curtiscurve wrote:My God. There wasn't this much uproar about STA. I think just because Plante is honest about his intentions he is getting hammered. Larson from Breck hides behind some bogus excuse that the school remains about academics and everyone just accepts it. Warroad had a run like Htown is having and there wasn't this uproar. Ferguson Falls owned section 4A from 97-03, and Little Falls dominated it from 05-09. We're they supposed to move up too? The biggest difference is where these teams get their players. The private schools have numerous communities to pick players. I know those Hawk haters will chain they have all sorts of kids that move into the community, well show a school with all players who were born and raised in that community. Hermantown has built a great program and now every one wants to vilify them. They are a small school and are where they belong.
So a team, no matter how good they are, should stay in A if they are a small school?
It seems to me that if a team can consistently compete well in AA, then they should play in AA, no matter what size their school is.
And again, why doesn't this apply to their youth program?
Comparing Fergus Falls, Little Falls,and Warroad to Hermantown is ridiculous. And for the record, Warroad took blasting year in , year out, all year long during its time atop Class A.
I’m a Hermantown guy. 55810 zip code (rim shot, please). My son was fortunate to play for HAHA and then the HHS program from age five until he graduated a few years ago.
I don’t claim to be an expert on all things Hermantown, but I’m stuck in an airport (never again complain about MN snow removal!) and am already spending more time following Twitter with Tourney feeds instead of actually working so here’s a few thoughts.
“Hermantown should move to AA” – There are certainly indications they are at least preparing to make a move (HS schedule getting much stronger, youth program plays AA and has strong #’s; note: I don’t get the complaints that they play AA at Youth and then play Single A in HS…wouldn’t your association want to learn to compete at the next level before just making a jump?). Demographics have changed where now they can compete with virtually anyone in 7AA so don’t disagree they should test the waters. It’s the next step. I don’t agree with all of the arguments excoriating them to move, but would support the move based on the most simple premise…they are good enough to do so. I’d rather see them put forth the work required and strive for excellence vs. “we’re where we belong”.
Human nature tends to dictate that change only occurs by force, a moral imperative to support the greater good or if there is something tangibly better on the other side of the change. What actual incentive would Hermantown have to make the move? Do the reasons noted on the forum advocating the move up meet those change requirements? They generally do, but here’s why I think you see hesitation:
• Bruce Plante - Hysterical dude. Good Coach. Kids love him, parents love him, school administration seems just fine with him. This could be his last year to coach or he could be at it for another 20. While he’s at the helm I don’t see him driving the decision to move up, then retire and leave that commitment in the lap of his successor. The guy takes great pride in the program he Built. From. Nothing. and will protect and nurture it until he’s done Posters on here love to critique Bruce, but you’ve (mostly) got it all wrong. He believes in developing the kids, protecting his program and making an extra-curricular sport part of the entire educational experience. Just like all of us, he doesn’t walk on water but your program should be so lucky to have a Bruce Plante as coach. I always think of Steve Spurrier, “The Old Ball Coach” when I think of Bruce; says stuff he shouldn’t, reacts viscerally, feels bad about it, does it again, laughs, fights with passion, eats humble pie, does it all again. He’s human. He’s also earned the right to lead the program as he sees fit and there would be substantial animosity created in the community if an AA push by parents is what drives him to retire. Some would say that means he stands in the way of progress. Some would say that’s loyalty and respect.
• Always the Bridesmaid. This weighs on the program. If some of the best teams and players your program has ever produced can’t win it all in Single A, is moving to AA the answer? The program gets ridiculed for never winning it all, yet the belief is that they should move up a class so their odds of winning it all get even longer? Keep in mind, if they were in 7A vs. 5A consistently the past 10 years the 5-peat probabaly does not happen. Those that think they would have won 7AA multiple times the past 10 years are delusional….and I have the consistent youth hockey defeats to those 7AA programs as the proof. That competitive balance has now changed and my guess is that if they get the elephant off their back, the A vs. AA decision point looks more clear than it does today.
• Parents. The recent article regarding a Cloquet school board member raising the A vs AA topic is a direct reflection of today’s hockey parent culture. There are loads of parents who don’t believe in the Once in Twenty Years to State mantra. I’m not criticizing them, but rather calling out something that those stating every successful Single A program should opt up and “play against the big boys” don’t seem to grasp about the hockey landscape.
