give smaller, less established, Cinderella programs a fighting chance to experience the State tournament.

Instead, we have the same team in the Championship game 5-6 years in a row, with everyone else fighting for scraps. If that isn't a sign that you're not a Single A program, then I don't know what is.

[Froggy Richards]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Exactly

[justlivin]

How about putting all private schools in one section for each class A/AA then there would only be one private school representative for each class. They could all assemble at a neutral site and have there section games. The winners from each class go on to the State tournament.
Might cut down on the transfers. IMO

[RRubberbeeskit]

Talk that Hermantown and Mahtomedi should move got me looking at school enrollment.

Perhaps these school should jump to AA...
School approximate school enrollment

Alexandria 1090
Bloomington Kennedy 1180
Chisago Lakes 1030

Mahtomedi 1140
Mankato West 1030
New Prague 1120

Northfield 1140
St Louis Park 1200
St Paul Highland Park 1000

Waconia 14030
Chaska 1150
Henry Sibley 1170

Minneapolis ????

Detroit Lakes 1,142

Peky: I believe Detroit Lakes has 2 kids from Perham on the HS Roster. I am unsure of any others but the coop with Perham adds approx 450 to the DL enrollment of just over 700. It would never make sense for that coop to move up unless they truly became a powerhouse. It certainly is nice for the kids to stay in school in the hometown but kind of sucks that you have to take into account the entire enrollment of Perham for 2 kids that want to play a sport that is not offered in Perham. Yes I know the last half should be on the enrollment / eligibility thread

[hshockeyfan53]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Exactly

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

[pekyman]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Mahtomedi is the Largest A school with the Largest youth program.
They just beat the 3rd and 4th ranked AA team. They are "fine" in A??

If you really want to go that route, I think all the privates should be forced into AA. For the most part, school size does not matter with them.

[pekyman]

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Exactly

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

Well said

[Froggy Richards]

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Exactly

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

A couple of good years? EGF and Warroad maybe. But Hermantown has been in the State Tournament 7 out of the past 9 years. State Championship game in the last four or five. That is not a couple good years or a bout of recent success.

[greenway1969]

Enrollment has everything to do with competitiveness. Greenway has two teams at every level in youth hockey. Their high school enrollment is 239. I'm not including N-K enrollment because they contribute very little if no varsity players. If you multiply it by 8 or 9 or 10 which would bring it in line with the large metro schools, Greenway would be competitive at the AA level. Similarly with Rapids, double the size of Rapids and you bet you can potentially double the size of its youth program and they'd increase the number of trips to state. Those schools with a hockey tradition (like the Range schools) would probably opt up if they had the same enrollments they did at their peak enrollment years. You'll always have schools like Hermantown that are satisfied with annual trips to state and runner-up finishes but other programs like Roseau, Rapids, Bemidji and Cloquet have too much pride and want to compete with the best and will opt up.

[pekyman]

Exactly

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

A couple of good years? EGF and Warroad maybe. But Hermantown has been in the State Tournament 7 out of the past 9 years. State Championship game in the last four or five. That is not a couple good years or a bout of recent success.

Froggy, instead of bashing a successful youth program in a small school, why don’t you focus your efforts in getting a higher % of the boys in your area involved in hockey?
The more kids you get involved, the better your team will be.

[hshockeyfan53]

Exactly

I see your point here. However, once these small programs become successful then we just force them to move up because of a couple good years? Where is the cut off? Warroad, EGF, and Hermantown are all examples of these small communities who have had bouts of success in single A recently. Do we force them up because they do things the right way and are successful?

Hockey seems to be the only sport in the state where there is this pressure where if you're successful you must not be in the right class so move up.

Just seems a little off. I love it when Warroad gets to the state tournament even if it's more than other schools because they do things the right way in that community and they play the game the right way.

A couple of good years? EGF and Warroad maybe. But Hermantown has been in the State Tournament 7 out of the past 9 years. State Championship game in the last four or five. That is not a couple good years or a bout of recent success.

Yeah they've looked pretty good over the past decade but what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be FORCED to play up just because they are successful. They are good for single A and provide a good template for other communities to follow. Just like Warroad like I already mentioned. I think they WILL move up within the next couple of years because they know they can compete.

This will happen to every team that is successful in single A. First way back it was Benilde in the early 2000's, then STA for the better part of the past decade, and now Hermantown. Once Hermantown is gone who will be the next team to turn into the "enemy?" Breck? Mahtomedi? EGF? Warroad?

The cycle will never end.

[green4]

I think we need to be careful when we are all calling for teams that are successful to move up. Imagine if Breck, Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Totino, etc all moved up. What a brutal single A tournament that would be. There's already teams that make it to state that don't belong there. It's nice watching elite teams play in BOTH the A and AA tournaments.

Is that not the point of the two class system though? The best teams in the AA and giving new teams a chance in A.
If you took out the top A teams your single A tourney might look like this:
1A: New Prague
2A: Delano
3A: Luverne
4A: SPA (Mahtomedi is fine in A IMO though)
5A: Spring lake park
6A: Alexandria/Apollo/Sartell/Fergas Falls
7A: Demfield/Hibbing
8A: TRF

Mahtomedi is the Largest A school with the Largest youth program.
They just beat the 3rd and 4th ranked AA team. They are "fine" in A??

If you really want to go that route, I think all the privates should be forced into AA. For the most part, school size does not matter with them.

Someone has to be the largest school, that point is irrelevant. You move them up cause they are the largest A school then do we move up the next biggest cause they are now the largest? The thing with Mahtomedi is they fit the class A model. They were good with Ben Marshall and then had some down years. Now they are good again, probably next year too, but after that they won't be anything special.
Sounds like you are more afraid of Hermantown getting 2nd again.

I don't think we should force all privates to move up, Marshall is moving up, Totino and Blake are past their prime, and besides Breck and maybe Cathedral, the rest have not been good for very long or have ever been good.

[nahc]

If Roseau was A this year, would they challenge the top A teams for the state title? The town has a huge hockey heritage...... would winning the A title mean as much to Roseau since they have played at the AA level... my thoughts is heck yes!!! I only bring this up since we are talking about schools possibly moving up............

Totally agree on the number of youth hockey participants for each school (except private schools of course). With all the other activities available to kids, the smaller associations have a bigger challenge in compiling teams compared to the huge associations.

Did I digress twice??!!!