To be blunt - Hockey is very expensive, has morphed into an all-consuming activity for a family and those families are looking for some ROI. They see others getting attention and having success so they want in on the action. I have yet to meet a hockey parent anywhere that is anything but a “Type A”. Those that deny it are, well, in denial (we’ve all seen the totally laid back hockey mom/dad turn into a raving lunatic if Little Johnny is slighted). It’s not hard to make an argument for playing at the X for a chance at a State A championship in front of 5,000+ people with television, radio and print media beats sitting at home waiting for the snow to melt while mumbling “we’ll show Randolph next year”. There needs to be some reality that it’s not 1969 anymore. Jetland, Millen and Broten aren’t coming out the locker room door and a single class is not coming back. Further, while I generally agree with the old saying “if you’re good enough, the scouts will find you”, I can attest to numerous opportunities Hermantown kids have received in the hockey world as a result of exposure at the X. Again, I’m an advocate for them to move up but there are powerful, primal Momma and Daddy Bear forces at play here and in every program in the State.
• The Duluth East model. IMO, if you are from Greater Minnesota and want to be relevant on the AA State stage you need to follow their model. That means a dramatic shift in $$, strength of schedule and time commitment. From an outsider’s perspective, it appears Grand Rapids is moving more toward this model. Participation fees for my son’s senior year at Hermantown were ~$300. I’ll say it again; $300. That all changes once you’re renting a coach bus for 10+ trips to the metro each season and your kid now gets home at 3 AM following a weeknight game in Mendota Heights. There are plenty of families that can handle the larger fees and time, but there are also many that cannot.
• Administration. In a sidebar while meeting with administrators on other subjects, they seemed pretty ambivalent about any move. They have their hands full constructing two new schools and I don’t get the sense a pressing concern is the hockey team’s classification. The AD's office isn’t exactly visionary, either. All the STA supporters probably have a different read but IMO they made the move up, at least partially, due to public perception of their school…a school that relies on donors, endowments and tuition payments for survival. The future of MSHSL hockey and the ability to fill classrooms with Hermantown kids is not at risk here so I don’t think HHS Admins are concerned the school reputation will be sullied if they play single A hockey. If anything the opposite is probably true as those open enrollees bring State $$.
• The Pipeline. No question there are very good numbers in the youth program. The outdoor ice and relatively inexpensive fees help draw in families but I think results, not numbers is what creates pause. On a State level and in the more prestigious youth tournaments results have been average. The current Pee Wee AA (22-19-6) and Bantam AA (14-26-3) teams certainly did not set the world on fire and my kid played in plenty of Sunday morning toilet bowl games. Does enthusiasm and youth participation decline if the program moves up? Or, is it even more invigorated? It’s probably a question that only gets answered once you make the move. Of note, a glaring flaw of the youth program is an inability to develop goaltenders…this always seems to be the missing link on the HS teams.
This is a shock to many on here but the Single A kids hold the Tourney in awe, are honored to represent their schools and consider playing in it the highlight of their hockey careers. When the time came to box up my son’s high school years, one of the few sport mementos he chose not to discard were his runner-up medals from the State hockey tournament….in fact, he didn’t even box them up and they still hang from a senior team picture in his old room.
Hermantown people seem to be pretty quiet on this (perhaps they spent all their energy trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to debate HSHW and stickler in the past) and don’t seem to recognize what they’ve built. Hermantown has fought for relevancy and now that they found it, there is a bit of an “I’m the dog that actually caught the postal truck, what do I do now?” that is occurring. This is natural and the community will figure it out. How fantastic is it to have a community discussion based on success vs. decline. If they make the move or stay where they are, I’ll support them and joyfully watch the next kid live his dream of wearing a varsity sweater with a Hawk on the chest…..but I’d like you even better if your family moved to town and helped pay for those new schools.
nota612er wrote:
“Hermantown should move to AA” – There are certainly indications they are at least preparing to make a move (HS schedule getting much stronger, youth program plays AA and has strong #’s; note: I don’t get the complaints that they play AA at Youth and then play Single A in HS…wouldn’t your association want to learn to compete at the next level before just making a jump?). But the argument has been "We are where we belong." Which makes people wonder why they don't play in A at youth if that's where they "belong". Haven't they been playing long enough in AA at youth where they should be prepared to make said jump by now? And besides, Plante has given zero indication that this team is planning on opting up.
Demographics have changed where now they can compete with virtually anyone in 7AA so don’t disagree they should test the waters. It’s the next step. I don’t agree with all of the arguments excoriating them to move, but would support the move based on the most simple premise…they are good enough to do so. I’d rather see them put forth the work required and strive for excellence vs. “we’re where we belong”. I completely agree. They are good enough to do so.
• Always the Bridesmaid. This weighs on the program. If some of the best teams and players your program has ever produced can’t win it all in Single A, is moving to AA the answer? The program gets ridiculed for never winning it all, yet the belief is that they should move up a class so their odds of winning it all get even longer? Keep in mind, if they were in 7A vs. 5A consistently the past 10 years the 5-peat probabaly does not happen. Who would have beat them in 7A the past ten years? And apparently Duluth Marshall thinks moving to AA without ever winning the A title is the answer-and Hermantown HAS won it all in A.
Those that think they would have won 7AA multiple times the past 10 years are delusional….and I have the consistent youth hockey defeats to those 7AA programs as the proof. I happen to think its delusional to think Hermantown wouldn't have won 7AA a couple times the past ten years.
• The Pipeline. No question there are very good numbers in the youth program. The outdoor ice and relatively inexpensive fees help draw in families but I think results, not numbers is what creates pause. On a State level and in the more prestigious youth tournaments results have been average. The current Pee Wee AA (22-19-6) and Bantam AA (14-26-3) teams certainly did not set the world on fire and my kid played in plenty of Sunday morning toilet bowl games. In AA. If the youth team was in A, they would be just as dominant as they are at the HS level. Hermantown competes very well in AA at the youth levels, and not kicking butt in AA the way you do in A is not a good enough excuse. It just isn't.
Does enthusiasm and youth participation decline if the program moves up? Or, is it even more invigorated? It’s probably a question that only gets answered once you make the move. I think this question is already answered. Look at teams that opt up: Roseau represented at the AA tourney very well last year, Bemidji just played a 1 goal game (en) vs Edina, Rapids and Cloquet have some superb youth teams about to get to the HS level, enthusiasm is sky high at Duluth Marshall over their opting up as they got some great kids from Hermantown, and STA continues to get even better as a AA team.
This is a shock to many on here but the Single A kids hold the Tourney in awe, are honored to represent their schools and consider playing in it the highlight of their hockey careers. When the time came to box up my son’s high school years, one of the few sport mementos he chose not to discard were his runner-up medals from the State hockey tournament….in fact, he didn’t even box them up and they still hang from a senior team picture in his old room. And the kids would feel the same way about the AA tourney, but they just might not make it every year.
Hermantown people seem to be pretty quiet on this (perhaps they spent all their energy trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to debate HSHW and stickler in the past) and don’t seem to recognize what they’ve built. And all of this debating by the Hermantown faithful and Plante about STA is what opens them up to ridicule when they try to defend staying in A.
We agree that the Hawks should move up because they are good enough, and that is the bottom line.
When does the decision to opt up have to be made? Has the deadline passed? I just cannot see that they can allow Marshall to gain an advantage in access to the hockey talent in the area. If they do, they risk not even being able to compete at the A level in a few years if they are as thin in some areas as they believe.
Let's settle something on the number of players and teams Hermantown has. HAHA plays AA and A and B at BN and AA and B at PW's. They usually have 3-4 squirt team, one A and 3 B's.
The next will be hard for some to swallow. The BN B team and parts of the BN A team historically is made up of players with the commitment level of recreational players with limited skills where if the parents had to pay higher fees would not play.
They play AA because MN hockey changed the youth rules. They hav always played A prior to that against DAHA and northern teams. The difference here is DAHA is made up of multiple neighborhoods that feed Denfeld or east.
Bottom line is, Hermantown is a class AA caliber program. They could compete and be very successful. They are so far choosing not to which is up to them, class A right now is full of class AA caliber teams. There are so many programs in class A that could be just fine in class AA that class A has turned into a nice league. I am ok with Hermantown staying in class A as long as they want, but I am not a fan of them. If I was a fan of them, I would want them to play in class AA
Stay in A is fine. Just don't make a mockery of it by running your top line with 90 seconds left in a game when you are up by 6-0. The last two goals were unnecessary and is things like that which drives threads such as these.
JohnnyBuck wrote:Stay in A is fine. Just don't make a mockery of it by running your top line with 90 seconds left in a game when you are up by 6-0. The last two goals were unnecessary and is things like that which drives threads such as these.
defense wrote:Comparing Fergus Falls, Little Falls,and Warroad to Hermantown is ridiculous. And for the record, Warroad took blasting year in , year out, all year long during its time atop Class A.
All I am saying is with smaller schools (Less than 1000 students), it can go the other way fast. As you said, Warroad took some heat and now they have come back to the pack and have not been to state since 2010. I will always say that a private small school should move up once they have established themselves because they openly recruit and players go there because of their hockey dominance. Hermantown has had a really good run and maybe they could take 7AA for the next few years, but it is their choice to stay at class A and they should not have to feel bad about it. One thing I know is that having really good teams in the class A state field makes Friday afternoon and Sat. morning/afternoon sessions that much more enjoyable.
The logic of being a small community and all of that can be used for Roseau too....but they opt up! They have the facilities, but who's to say that Hermantown doesn't have the ability to build these. For as big as hockey is up in a Duluth suburb, I see no reason to stay in A! There is your example of a small school making a jump that ISN'T a private school. I use to love watching Hermantown but Plante whines too much, especially when ppl dish out what he has thrown at STA for many years.
Nota: Great post. Its up to Hermantown to decide where they should play. It would be interesting to see how this years team would do in the AA playoffs since they are so talented. Also would love to see the team make a Southern swing like the Hounds but sure do understand the $$$ challenge and skater wear and tear........ Good luck today but will be rooting for the "Davids" when they play your "Goliath"...
ilovemesomehockey wrote:When does the decision to opt up have to be made? Has the deadline passed?
The new section assignments that will be announced within the next 48 hours are for the next two seasons (2015/16 and 2016/17). I believe that a team could petition MSHSL to opt up from A to AA for the second year of that cycle, but that doesn't happen very often.
So Hermantown can't opt up next year, and it's possible (but unlikely) that they'd move up the year after. If they were going to move up in the near future, it'd most likely be in 2017.
What seed did warroad get this year in section 8A? I think my argument about Hermantown is the amount of AA games they play during the year and most of these being non conference probably. I think the number is 11-12. That's almost half of the games they play are against AA teams plus that number will probably just go higher next year.
So...they play peewee AA, bantam AA, and almost half of their games against AA opponents. However, then they play in the class A state tourney. Yeah that makes sense.
I've heard from multiple sources it's all plante! Also, like I said in previous post...don't let class A teams schedule NON CONFERENCE games against AA teams and watch how quickly they go AA.
observer wrote:Isn't Hermantown considered a suburb of Duluth? Like Edina or Eden Prairie?
It's a suburb of Duluth, as has been stated numerous times in this thread. The demographics are nothing like Edina or Eden Prairie, however. Hermantown has much more in common with a town like Sartell, which is just north of St. Cloud.
observer wrote:Isn't Hermantown considered a suburb of Duluth? Like Edina or Eden Prairie?
It's a suburb of Duluth, as has been stated numerous times in this thread. The demographics are nothing like Edina or Eden Prairie, however. Hermantown has much more in common with a town like Sartell, which is just north of St. Cloud.
Obviously Sartell isn't like an Edina or EP, but its actually a pretty wealthy suburb as far as towns in Central MN go. Not sure what Hermantown is like though so maybe your comparison is spot on.. How big is Hermantown's population??
Sotaboy wrote:The logic of being a small community and all of that can be used for Roseau too....but they opt up! They have the facilities, but who's to say that Hermantown doesn't have the ability to build these. For as big as hockey is up in a Duluth suburb, I see no reason to stay in A! There is your example of a small school making a jump that ISN'T a private school. I use to love watching Hermantown but Plante whines too much, especially when ppl dish out what he has thrown at STA for many years.
Roseau was in 8A until 1998. The reason they opted up was they could not get past Warroad in section 8A. Warroad represented 8A from 1994-1997 and after the 97 year Roseau opted up (and Won 8AA the next year). Grand Rapids has opted up since day 1 and that is their choice. Personally, I think they (Hermantown) would benefit from opting up, but it is not my place to chastise them. Schools like Grand Rapids has been able to keep top players from jumping to Juniors early because they opt up. If Hermantown starts losing players early, it may result in the powers that be there to make the move. Until THEY make that decision, I am going to enjoy watching their skilled team play at the X.
[quote="Tigers33"]What seed did warroad get this year in section 8A? I think my argument about Hermantown is the amount of AA games they play during the year and most of these being non conference probably. I think the number is 11-12. That's almost half of the games they play are against AA teams plus that number will probably just go higher next year.
So...they play peewee AA, bantam AA, and almost half of their games against AA opponents. However, then they play in the class A state tourney. Yeah that makes sense.
I've heard from multiple sources it's all plante! Also, like I said in previous post...don't let class A teams schedule NON CONFERENCE games against AA teams and watch how quickly they go AA.[/quote]
Warroad was the #3 seed in 8A this year. They had good run for about 10 years but declining enrollment and numbers has brought them back to the pack. They had a heck of a team last year that lost in the section final to the eventual state champ EGF in 2OT. They barely have enough kids in their program to field two teams at each level. I looked and this year they had 2 peewee and Bantam teams with about 10 or 11 skaters on each team. Hardly on the same level as Hermantown or Roseau.
hockey9011 wrote:
Obviously Sartell isn't like an Edina or EP, but its actually a pretty wealthy suburb as far as towns in Central MN go. Not sure what Hermantown is like though so maybe your comparison is spot on.. How big is Hermantown's population??
Hermantown's population is only about 10,000, though the school district also includes some sparsely populated areas north of town. It is fairly well-to-do by northern MN standards, but pretty much a middle-class city in the grand scheme of things.
I posted this in a different thread earlier in the year......Hermantown has among the lowest F/R lunch rates in the state, around 9% if I remember correctly, Lakeville North has the lowest at around 6.8%. The state average is around 30%. Hermantown is fairly well to do by any standard, no one else in 7A is even close to that.
goldy313 wrote:I posted this in a different thread earlier in the year......Hermantown has among the lowest F/R lunch rates in the state, around 9% if I remember correctly, Lakeville North has the lowest at around 6.8%. The state average is around 30%. Hermantown is fairly well to do by any standard, no one else in 7A is even close to that.
So should we just separate the classes by average income? Maybe we could have the Free and Reduced lunch be the determining factor. 15% could be the line. We could rename the classes too. White Collar and Blue Collar. Above 15% F/R is in the Blue Collar Class. Below 15% is the White Collar Class. I'm all for it as ALL private schools would be in the White Collar Class!
Tigers33 wrote:What seed did warroad get this year in section 8A? I think my argument about Hermantown is the amount of AA games they play during the year and most of these being non conference probably. I think the number is 11-12. That's almost half of the games they play are against AA teams plus that number will probably just go higher next year.
So...they play peewee AA, bantam AA, and almost half of their games against AA opponents. However, then they play in the class A state tourney. Yeah that makes sense.
I've heard from multiple sources it's all plante! Also, like I said in previous post...don't let class A teams schedule NON CONFERENCE games against AA teams and watch how quickly they go AA.
Warroad was the #3 seed in 8A this year. They had good run for about 10 years but declining enrollment and numbers has brought them back to the pack. They had a heck of a team last year that lost in the section final to the eventual state champ EGF in 2OT. They barely have enough kids in their program to field two teams at each level. I looked and this year they had 2 peewee and Bantam teams with about 10 or 11 skaters on each team. Hardly on the same level as Hermantown or Roseau.
Hermantown had 37 players come out for hockey this year and they took 35 of them. Hermantown isn't picking from 50 or 60 kids like some people suggest. They just do well with what they have.
